36 réponses à ce sujet

[Darkhour]

Ar we going to forced to be pansies?  This is the other side of the coin concerning paragon Sheps and the events leading up to the Arrival conclusion.

I noticed that we don't seem to get choices on how we react to things. Take Shepard and that little boy. Even if you've been playing an uncaring socipath, Shepard is clearly not. I recently play a "kill em" all renegade who did not form emotional attachments and I didn't upgrade the Normandy to up thedeath count. When Jack died Shepard "cried out" like he gave a damn about Jack as a person, which was completely out of character for MY Shepard.

Why is canon Shepard, with his emotions and compassion, being forced on the player?  Not every playthrough is going to be paragon. I do have some heartless Shepards, but if we are forced to be empathic and caring what is the point if MY Shepard is going to keep having out of character moments forced upon him. 

[kaiki01]

Because....Bioware is writing a character that makes logical sense. If Shepard was a sociopath he wouldn't be in the military as he would not pass the psychological exam.

[Comsky159]

This is the main thing I don't like about RPG's. Because everyone has their own highly specific image of Shepard we never really get to see anything really intimate relevant to his background or ingame. The question is, are we willing to sacrifice a little bit of our Shepard to add depth to his character.
Keep in mind that in constructing Shepard we work in unity as authors with Bioware. They do the grunt work and we get to make the choices within their framework. I think ultimately you'll find Bioware will get the balance right. Have faith.

[Dr. rotinaj]

kaiki01 wrote...

Because....Bioware is writing a character that makes logical sense. If Shepard was a sociopath he wouldn't be in the military as he would not pass the psychological exam.

This.
 Complaining about this is like complaining that you couldn't join Saren and the reapers in ME1 or that you couldn't just leave Kirkwall in DA2. Sometimes character traits and plot elements have to be established for the story to make sense.

[JeffZero]

There's something else that doesn't seem to have been addressed here.

In the demo, the option chosen was the upper-left -- the Paragon choice. There's no reason to believe Shepard would have reacted quite the same if "you're on your own" (or whatever it was) was selected...

[Dr. rotinaj]

JeffZero wrote...

There's something else that doesn't seem to have been addressed here.

In the demo, the option chosen was the upper-left -- the Paragon choice. There's no reason to believe Shepard would have reacted quite the same if "you're on your own" (or whatever it was) was selected...

I think the OP is refering to what happens before the dialogue choice ( Shepard hears the kid, walks back to the vent and says "come here").

[Ieldra]

Darkhour wrote...
Why is canon Shepard, with his emotions and compassion, being forced on the player?  Not every playthrough is going to be paragon. I do have some heartless Shepards, but if we are forced to be empathic and caring what is the point if MY Shepard is going to keep having out of character moments forced upon him. 

Shepard is canonically empathic and compassionate? Can't say I ever noticed anything of that. In fact, in so many conversations Shepard comes across as standing above all concerns and being basically emotionless, which I'd like to have an option to avoid, especially in romances.

You may have a point with the example from the SM you gave, but face it: having the dialogue wheel pop up at that point would've disrupted the flow of the scene too much that we'd all think it ridiculous. I can live with a minor inconsistency like that, especially since I don't think many players would want to play Shepard as quite as heartless as you. Also you seem to mistake the Renegade mindset here. A Renegade does what must be done, and be it unpleasant. It doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't care. 

[Kadzin]

Dr. rotinaj wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

There's something else that doesn't seem to have been addressed here.

In the demo, the option chosen was the upper-left -- the Paragon choice. There's no reason to believe Shepard would have reacted quite the same if "you're on your own" (or whatever it was) was selected...

I think the OP is refering to what happens before the dialogue choice ( Shepard hears the kid, walks back to the vent and says "come here").

You never know, maybe he wants to eat the kid and not help him.

[Darkhour]

kaiki01 wrote...

Because....Bioware is writing a character that makes logical sense. If Shepard was a sociopath he wouldn't be in the military as he would not pass the psychological exam.

A sociopath simply means you are concerned with yourself 1st and generally uncaring towards others. A sociopath can function just fine in a military. It depends on the individual goals of the sociopath. What he or she wants out of military life.

And sociopathy is not all about killing. The terms has been used to describe serial killers, but not all sociopaths are killers or crazy.

[kaiki01]

Kadzin wrote...

Dr. rotinaj wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

There's something else that doesn't seem to have been addressed here.

In the demo, the option chosen was the upper-left -- the Paragon choice. There's no reason to believe Shepard would have reacted quite the same if "you're on your own" (or whatever it was) was selected...

I think the OP is refering to what happens before the dialogue choice ( Shepard hears the kid, walks back to the vent and says "come here").

You never know, maybe he wants to eat the kid and not help him.

REAL baby back ribs!

[Fiery Phoenix]

The fundamental thing here is Shepard is a predefined character as opposed to a completely new protagonist that you build up from the ground as is case with numerous traditional RPG's. There are some things that you should either agree to overlook or simply accept as is. I, for one, have zero problems seeing my Renegade go emotional every once and a while, because at the end of the day, she's a human, not some heartless killing machine. In fact, I loved the scene with the little boy from the demo and it certainly made me excited even more if only to see how much of this ME3 has to offer.

[Images]

Perhaps they'll add that system from DA2 where if you were usually snarky, in cutscenes you were snarky? The same for angry, cheerful bashful and the rest of those short mining bastards.

[Darkhour]

Ieldra2 wrote...

You may have a point with the example from the SM you gave, but face it: having the dialogue wheel pop up at that point would've disrupted the flow of the scene too much that we'd all think it ridiculous.

It would not have disrupted the flow any more than any other dialog wheel moment does.

I can live with a minor inconsistency like that, especially since I don't think many players would want to play Shepard as quite as heartless as you. Also you seem to mistake the Renegade mindset here. A Renegade does what must be done, and be it unpleasant. It doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't care. 

I have a particular psychological profile in mind and I act in accordance with that, rather it a paragon, renegade or neutral options. I never said renegade choice = heartless. I don't care about red paraphrase or blue paraphrase. I'm talking about what this particular playthrough's Shepard would have done or how he would react. 

[Sheepie Crusher]

Darkhour wrote...

Ar we going to forced to be pansies?  This is the other side of the coin concerning paragon Sheps and the events leading up to the Arrival conclusion.

I noticed that we don't seem to get choices on how we react to things. Take Shepard and that little boy. Even if you've been playing an uncaring socipath, Shepard is clearly not. I recently play a "kill em" all renegade who did not form emotional attachments and I didn't upgrade the Normandy to up thedeath count. When Jack died Shepard "cried out" like he gave a damn about Jack as a person, which was completely out of character for MY Shepard.

Why is canon Shepard, with his emotions and compassion, being forced on the player?  Not every playthrough is going to be paragon. I do have some heartless Shepards, but if we are forced to be empathic and caring what is the point if MY Shepard is going to keep having out of character moments forced upon him. 

In the scene with the little boy Shepard can also say: "Get ou of here" so, yes , you could be an uncaring sociopath

[Darkhour]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

The fundamental thing here is Shepard is a predefined character as opposed to a completely new protagonist that you build up from the ground as is case with numerous traditional RPG's. There are some things that you should either agree to overlook or simply accept as is. I, for one, have zero problems seeing my Renegade go emotional every once and a while, because at the end of the day, she's a human, not some heartless killing machine. In fact, I loved the scene with the little boy from the demo and it certainly made me excited even more if only to see how much of this ME3 has to offer.

He isn't THAT predefined. Otherwise, ME would be like Final Fantasy where you're just along for the ride.

Sure, the little boy scene is Ok for most of my playthroughs, but not all of them. There is no reason to have to overlook this. Bioware says there is no canon and that we define his personality, but do we? I don't know. I'd like them to at least state what you can and can't do.

Bioware: Shepard can't be heartless. Don't even bother trying.

Fan: Can he at least not show emotion?

Bioware: No, Shepard will cry so don't get caught up in trying to make a really hard Shep because you'll be disappointed down the line when your Shep makes a 180 degree emotional turn.

Fan: OK. Fair enough. I'll plan acordingly.

[Darkhour]

[quote]Sheepie Crusher wrote...

[quote]Darkhour wrote...
In the scene with the little boy Shepard can also say: "Get ou of here" so, yes , you could be an uncaring sociopath

[/quote]

Could you link the clip and annotate the time?

The one I saw had no dialog options or am I going blind.

[EsterCloat]

He's telling a kid to get out of vent. It's not that big of a scene. If you want to play a completely emotionless Shepard make some stuff up like he was putting on a show for Anderson or he wanted to use the kid as a shield or he wanted to give the kid a gun so he could be an offensive shield. Or just ignore it since that kid probably won't ever be brought up again.

Modifié par EsterCloat, 08 juin 2011 - 02:18 .

[Had-to-say]

Darkhour wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

The fundamental thing here is Shepard is a predefined character as opposed to a completely new protagonist that you build up from the ground as is case with numerous traditional RPG's. There are some things that you should either agree to overlook or simply accept as is. I, for one, have zero problems seeing my Renegade go emotional every once and a while, because at the end of the day, she's a human, not some heartless killing machine. In fact, I loved the scene with the little boy from the demo and it certainly made me excited even more if only to see how much of this ME3 has to offer.

He isn't THAT predefined. Otherwise, ME would be like Final Fantasy where you're just along for the ride.

Sure, the little boy scene is Ok for most of my playthroughs, but not all of them. There is no reason to have to overlook this. Bioware says there is no canon and that we define his personality, but do we? I don't know. I'd like them to at least state what you can and can't do.

Bioware: Shepard can't be heartless. Don't even bother trying.

Fan: Can he at least not show emotion?

Bioware: No, Shepard will cry so don't get caught up in trying to make a really hard Shep because you'll be disappointed down the line when your Shep makes a 180 degree emotional turn.

Fan: OK. Fair enough. I'll plan acordingly.

Hahaha, this is my favorite post this morning. In real life humans do make 180 degree turns. Now the question is do we get a choice to make that turn. I'd like Shep to shed a tear just to see how credible the acting can get. I will say the scene with the kid in the vent was a game making moment.  It is credible for my Shepard. It makes all this Earth business much more emotional for me. The funny thing is I don't think the kid is really there.
 
Bioware is approaching the emotional fatigue of war. That is something that I want explored. Games are starting to take on serious issues. Are we looking at the damaged psyche in that vent? Or a Reaper ploy?

The Metaphysical:  
Even if it is an attempt to indoctrinate my Shep it was clever of the Reapers.

Modifié par Had-to-say, 08 juin 2011 - 03:53 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Darkhour wrote...

(...)

Could you link the clip and annotate the time?

The one I saw had no dialog options or am I going blind.

Here

It's just that the person playing the demo chose to click the Paragon option.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 08 juin 2011 - 02:31 .

[ElitePinecone]

It's a difficult balance between giving players choices to develop Shepard's character and personality, and assuming what the character would do in certain situations. S/he has to be pre-defined for certain things. A complete sociopath wouldn't be put in command of a warship, for example, or be nominated for a Spectre position. There's a difference between 'being ruthless in the pursuit of worthy goals' and 'crazy'.

It could be improved, I agree.

Lead writer Mac Walters tweeted earlier that they were aiming to improve the emotions and personality interaction with the Shepard character for ME3. I'm assuming they're responding to threads like this.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

The fundamental thing here is Shepard is a predefined character as opposed to a completely new protagonist that you build up from the ground as is case with numerous traditional RPG's. There are some things that you should either agree to overlook or simply accept as is. I, for one, have zero problems seeing my Renegade go emotional every once and a while, because at the end of the day, she's a human, not some heartless killing machine. In fact, I loved the scene with the little boy from the demo and it certainly made me excited even more if only to see how much of this ME3 has to offer.

This. Shep was a complete brick in the main story of ME2 so much so it was very difficult to tell he was human. It sucked no one goes through all that and is totally emotionless especially dying and being brought back. Serial killers have more emotion when murdering their victims then shep shows during ME2.

I was very happy that feeling and inflection was done and that shep could show me in words and actions that he has feelings sense then I'm finally being able to recognize he is a person. Emotions is not bad everybody has them throughout the day you're stressed, happy, bored, if you're around your love you could be happy, depressed, loving, ect no one is a brick in real life and shep shouldn't be either especially when you get into events where you should feel something.

The boy in the vent was good would you really see someone leap into a vent to hide and just keep going OP? Could you look a hostage in the eye and feel nothing for them as they're begging you to save them? Really if you could you should be committed. I generally try to not show pain when I'm injured that doesn't mean the pain just goes away and that doesn't mean I'm not effected both physically and mentally from it so when I do get to be alone or with my love I'll react to my self imposed suffering. Shep should show emotions with LI, if in a private SB moment with a friend, or in the case of rescuing, saving, or witnessing death when it comes to civilians.

I don't expect shep to start crying, or feeling anxious in front of his enemies and I think that's what OP kind of thinks might occur all those who ask and need shep to express emotions, feelings, and opinions want shep to do so when appropriate when situations on a scene by scene biases like they've portrayed so far. No one expects shep to be like the newest tomb raider shown when she's caught and running away from her abductors going, " Ah no! Oh I'm freaking out! This isn't good, I need help,Ah I can't breathe, Ah! " right in the middle of the battlefield or when facing off with say Harbinger or Tim face to face. If shep is feeling that way he'll keep it to himself until after the battle and he can vent how tough it was to face them to his LI, close onship friend, or chakwas.

The bastard option is the bottom right OP so if you want bastard shep to scream at that stupid kid in the vent I'm sure BW will let you do that but what BW won't let you do is walk away which I think is exactly what you want to do with your characters humanity and human condition.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 08 juin 2011 - 02:51 .

[JamieCOTC]

It is a tough tightrope to walk between freedom of choice and having a real emotive character. I believe the trick is to make the emotions optional. Another thing that has not mentioned is how that one small scene sets up the whole game. It's a great foreshadowing technique that let's the play know right from the start that Shepard can't save everyone.

I believe it was David Gaider who stated that BW makes a certain kind of PC for their games. If you want to play a sociopath, go somewhere else. And it is unfortunate that people miss the point of renegade completely. Renegade does not = evil. My renegade is actually more pro Alliance than my paragon, so while Shep is predefined to a certain degree you can game the system a bit..  It doesn't help that the paragon/renegade system is a bit screwed up.

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 08 juin 2011 - 03:00 .

[Sheepie Crusher]

Darkhour wrote...

Sheepie Crusher wrote...
In the scene with the little boy Shepard can also say: "Get ou of here" so, yes , you could be an uncaring sociopath

Could you link the clip and annotate the time?

The one I saw had no dialog options or am I going blind.

At 6:33

Modifié par Sheepie Crusher, 08 juin 2011 - 03:20 .

[bigSarg]

I think that the paragon/renegade mindset is confusing some people, I think that people see a paragon as a futuristic paladin, which is not really true, a paragon puts the lives of his team and the lives of civilains before the mission, he would rather save lives then complete the mission if it came down to that. A renengade is just the opposite, he completes the mission at all costs, sacrificing a team member or losing a team member or sacrificing a civilian are accepatable losses as long as the mission is complete, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't moarn their loss. I don't see a renegade as a cold blooded killer or a sociopath and I don't see a paragon as a dudley-do-right either. Although a paragon will be more compassonate of a person's feelings where a renegade won't, but that doesn't make a renegade a sociopath or a cold-blooded killer. But remember one thing, Shep is a specter and a specter does what needs to be done no matter what, Shep even said this himself during the LotSB DLC, but that doesn't mean hes specifically a renegade nor a paragon. I always play with equal points in both, so I have more dialogue options available.

Modifié par bigSarg, 08 juin 2011 - 03:13 .

[Kreid]

People stop this already, I get you like to roleplay your character but you *must* understand that if you want a character with more personality than a log you can't have all you want, besides, Shepard never was a first person character like the Warden, he/she is more of a third person character with his/her own principles and world views, you get to choose how he/she approaches situations but you don't control his/her whole personality.