187 réponses à ce sujet

[FluffyScarf]

You're talking to RPG fanatics. They represent the pinnacle of arrogance. Head over to RPG Codex to see why they're considered the bottom rung of society.

[marshalleck]

RPG Codex is the best site on the internet, followed closely by Fallout NMA.

Modifié par marshalleck, 09 juin 2011 - 04:04 .

[Hathur]

marshalleck wrote...

Hathur wrote...

I've been gaming for 27+ years. On PC . The last console I owned personally was a NES back in the early/mid 80's.

That would explain your hilariously inappropriate interpretation of what the context-sensitive action arrows in the gameplay field represent. You're totally out of touch with modern gaming trends! 

And I'm saying those context sensitive action arrows are utterly unecessary.. or at least should be ensured as a toggleable option. They're intrusive and service people very new to gaming... it's nothing that couldn't be explained in 10-15 secs in a tutorial section of the game... just as ME2 did.

Perhaps it's because I play only PC games and perhaps developers perceive PC gamers as somewhat less prone to ineptitude (or have the capacity to understand a tutorial)... but as someone who buys 10+ games a year, I seldom ever see these intrusive / annoying features... even on consoles games that were ported to PC (Assassins Creed 2, Bulletstorm, etc).

I'm not saying eliminate them.. I'm saying I don't want them to be mandatory. Deus Ex Human revolution had a similar fan outcry... they have a system in place where everything you can interact with in the environment is automatically outlined in a yellow glow that is very jarring and immersion breaking. They also first said it was not a feature that could be turned off. Fans got mad... shortly later, they said the full release will allow it to be turned off.

[FluffyScarf]

Seriously though, the arrows indicating where to roll looks out of place. At least they removed the fugly red veins.

[marshalleck]

Hathur wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Hathur wrote...

I've been gaming for 27+ years. On PC . The last console I owned personally was a NES back in the early/mid 80's.

That would explain your hilariously inappropriate interpretation of what the context-sensitive action arrows in the gameplay field represent. You're totally out of touch with modern gaming trends! 

And I'm saying those context sensitive action arrows are utterly unecessary.. or at least should be ensured as a toggleable option. They're intrusive and service people very new to gaming... it's nothing that couldn't be explained in 10-15 secs in a tutorial section of the game... just as ME2 did.

Except they aren't unnecessary at all--when you approach a cover object that could be vaulted over or rolled around, you need to know which action is going to take place when you hit the button. Keep in mind that this demo was the Xbox version of the game, which doesn't have as many keys as a keyboard. Part of context-sensitive actions is control consolidation, freeing up buttons on a controller to do different things. If you're playing on a higher difficulty or in a competitive environment such as multiplayer, you need to know how your character is going to react to his environment. Expecting to roll out of cover to get a better angle on your enemy and instead vaulting over an object out into the open will get you killed--that's why the graphics are there. 

It's obvious you're set in your opinion as to why they're "unnecessary" but you're completely, 100% wrong about them being permanent tutorials. They are there to indicate to a player what action--out of a variety of possibilities--is currently tied to your location and posture.

If you want to argue that Bioware needs to utilize the keyboard on the PC version of the game, instead of tying spacebar to every single interaction (talk, cover, vault, etc.) then I will whole-heartedly agree with you. But can't we wait and actually see the PC version in action before we start barking up that tree? Maybe they already heard the feedback (which was loud and clear) and implemented it. Maybe you're wasting your breath. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 09 juin 2011 - 04:14 .

[ink07]

But how else will you know you can move out of cover! Its not like you can press the stick and a button and figure it out for yourself. You need to know you can move left, right or up, lest you be stuck forever behind it and never finish the game. Stupid red veins are gone, sure, but there is still red jello filling up the screen so you know you are being hit, a health bar is too abstract a concept to figure out and not "immersive" and "cinematic".

Modifié par ink07, 09 juin 2011 - 04:15 .

[Xeranx]

marshalleck wrote...

If you want to argue that Bioware needs to utilize the keyboard on the PC version of the game, instead of tying spacebar to every single interaction (talk, cover, vault, etc.) then I will whole-heartedly agree with you. But can't we wait and actually see the PC version in action before we start barking up that tree? Maybe they already heard the feedback (which was loud and clear) and implemented it. Maybe you're wasting your breath. 

What is with this whole wait and see approach nonsense.  Yes, it's absolute nonsense to want to wait until something comes out to voice your opinion about something that may not be fixed when you have the chance of expressing a wish to have something work differently.  

People have commented on Shepard's walk in ME2 (I know I did) and I'm sure it was fixed relatively quickly so the walk is smooth just like it's expressed in cutscenes.  Of all the in-game footage we saw, if we had noticed the walking animation do you think no one would have said anything?  They purposefully did not show it because they had no intention of working on it anymore (if they wanted to work on it at all) and knew we would have held them to fix it as best we could.  

Do you think they'd offer a patch to change how various buttons activated various actions?  I mean they did in ME2, correct?

As my mother used to say, "prevention is better than cure".  If I have the option of voicing an opinion to allow something beneficial to happen and the likelihood of that something isn't favorable if I remain silent then it's my job to say something.  The wait-and-see approach serves no one especially with a medium in which developers are hesitant to change anything once they've released it.  Please, stop it.

[marshalleck]

Xeranx wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

If you want to argue that Bioware needs to utilize the keyboard on the PC version of the game, instead of tying spacebar to every single interaction (talk, cover, vault, etc.) then I will whole-heartedly agree with you. But can't we wait and actually see the PC version in action before we start barking up that tree? Maybe they already heard the feedback (which was loud and clear) and implemented it. Maybe you're wasting your breath. 

What is with this whole wait and see approach nonsense.  Yes, it's absolute nonsense to want to wait until something comes out to voice your opinion about something that may not be fixed when you have the chance of expressing a wish to have something work differently.  

People have commented on Shepard's walk in ME2 (I know I did) and I'm sure it was fixed relatively quickly so the walk is smooth just like it's expressed in cutscenes.  Of all the in-game footage we saw, if we had noticed the walking animation do you think no one would have said anything?  They purposefully did not show it because they had no intention of working on it anymore (if they wanted to work on it at all) and knew we would have held them to fix it as best we could.  

Do you think they'd offer a patch to change how various buttons activated various actions?  I mean they did in ME2, correct?

As my mother used to say, "prevention is better than cure".  If I have the option of voicing an opinion to allow something beneficial to happen and the likelihood of that something isn't favorable if I remain silent then it's my job to say something.  The wait-and-see approach serves no one especially with a medium in which developers are hesitant to change anything once they've released it.  Please, stop it.

I understand what you're saying and I usually advocate it myself, but getting all bent out of shape about dumbed-down perma-tutorials before there's even been a glimpse of the PC version is premature. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 09 juin 2011 - 05:16 .

[Shotokanguy]

I really don't feel like the arrows are necessary. I mean...can't I just look around, see where I want to go, and go there? I really don't need an arrow.

Glad to hear the ridiculous veiny things are gone, I would like to see some more creative effects for being near death AND for Adrenaline Rush.

[marshalleck]

Shotokanguy wrote...

I really don't feel like the arrows are necessary. I mean...can't I just look around, see where I want to go, and go there? I really don't need an arrow.

Not in a "push button to stick to cover" TPS game which Mass Effect turned into, and which I posted several times I hoped would not be the direction the series would go back before we had any gameplay information for ME2. But now what's done is done, and there's no realistic expectation of them changing it.

Modifié par marshalleck, 09 juin 2011 - 05:29 .

[hangmans tree]

I think my concerns with the arrows were voiced pretty well by others. I dont need to break my head with english anymore (not my native language - and no, I'm not sorry for my english) to try to advocate my point.

Arrows shouldnt be manadtory, not in their current form at least. IMO. Its distracting, immersion breaking and I dont want that. Why? I really like ME series despite all its shortcomings. And I'm gonna buy third installement. As a (potential) buyer I'm voicing my opinion.

I have to go back to The Witcher 2 reviews for a moment. The lack of PROPER tutorial is a negative thing, so scorn by many reviewers and some gamers alike. This is when I doubt the western education system. You see, when you open your journal, and find the tutorial tab - surprise - you can find ALL the info on combat and other gamplay issues. They do learn how to read in schools do they? Besides its a RPG game, I think that obligates to turn on your thinking...right?

So imagine reading all those complaints about so called bad design... What kind of "critic" writes that kind of bull**** in his review?
TW2 is just an example here what is wrong with the picture.

I dont need your CONTEXT SEDATIVE, I can find my way just fine, thank you very much.

[ink07]

hangmans tree wrote...

I have to go back to The Witcher 2 reviews for a moment. The lack of PROPER tutorial is a negative thing, so scorn by many reviewers and some gamers alike. This is when I doubt the western education system. You see, when you open your journal, and find the tutorial tab - surprise - you can find ALL the info on combat and other gamplay issues. They do learn how to read in schools do they? Besides its a RPG game, I think that obligates to turn on your thinking...right?

So imagine reading all those complaints about so called bad design... What kind of "critic" writes that kind of bull**** in his review?
TW2 is just an example here what is wrong with the picture.

I dont need your CONTEXT SEDATIVE, I can find my way just fine, thank you very much.

I hear you. People are lazy slobs and want everything spoonfed to them instantly. Jim Sterling, who is a master troll/reviewer, criticized TW2 because you didn't have a fast travel option. The game isn't even open world for god's sake, but that fatty dude is as lazy inside games as he is in real life and many people instantly agree with that.
I've seen people skip entire conversations and cutscenes because they don't care for them. It wouldn't matter that much, but many companies feel they should please those guys.

Mass Effect encourages these kinds of things by limiting the responses to top, middle and bottom and color coding the most important decisions lest people get confused between saving and kissing puppies and burning down an orphanage. DA2 suffered greatly due to this very thing. Just point your stick down and AAAAAA your way through dialogue. I mean, they have to make it as obvious as possible because God forbid the player is punished for doing dumb stuff like not paying attention to the answer he picks.

It is funny with these people because they are usually the ones who complain about lengthy tutorial sequences and call them boring and they feel like they already know how to play. Then, they complain again when they get their asses kicked because they failed to read the tutorials they think are useless. Problem is, if Bioware wants to sell 4-5 million copies they have to take into account that idiots will play their games, so they have to make them flashier, include on-rails shooter sections that are the bomb everywhere else, and of course, ensure the player doesn't get lost inside their ship and knows how to navigate a stupid corridor. It's ridiculous.

Modifié par ink07, 09 juin 2011 - 10:29 .

[JayhartRIC]

Wow, it isn't a tutorial. It's just to make sure you do what you intend to do. Without the arrows you could be pressing the A button like a madman to jump over some cover when you aren't able to. In a life-or-death situation you want to be sure the movement you do is the intended one. You may have the joystick pressed a hair to far to the left and do a combat roll instead of a SWAT turn and it's open season.

[PsychoWARD23]

Chris Priestly wrote...

I will point out that for every message I have ever been sent saying "theer are too many tutorials" or pop ups or whatever, I have a lot more asking for help as they do not understand how things work.

Sure, smart people like YOU dear reader of this may not need them, but you'd be surprised how many people do.

Can we toggle them?

[CannotCompute]

I guess a toggle would be a welcome addition for the players that find it obtrusive.

[Ieldra]

I think interface hints are sometimes necessary because the environment doesn't interact naturally with your movements. For instance, you may see a chest-high wall, but it's quite possible that you won't be able to vault over it because it's placed at the limit of the "playable" area or some other technical reason. You might see a new cover to roll over to, but when is the exactly right time to press the button? I am a RPG player and not too familiar nor too enamored with fast-paced shooters as a rule, so I usually appreciate these little interface hints.

I do agree that it should be possible to turn them off.

What I mind more are intrusive quest markers, the fact that most newer games show you exactly where to go, always, leaving no room for exploration. In ME2, these are not present within most places but that doesn't make things better because most missions are like "Follow the only possible path and kill everything on the way until you are finished with this mission", which is actually worse. Too much linearity within missions, that's a much bigger problem for me than those interface hints.

[Rheia]

I don't like extraneous indicators on my screen either. Some welcome them - and I will always support an option that allows for them to be present, but I want a toggle to turn them off. All of them.

I like my immension. Being a pc player I always took advantage of mods that improve that factor in games. NWN2 and DA:O, for example had horrendeous circles under character's feet as well as targeting indicators. How quickly do you guys think the mods that REMOVE them were created?

ME2 also has texture mods that gets rid of the ugly red veins, and modifies weapon icons powers. And they came to be fairly soon after the game release.

Constant pop ups about aiming, taking cover, launching probes? Hated them too. And there was a solution to minimize their presence via .ini edit.

My point is, if such modifications were made possible by a third party intervention for a game that isn't mod-friendly, why not have them as options in the first place?

Say what you want about DA2, but the game has an excellent system regarding the presence of visual indicators. Most things can be turned on/off via menu toggle. I hope ME3 follows in this aspect.

Modifié par Rheia, 09 juin 2011 - 11:31 .

[sevalaricgirl]

I hope they don't have any of the things mentioned in the pc version or that we can shut them off. I, too, didn't like them. I also don't like the weapon and powers wheel and hope they're not the same in pc version. I really loved the look of ME2 with the choices just being on the bottom of the screen. The demos only showed 2 dialogue choices, renegade and paragon. I sure hope we get a lot more in the actual game. They have a lot of months to work on it and get it to where we want it to be. One more comment, devs, just because we game doesn't mean we lack intelligence. I work in engineering and write novels. In my free time I like to play games. I love FEAR's tutorials, nice little white comments, select F to pick up this item. I don't need them glaring out at me.

[Undertone]

What I don't understand is why people cry against having these arrows being optional. You like it, you keep it, you don't like it. Remove it.

[Massadonious1]

JayhartRIC wrote...

Wow, it isn't a tutorial. It's just to make sure you do what you intend to do. Without the arrows you could be pressing the A button like a madman to jump over some cover when you aren't able to. In a life-or-death situation you want to be sure the movement you do is the intended one. You may have the joystick pressed a hair to far to the left and do a combat roll instead of a SWAT turn and it's open season.

Welcome to the inferior race of gamers that apparently like to know what they are doing and where they are going.

We have punch and pie on Saturdays, but on Sunday we have to polish the controllers and keyboard/mice of our betters. They can't be wicked smart vidja game players if we don't.

[Gatt9]

FluffyScarf wrote...

You're talking to RPG fanatics. They represent the pinnacle of arrogance. Head over to RPG Codex to see why they're considered the bottom rung of society.

Are we the "Pinnacle of arrogance"?  Or is it the people who insist Adventure Games(Oblivion) and Shooters(ME2) are RPGs,  even when they admit to having never played a PnP RPG,  that are the pinnacle of arrogance?

I'd venture that trying to redefine something that's existed for 30 years,  just to fit your own tastes,  when you hate the thing you're trying to redefine is the pinnacle of arrogance.

I often end up with an image of someone putting a Corvette badge on their Ford Focus,  and then insisting that it's the new Corvette,  old Corvettes aren't valid anymore,  and anyone who disagrees is (Elistist,  Arrogant,  Old,  Outdated).

[DieHigh2012]

Gatt9 wrote...

FluffyScarf wrote...

You're talking to RPG fanatics. They represent the pinnacle of arrogance. Head over to RPG Codex to see why they're considered the bottom rung of society.

Are we the "Pinnacle of arrogance"?  Or is it the people who insist Adventure Games(Oblivion) and Shooters(ME2) are RPGs,  even when they admit to having never played a PnP RPG,  that are the pinnacle of arrogance?

I'd venture that trying to redefine something that's existed for 30 years,  just to fit your own tastes,  when you hate the thing you're trying to redefine is the pinnacle of arrogance.

I often end up with an image of someone putting a Corvette badge on their Ford Focus,  and then insisting that it's the new Corvette,  old Corvettes aren't valid anymore,  and anyone who disagrees is (Elistist,  Arrogant,  Old,  Outdated).

You just awnsered your first question with a yes...

Pen and paper only existed because they couldn't make games like Oblivion and ME2 in the dark ages. If you want to be proud of playing PnP RPG, fine I don't care. But please stop pretending your outdated opinion matters at all to the modern gaming public.

Go back to DnD, let us play awesome games like Mass Effect and Oblivion if you feel so strongly about it.

[TheRealJayDee]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

Pen and paper only existed because they couldn't make games like Oblivion and ME2 in the dark ages. If you want to be proud of playing PnP RPG, fine I don't care. But please stop pretending your outdated opinion matters at all to the modern gaming public.

Go back to DnD, let us play awesome games like Mass Effect and Oblivion if you feel so strongly about it.

You have no clue what you're talking about. Now, can't we all just be friends?!

[Gravbh]

The arrows are context sensitive. If you would stop nerd raging for half a second you might see that. It will be like in gears. If you're in cover in gears and you hit the left direction and the action button you will normally just dive in that direction out of cover. If there is nearby cover the arrow means doing that same motion will move you into that cover directly rather than simply exiting cover. Considering that the distance for completely exiting cover and simply moving directly into new cover isn't very consistent, the arrow is welcome in letting you know exactly what to expect. It cuts down on the "BS that's not the motion I wanted to do" which is inevitable in cover based 3rd person games.