183 réponses à ce sujet

[RPGamer13]

I like the ammo powers, it's better than waiting for a certain point in the game for the different mod levels to become available. I could spend points in the beginning to get the ammo powers maxed out before I do anything else.

How is that not a positive?

I always hate it in games how you're in the final dungeon and all of a sudden you get a weapon more powerful than all the others and that it's the only place you get to use said weapon.

To me, the ammo powers help resolve that and now you don't have to wait to get the appropriate mode for the elemental damage to become stronger.

[tjzsf]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Wouldn't work since we no longer have an accuracy stat.

Sure it does. Makes your aim circle bigger and anything in the circle takes damage.

Seems weak.  Soldiers already have more ammo than everybody else (since they carry more weapons).  It'd have to be a hell of a long firefight to run out of ammo for your sniper rifle, assault rifle, shotgun and handgun.

Not for a specific gun. Some people like being snipers and using SRs other than the Viper. +ammo capacity to your Mantis or Widow is a pretty useful power.

Then you're encouraging the Soldier not to use their weapons, which is supposed to be their main feature.

Only for a short while. And not enough to encourage them to not use their guns most of the time. Only adds a method of play for people who like CQC as a soldier. Doesn't subtract anything for people who  like using their guns.

So a class ability that increases damage with all weapons by X%?  The trouble with that is it would be overpowering if the Soldier could then also boost his damage by loading Incendiary ammo.  (About the only way I can imagine it working would be if Soldiers were not allowed to use special ammo types, which just reverses your problem.)

No, separate abilities that increases damage with certain weapons temporarily.

Saying "it could feasibly be done better" is not very constructive if you can't come up with any workable suggestions.  I think the devs probably did experiment with all kinds of powers, and the system they came up with was the best they could do without breaking the game.

See above rebuttals. Game not broken. Workable.

So you'll accept that, but not accept that not everybody in the squad is rated for specialist ammo.  Weird.

Sticking the special ammo block is the exact same process as sticking the regular ammo block in to the gun. Again, not everyone in a real army gets training with the heavy weapons. Tech power ratings is like a sniper rating or a grenadier rating IRL. THe proper analogy would be like snipers or grenadiers being able to put magazines containing different caliber bullets into their standard-issue rifles, but average riflemen being less able to use the sniper rifle or grenade launcher effectively enough for them to have that as an ability in a game about standard riflmen.

Some things are only weird if you don't think.

[Someone With Mass]

RPGamer13 wrote...

I like the ammo powers, it's better than waiting for a certain point in the game for the different mod levels to become available. I could spend points in the beginning to get the ammo powers maxed out before I do anything else.

How is that not a positive?

I always hate it in games how you're in the final dungeon and all of a sudden you get a weapon more powerful than all the others and that it's the only place you get to use said weapon.

To me, the ammo powers help resolve that and now you don't have to wait to get the appropriate mode for the elemental damage to become stronger.

Well said.

Not to mention that in ME3, we can evolve them in different ways too.

[Gatt9]

RPGamer13 wrote...

I like the ammo powers, it's better than waiting for a certain point in the game for the different mod levels to become available. I could spend points in the beginning to get the ammo powers maxed out before I do anything else.

How is that not a positive?

I always hate it in games how you're in the final dungeon and all of a sudden you get a weapon more powerful than all the others and that it's the only place you get to use said weapon.

To me, the ammo powers help resolve that and now you don't have to wait to get the appropriate mode for the elemental damage to become stronger.

How isn't it positive?

1.  It's a bullet,  if you understand how to load one,  you should be able to load any.  There's nothing terribly complex about loading a magazine into a gun,  and there's nothing different about loading a magazine of one type of ammo into a gun versus loading a different type in.  "OMG,  Incendiary rounds!  I don't know how to fit this clip into the hole anymore!!!"

2.  It's a bullet,  it doesn't get better as you gain experience with the weapon.  It does exactly what it did the first time you shot it.  Shooting it 4000 times doesn't let you suddenly magically change all of your friend's bullets into your type of bullet either.

3.  It's a bullet,  if you don't have the appropriate bullets,  and the appropriate modifications to your gun,  you can't load them,  and you will destroy your gun trying to fire them.  You cannot put a tracer round in just anything,  nor can you put a FMJ round in just anything,  and if you don't have any hollow points,  you can't put hollow points in your gun.

It's not a positive because it requires you to completely ignore everything about bullets to accept it.  If you've ever been within 10 feet of a gun,  it's completely ridiculous in concept.  Even the Thermal Clips make more sense,  at least you can logic out a partial excuse for it.  Ammo Powers have no such logic.

[CaptainZaysh]

@TJ:

1. There is no aiming circle anymore.

2. Soldier class is about the variety of weapons. People who only like using sniper rifles should be playing as Infiltrators.

3. Swapping weapon damage buffs for CQC damage buffs obviously subtracts the weapon damage buffs.

4. Then you hit the problem of stacking this ability with specialised ammo would break the game. Only way around it is to not let Soldiers use special ammo.

Your suggestions are all game breakers. And:

5. I know how real armies work, mate, I was in one. We all cross-trained on everybody else's weapon systems so if the support gunner or marksman (or medic or signaller) got slotted someone else would be able to take over.

5.

[Il Divo]

Gatt9 wrote...

How isn't it positive?

1.  It's a bullet,  if you understand how to load one,  you should be able to load any.  There's nothing terribly complex about loading a magazine into a gun,  and there's nothing different about loading a magazine of one type of ammo into a gun versus loading a different type in.  "OMG,  Incendiary rounds!  I don't know how to fit this clip into the hole anymore!!!"

2.  It's a bullet,  it doesn't get better as you gain experience with the weapon.  It does exactly what it did the first time you shot it.  Shooting it 4000 times doesn't let you suddenly magically change all of your friend's bullets into your type of bullet either.

3.  It's a bullet,  if you don't have the appropriate bullets,  and the appropriate modifications to your gun,  you can't load them,  and you will destroy your gun trying to fire them.  You cannot put a tracer round in just anything,  nor can you put a FMJ round in just anything,  and if you don't have any hollow points,  you can't put hollow points in your gun.

It's not a positive because it requires you to completely ignore everything about bullets to accept it.  If you've ever been within 10 feet of a gun,  it's completely ridiculous in concept.  Even the Thermal Clips make more sense,  at least you can logic out a partial excuse for it.  Ammo Powers have no such logic.

This is what we call 'gameplay-lore segregation'. It's what happens when gameplay is meant to be separated from the internal logic of the series. You may as well be asking how Ashley learns Immunity, how Spectre Training gives increased health, or why Shepard is able to revive downed squad members with Unity.

Modifié par Il Divo, 11 juin 2011 - 11:36 .

[Gatt9]

Il Divo wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

How isn't it positive?

1.  It's a bullet,  if you understand how to load one,  you should be able to load any.  There's nothing terribly complex about loading a magazine into a gun,  and there's nothing different about loading a magazine of one type of ammo into a gun versus loading a different type in.  "OMG,  Incendiary rounds!  I don't know how to fit this clip into the hole anymore!!!"

2.  It's a bullet,  it doesn't get better as you gain experience with the weapon.  It does exactly what it did the first time you shot it.  Shooting it 4000 times doesn't let you suddenly magically change all of your friend's bullets into your type of bullet either.

3.  It's a bullet,  if you don't have the appropriate bullets,  and the appropriate modifications to your gun,  you can't load them,  and you will destroy your gun trying to fire them.  You cannot put a tracer round in just anything,  nor can you put a FMJ round in just anything,  and if you don't have any hollow points,  you can't put hollow points in your gun.

It's not a positive because it requires you to completely ignore everything about bullets to accept it.  If you've ever been within 10 feet of a gun,  it's completely ridiculous in concept.  Even the Thermal Clips make more sense,  at least you can logic out a partial excuse for it.  Ammo Powers have no such logic.

This is what we call 'gameplay-lore segregation'. It's what happens when gameplay is meant to be separated from the internal logic of the series. You may as well be asking how Ashley learns Immunity, how Spectre Training gives increased health, or why Shepard is able to revive downed squad members with Unity.

That works just fine when you're asking the player to accept something that doesn't exist in the real world,  and has an air of mystery about it.  Such as Unity,  or Spectre Training,  which is vauge and references something we have nothing to compare to.  Such as,  what is Medi-gel?  How is a Spectre trained by aliens?  Does it involve gene-therapy or something?

But it's an issue when you demand the Player forget everything he knows about something to accept a situation we just know through experience to be ridiculous,  such as ME's bullets,  or even Fallout 3's Nuke-guns.  It inherently changes the tone of the game,  from something the player is emotionally invested in,  to something at least vaguely comedic.

As I said in a different thread,  the stupidity of it all often has me picturing Tali with an inferno round suddenly saying "OMG how can you people expect me to fit this round object in circular hole!  You're just insane!  It can't be done!"

The key to gameplay-lore segregation is that you have to enact it upon things sufficiently vague that the Player doesn't have enough of a real world comparison to associate it with ridiculous,  doing it with something commonly known just causes the player to say "WTF?".  Because the vast majority of the people here on this board would likely be able to figure out how to load any given round into a clip,  and the clip into a gun in a few minutes,  through experience.

[Il Divo]

Gatt9 wrote...

That works just fine when you're asking the player to accept something that doesn't exist in the real world,  and has an air of mystery about it.  Such as Unity,  or Spectre Training,  which is vauge and references something we have nothing to compare to.  Such as,  what is Medi-gel?  How is a Spectre trained by aliens?  Does it involve gene-therapy or something?

It sounds more like you're simply trying to give Mass Effect a pass, for some reason. For example, I wouldn't say that unity or spectre-training have 'an air of mystery' which seems to imply that the developers had some deep insight when creating them. They're simply gameplay mechanics which have no established logic to them.

How is a Spectre trained, period? Mass Effect gave us that wonderful one-liner about Spectres 'not being made, they're born'. When was Commander Shepard trained as a Spectre? Why does it result in him having more health?

What's the logic behind any of the weapon powers? Or why is Shepard suddenly able to equip medium armor because he put points into a skill tree? How is Shepard able to carry around so many useless guns? Where's the 'air of mystery' behind any of these elements? The simple answer is that there are none because you're attempting to call into question what is merely a gameplay element. Incendiary ammo levels up because the developers decided to make it an aspect for each class. That's all there is to it.

But it's an issue when you demand the Player forget everything he knows about something to accept a situation we just know through experience to be ridiculous,  such as ME's bullets,  or even Fallout 3's Nuke-guns.  It inherently changes the tone of the game,  from something the player is emotionally invested in,  to something at least vaguely comedic.

I admit that I'm somewhat troubled by the idea that Mass Effect's combat was 'emotionally investing'.

The key to gameplay-lore segregation is that you have to enact it upon things sufficiently vague that the Player doesn't have enough of a real world comparison to associate it with ridiculous,  doing it with something commonly known just causes the player to say "WTF?".  Because the vast majority of the people here on this board would likely be able to figure out how to load any given round into a clip,  and the clip into a gun in a few minutes,  through experience.

No, the key to gameplay-lore segregation is to simply accept that inconsistencies in gameplay exist because it's a video game. In other words, what happens when an Ogre with a 2hander stabs a robe-wearing Wizard who still manages to survive without a single mark on him.

I'm also certain that the vast majority of the people on this board would not be able to survive a shotgun blast to the face (Immunity) or magically be able to do more damage with a pistol for a brief period of time (Marksman).

Modifié par Il Divo, 11 juin 2011 - 07:43 .

[Hatchetman77]

I like ammo powers.

[turian councilor Knockout]

Overheated weapons sucked, i like thermal clips better since it feels more like a real shooter and not like you have a half thrashed weapon as a spectre.

[JayhartRIC]

They apparently require some type of expertise to equip beyond simply pushing a button, just like a tech specialist doing cyro blast or releasing a drone. Just because it happens quickly in-game doesn't make it as simple as it looks, just like it isn't easy to hack an opposing synthetic.

[nitrog100]

Ammo powers aren't really all that ridiculous. I'm pretty sure that the ammo upgrades come from your Omni-Tool, which is also the basis for tech powers. The ammo that the omni-tool makes gets upgraded, which makes your ammo more powerful.

[cold52]

two things to say...

one for those who wonder why cant other shepards use this or that stop thinking it as why cant he and instead ask why doesnt he. which is a simple answer, its how shepard trained himself and what hes used to doing.

secondly I myself think soldiers powers could be modified...how? maybe somthing like this
(my descriptions probably arent that great buuuuut...)

Adreniline Rush
slows everything down around the soldier allowing for easy shots.

Concussive blast
stuns or knocks back enemys with at.

Frag Grenade
similar to cuncussive blast but can hit multiple targets, though it has a delay unlike its other counterpart.

Fortifacation (or immunity)
decreases overall damage for a brief period of time.

Overclock
temporarily pushes a gun to its max for a greater effect
(basically its me1 soldiers weapon abillities all rolled into one power).

[JayhartRIC]

cold52 wrote...

two things to say...

one for those who wonder why cant other shepards use this or that stop thinking it as why cant he and instead ask why doesnt he. which is a simple answer, its how shepard trained himself and what hes used to doing.

secondly I myself think soldiers powers could be modified...how? maybe somthing like this
(my descriptions probably arent that great buuuuut...)

Adreniline Rush
slows everything down around the soldier allowing for easy shots.

Concussive blast
stuns or knocks back enemys with at.

Frag Grenade
similar to cuncussive blast but can hit multiple targets, though it has a delay unlike its other counterpart.

Fortifacation (or immunity)
decreases overall damage for a brief period of time.

Overclock
temporarily pushes a gun to its max for a greater effect
(basically its me1 soldiers weapon abillities all rolled into one power).

I like it.  I think it would keep Adrenaline Rush from being the only power u use.  ME2 Adrenaline Rush was all those powers rolled into one basically.  This way you could choose slowdown, more damage, or more protection.

[TheShogunOfHarlem]

My one major complaint about the Ammo power system is that they got rid of Chemical, Hammerhead and explosive rounds. What gives!?!?

[azerSheppard]

Ammo powers are usefull, thats the sole reason.

[tonnactus]

In Exile wrote...

Let's say you cut ammo powers - what actual abilities do you give to a soldier? Magic bullets?

Everything is better then those stupid enchantment powers and bullettime.Special weapon firing modes like carnage,just without the bonus accuracy that isnt needed anymore,should make an comeback.

[Someone With Mass]

Tigerblood and MilkShakes wrote...
Im still pissed about ammo clips thy worst idea to happen to the franchise.overheated weapons was awesome you had to think about customizing your weapon

Guess what. We can customize out weapons in ME3 anyway.

[clerkenwell]

tonnactus wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Let's say you cut ammo powers - what actual abilities do you give to a soldier? Magic bullets?

Everything is better then those stupid enchantment powers and bullettime.Special weapon firing modes like carnage,just without the bonus accuracy that isnt needed anymore,should make an comeback.

You can't have powers like Carnage because the role it fills is too similar to Adrenaline Rush.

Iif you're going to add new powers for the Soldier to replace ammo powers, they have to follow three rules.

1. They must be active and not passive. All classes have one passive power.
2. They must not fill the same role as other Soldier powers. Otherwise one of the powers becomes useless.
3. They must not be Tech or Biotic in nature. This rules out most defense-strippers.

That leaves not very many options. You CAN'T have a weapon damage increase power (already have AR). You CAN'T have a light-damage CC power (already have Concussive). You CAN'T have a damaging area of affect power (already have Frags).

What can you have? Well, I would suggest one defensive power, like Fortification. Next, maybe something like Piercing Shot, which would do double damage to Armor, possibly Health, and might trigger a stagger animation against unprotected enemies like Inferno Ammo does.

For the third power, I'd suggest some sort of squad-buffing power, but its difficult to think of one that makes sense. I'd most like to see something that temporarily buffs squad Shields, but that would obviously be a Tech power. You could do something like a typical "Battle Shout" ability that increases squad damage, but I don't know if you could spin that in a way that makes it work in the ME universe. Any ideas?

[Admoniter]

JayhartRIC wrote...

They apparently require some type of expertise to equip beyond simply pushing a button, just like a tech specialist doing cyro blast or releasing a drone. Just because it happens quickly in-game doesn't make it as simple as it looks, just like it isn't easy to hack an opposing synthetic.

Would it really take all that much expertise be equire all you doing is putting a different metal block in its slot instead of your regular ammo block? Rectangular thing goes in rectangular hole, I don't see how that could be that complicated unless you don't understand the concept of shapes.

But really whether it is difficult to change ammo blocks for ME weapons is irrelevent; fact is all classes even the caster classes were capable of swapping out ammo blocks in ME1. This made sense, every single Shepard was an N7 operative; I imagine their training at some point dealt with getting the most out of your weapons. This especially makes sense for caster classes because weapons wise they have the most limited selection so one would think that having modifiers would be a necessity. And suddenly everyone but the combat classes has no idea how to do this; even the combat classes seem to suffer partial retardation here as well seeing as they somehow know how to put one type of ammo block in their gun but can't seem to figure out how the other ones work... lol wut? Now maybe we're missing something here but I don't imagine the process of putting in disruptor rounds would be functionally different from putting incindiary rounds or any other ammo block for that matter into your weapon.

Modifié par Admoniter, 11 juin 2011 - 11:34 .

[tonnactus]

clerkenwell wrote...

You can't have powers like Carnage because the role it fills is too similar to Adrenaline Rush.

Why not remove Adrenaline Rush? I doubt many would miss it. Its just a boring damage increasing bullettime.
Squad buffing power: Just something like rally and courage.Increases motivation for your team for a short time,reduces cooldowns and increases damage.

Modifié par tonnactus, 11 juin 2011 - 11:33 .

[azerSheppard]

tonnactus wrote...

clerkenwell wrote...

You can't have powers like Carnage because the role it fills is too similar to Adrenaline Rush.

Why not remove Adrenaline Rush? I doubt many would miss it. Its just a boring damage increasing bullettime.
Squad buffing power: Just something like rally and courage.Increases motivation for your team for a short time,reduces cooldowns and increases damage.

I believe you are a nub, Adrenline rush + mattock is THE most destructive thing in the game. You can keep you rally and motivation, im not a champion or a ****ing bard:blink:

[Bluefuse]

Flashlegend wrote...

I seriously don't know. I would think that someone in Bioware would realize putting points in a skill to make your ammo better was extremely boring progression. I'd rather have new active abilities/passive abilities and have ammo power incorporated in weapon modding then continue with just ammo power.

I agree with this.

[clerkenwell]

azerSheppard wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

clerkenwell wrote...

You can't have powers like Carnage because the role it fills is too similar to Adrenaline Rush.

Why not remove Adrenaline Rush? I doubt many would miss it. Its just a boring damage increasing bullettime.
Squad buffing power: Just something like rally and courage.Increases motivation for your team for a short time,reduces cooldowns and increases damage.

I believe you are a nub, Adrenline rush + mattock is THE most destructive thing in the game. You can keep you rally and motivation, im not a champion or a ****ing bard:blink:

Not to mention the fact that removing Adrenaline Rush and adding Carnage does absolutely nothing to fix the issue of not having any powers to replace ammo powers.