146 réponses à ce sujet

[Alamar2078]

I will stipulate that it would be nice if each class had roughly the same amount of trouble regardless of difficulty level. It's a very general statement but it fine as a good goal.

In reality sometimes classes simply won't be equally as well balanced especially on a per mission basis. Some classes will have bigger learning curves. Some powers may not translate quite as well. Some classes will own certain missions while being dogs on other ones. As long as there is some semblance of balance I think that's plenty good enough.

Edit:  I don't mind if B/W focuses it's balance efforts mostly on Normal or Veteran.  I do think that at least some though should be given to Insanity difficulty though.

Modifié par Alamar2078, 10 juin 2011 - 06:16 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Alamar2078 wrote...

I will stipulate that it would be nice if each class had roughly the same amount of trouble regardless of difficulty level. It's a very general statement but it fine as a good goal.

In reality sometimes classes simply won't be equally as well balanced especially on a per mission basis. Some classes will have bigger learning curves. Some powers may not translate quite as well. Some classes will own certain missions while being dogs on other ones. As long as there is some semblance of balance I think that's plenty good enough.

Edit:  I don't mind if B/W focuses it's balance efforts mostly on Normal or Veteran.  I do think that at least some though should be given to Insanity difficulty though.

I consider the goal to give each class an unique and distinctive playstyle far more important. Balance between classes is of secondary concern.

The 'error' BW made with ME2 are weapons imo. Powers are well balanced, even on Insanity - but it's silly to give the combat classes more and better (starting) weapons. Engineers, Adepts and Sentinels are relatively weak early-game b/c they're lacking in fire-power (compared to the combat classes), not powers. This will be fixed in ME3, there will be no such things as weapon restrictions anymore

All I'm saying here is, there is more to classes beside powers - weapons play an important part in combat too, and they are easily overlooked when we're discussing the difference between classes.

[Alamar2078]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
I consider the goal to give each class an unique and distinctive playstyle far more important. Balance between classes is of secondary concern.

The 'error' BW made with ME2 are weapons imo. Powers are well balanced, even on Insanity - but it's silly to give the combat classes more and better (starting) weapons. Engineers, Adepts and Sentinels are relatively weak early-game b/c they're lacking in fire-power (compared to the combat classes), not powers. This will be fixed in ME3, there will be no such things as weapon restrictions anymore

All I'm saying here is, there is more to classes beside powers - weapons play an important part in combat too, and they are easily overlooked when we're discussing the difference between classes.

I'm not so sure that I'd call ME2's weapon restrictions an error.  I'm personally fine with the "caster" classes having a very limited initial selection of weapons.   Then again I mostly play NG+ so I don't feel as much of the restrictions as others because I've already gotten my extra / bonus weapon type on the vast majority of my playthroughs.

I will agree that it is more important to make each class feel unique.  Balance across difficulties would be secondary to this.  However that doesn't mean that balance is unimportant ....

I think the biggest problem was B/W's deliberate decision to balance for Normal without any concerns being given to Insanity difficulty.  [yes IIRC there was a DEV post on this]  As a developer it is fine to balance for one difficulty level but IMHO you must consider the other levels to make sure players of all types have a reasonable experience.

[The Spamming Troll]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

I will stipulate that it would be nice if each class had roughly the same amount of trouble regardless of difficulty level. It's a very general statement but it fine as a good goal.

In reality sometimes classes simply won't be equally as well balanced especially on a per mission basis. Some classes will have bigger learning curves. Some powers may not translate quite as well. Some classes will own certain missions while being dogs on other ones. As long as there is some semblance of balance I think that's plenty good enough.

Edit:  I don't mind if B/W focuses it's balance efforts mostly on Normal or Veteran.  I do think that at least some though should be given to Insanity difficulty though.

I consider the goal to give each class an unique and distinctive playstyle far more important. Balance between classes is of secondary concern.

The 'error' BW made with ME2 are weapons imo. Powers are well balanced, even on Insanity - but it's silly to give the combat classes more and better (starting) weapons. Engineers, Adepts and Sentinels are relatively weak early-game b/c they're lacking in fire-power (compared to the combat classes), not powers. This will be fixed in ME3, there will be no such things as weapon restrictions anymore

All I'm saying here is, there is more to classes beside powers - weapons play an important part in combat too, and they are easily overlooked when we're discussing the difference between classes.

classes are already unique because each class is defined by one ability. hit Y, there, your characters playstyle has been revealed. class uniqueness has already been met. unless your saying classes should be unique as in an adept thats not just a throw, pull, shockwave, warp, singularity user, but one thats a singularity, warp, pull, stasis, warp ammo, barier, dominate user. then yeah options like that would make everyones adept unique.  id absolutely adore something like that.

honestly if i had the option to make an adept in ME2 that invested in singularity, warp, pull, stasis, barier, and dominate, id have ZERO complaints about combat in ME2. because to me, thatd be "playing an adept in ME2." not the crappy singularity warper bioware stuck me with. i mean why isnt that the goal? i find it hard to beleive nobody at biowares came up with the idea of allowing the players to pick their powers. also, prerequesites be damned.

i completely agree about the lacklusterness of caster classes starting with sidearms. weird, boz. i feel like im in Bazaroland.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 11 juin 2011 - 12:03 .

[tonnactus]

D.Kain wrote...

Biotics should be chargeable. In the first book a Krogan biotic pushed an APC that weighted a couple of tons, but it took the Krogan some time to gather that energy. So it would be nice to be able to smash an Atlas mech into the nearest wall for example if you could afford to stay out of cover for 6 sec or so.

All they had to include instead of making some stupid general power immunity are drawbacks.Use a biotics on a protected enemy and sufffer from a increased cooldown.Or loose your barrrier.

The actual system is one of the most dumb things i encountered in videogames. While in Dragon Age 2 enemies are immune to certain elements and powers,they are also weak to others on nightmare.

Modifié par tonnactus, 11 juin 2011 - 10:20 .

[adonfraz]

Note that I'm grasping at straws here but



At 6:50 you can see the user has Liara's throw hotkeyed

Forward to about 11:54 and it appears that Liara used throw on that shielded enemy, which just caused a stagger.

While biotics working through defenses is hopefully an option through power evolution, it seems that early on biotics will work similarly to how they did in ME2.

[CajNatalie]

adonfraz wrote...

Note that I'm grasping at straws here but



At 6:50 you can see the user has Liara's throw hotkeyed

Forward to about 11:54 and it appears that Liara used throw on that shielded enemy, which just caused a stagger.

While biotics working through defenses is hopefully an option through power evolution, it seems that early on biotics will work similarly to how they did in ME2.

The shield was cut in half by the throw, though... which is a good thing.

Throw is an amazingly spammable ability in ME2, so if it could take down the entire shield, it'd make Overload on its longer cooldown relatively useless.
Being able to cut down half a lolshield with a quick-cool biotic seems a pretty good compromise.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 21 juillet 2011 - 05:01 .

[Taesuun]

ME is a single player game, so why does the class balance matter so much? Instead of balancing the class effectiveness, the devs should be thinking how to differentiate the playstyles and come up with fun (different) ways to play different classes.

That doesn't mean that they couldn't tweak the effectiveness of biotic abilities against shields/armor, suppose it was pretty fun to throw everything up in the air in ME1. But really, how other classes do things shouldn't matter in that discussion.

[Pulletlamer]

The poblem with biotics (and tech powers) is that in ME1 they were so overpowered that your squadmates practically anihilated everything. I always went with Liara + Tali. Max out the right skills and they are devastating.

In ME2 you actually had to use them wisely, but I agree they were nerfed considerably. In higher difficulties it's difficult to kill targets like YMIR mechs and mercenaries with shields/barriers + armor if you were a biotic, since your powers were pretty useles..

What Bioware could do is introduce more abilities to take care of barriers/shields and defences, and/or add some abilities that can ignore them.

[Jamin101]

I read the first two pages and had to post. Maybe im using the canadian version of mass effect but im getting a way different experience. People saying its not gimped or we just suck and need tactics have you ever actually played as a vanguard?

My powers are pull, shockwave and charge. Against normal enemies insanely powerful. However, I play on higher difficulties. Every enemy has one of shield/barrier/armor.

So throw and shockwave cant be used until you are down to the bare health and by that point two bullets kills someone so it is a waste of time. I cant count how many times i took someone down to health it shockwave and had the enemy dead because my team shot him.By the time an enemy is at health the battle is already over and its simple cleanup. So on higher difficulties 80% of every battle you cant use your powers.

Now charge on a higher difficulty is an instant death unless you are battling weak enemies or there are just a few, i primarly used it to get to cover if i was about to die or to finish enemies in a sylish manor.

Either way in every battle i can barely use my powers. Just beat the game on normal for the first time, never gone below veteran before. I was shocked at these powers my character all of a sudden had. I was able to lift enemies, throw them, do the actual stuff my biotic did in ME1 and it was great.

My advice playing on high difficulty use any class but biotics. Soldier it was literally 10 times as easy since biotics dont have power anyways, at least soldiers can snipe and use ARs

[JayhartRIC]

I think shockwave is useful even with protections. The stagger takes them out of cover and gives you a clear shot at them. I don't understand how people say the battle is over as soon as you strip protections. The enemy can still shoot at you. I've had enemies hide behind cover long enough that their shields recharged, plus you have ammo conservation to be concerned about.

[sighineedname]

Jamin101 wrote...
By the time an enemy is at health the battle is already over and its simple cleanup. So on higher difficulties 80% of every battle you cant use your powers.

Either way in every battle i can barely use my powers. Just beat the game on normal for the first time, never gone below veteran before. I was shocked at these powers my character all of a sudden had. I was able to lift enemies, throw them, do the actual stuff my biotic did in ME1 and it was great.

These two statements are contradictory. If it's over on higher difficulty when they only have an HP bar, why isn't it on normal difficulty?

I generally play as a gun class since I enjoy it a lot more (FPS gamer), but my squaddies biotic cooldowns were always used when I play (insanity).

[TexasToast712]

 Having the Mattock made Shockwave and Pull actually useful on Insanity with my Vanguard. I would shoot the shields/armor off of everybody then have some fun.

Modifié par TexasToast712, 21 juillet 2011 - 06:16 .

[pablodurando]

Jamin101 wrote...

I read the first two pages and had to post. Maybe im using the canadian version of mass effect but im getting a way different experience. People saying its not gimped or we just suck and need tactics have you ever actually played as a vanguard?

My powers are pull, shockwave and charge. Against normal enemies insanely powerful. However, I play on higher difficulties. Every enemy has one of shield/barrier/armor.

So throw and shockwave cant be used until you are down to the bare health and by that point two bullets kills someone so it is a waste of time. I cant count how many times i took someone down to health it shockwave and had the enemy dead because my team shot him.By the time an enemy is at health the battle is already over and its simple cleanup. So on higher difficulties 80% of every battle you cant use your powers.

Now charge on a higher difficulty is an instant death unless you are battling weak enemies or there are just a few, i primarly used it to get to cover if i was about to die or to finish enemies in a sylish manor.

Either way in every battle i can barely use my powers. Just beat the game on normal for the first time, never gone below veteran before. I was shocked at these powers my character all of a sudden had. I was able to lift enemies, throw them, do the actual stuff my biotic did in ME1 and it was great.

My advice playing on high difficulty use any class but biotics. Soldier it was literally 10 times as easy since biotics dont have power anyways, at least soldiers can snipe and use ARs

No power is useless, trust me.  

For Vanguard charge is instant death for everyone around you.  You have to upgrade it to heavy charge though to max  out the possibilities.  Pair that with a reliable shotgun like the Claymore and Evisicator and Insanity is a cakewalk.  Shockwave is really useful to get that enemy out from behind cover when you can't charge in there without dying.  It's a really useful ability to wear down the enemy.  Pull us very useful because you could have your teammates strip the shields, barriers, and then use pull so that enemy is easy bait for your squaddies.

For Adept you have to literally hang on your teammate's shoulder.  But after their shields get stripped Adept is unstopable.  Shooting out of cover to take down shields once in a while isn't a bad idea.  I love barrier because it could get you out of any bad situation.  Pull and throw again are dependent on other squaddies ability to take down shields. 

Trust me though, biotics are not overwhelmed  If you learn how to use them biotics are unstopable and better than the other classes.

[lsmoke]

biotics took quite a beating in me2 and i doubt theyre going to revert back to me1 mechanics where biotics literally owned the game (though constantly invincible soldier was up there too)

shields or not, barrier or not, theyre still going to float up helplessly to the ceiling or fly across the room...in me2...not so much

i think its more of an effort on biowares part to make the game feel more squad inclusive. i know in me1 there was a point where i didnt even bother using my teammates for anything other than an occasional (and i stress occasional) extra crowd control spell.

id just rush in and kill everything (even on insanity) without even thinking about them at all.

[mdouglas86]

sighineedname wrote...

Jamin101 wrote...
By the time an enemy is at health the battle is already over and its simple cleanup. So on higher difficulties 80% of every battle you cant use your powers.

Either way in every battle i can barely use my powers. Just beat the game on normal for the first time, never gone below veteran before. I was shocked at these powers my character all of a sudden had. I was able to lift enemies, throw them, do the actual stuff my biotic did in ME1 and it was great.

These two statements are contradictory. If it's over on higher difficulty when they only have an HP bar, why isn't it on normal difficulty?

I generally play as a gun class since I enjoy it a lot more (FPS gamer), but my squaddies biotic cooldowns were always used when I play (insanity).

On normal/veteran difficulty, almost NO enemies have protection, you can effectively crowd control them from the start of the firefight, and if your squadmates pick off a few, what's the difference, you can still fling all of the others around the room.  On insanity though, everyone has protection so you have to focus on one at a time.  I think the squad AI scripting also ruins things a bit because it seems like squadmates never do much damage to enemies UNLESS they're hanging helplessly in the air after I've pulled them.  I can't tell you how many times I've had them "steal my kill" when I was planning on stylishly finishing a guy off by throwing him into oblivion/off the map.  I don't have any facts (just observation), but it seems like squadmates can smell fresh meat when I've incapacitated a guy and all of a sudden they focus fire that guy down, whereas it would be much more useful if they were scripted to prioritize protected enemies and shoot off their defenses. 

So my point is, on the lower difficulty settings you don't feel as restricted because you can effectively do what you want from the start, but on insanity, the "fun" powers feel much more like cool finishing moves to use once you've eliminated most of the threats.  I guess the main argument is that for gun classes, insanity increases the difficulty but not the fundamental style of play.  Gameplay basically consists of: pewpew, cover, pewpewpew, and the yellow/blue extra health bars may as well be colored red for a soldier, because they deal with it in the same way.

For an adept, half of your offensive capabilities are rendered useless, which really restricts the powers that you use in combat.

[mdouglas86]

lsmoke wrote...

biotics took quite a beating in me2 and i doubt theyre going to revert back to me1 mechanics where biotics literally owned the game (though constantly invincible soldier was up there too)

shields or not, barrier or not, theyre still going to float up helplessly to the ceiling or fly across the room...in me2...not so much

i think its more of an effort on biowares part to make the game feel more squad inclusive. i know in me1 there was a point where i didnt even bother using my teammates for anything other than an occasional (and i stress occasional) extra crowd control spell.

id just rush in and kill everything (even on insanity) without even thinking about them at all.

I'm glad you mentioned the ME1 soldier in there.  This is something that I always thought was strange...everyone always talked about how the ME1 biotics were so OP, but really all of the classes were OP in that game.  You didn't really have to think about squadmates that much, regardless of what class you were.  You also didn't have to think about cover or ammo in that game either.

I love ME2, and my favorite class is the vanguard (mostly because charge is just so damn addictive).  It can be super effective on insanity, as many on these boards have proven, but it's not got anything to do with their versatile or personalized play-style.  There are literally only like 3-5 different builds that can be used really effectively, and even those are just different shades of the same combat archetype. 

The build I've been using recently is a vanguard with stasis and the geth plasma shotgun, which actually allows for a somewhat more versatile playstyle.  The bread and butter is still charging in and shotgunning the hell out of everyone though, which (while fun) doesn't really utilize very much of the vanguard skill tree.  It's the same for an adept, singularity and warp are used for so much, because the rest of the powers just aren't as effective against protections.

For ME3, they need to have a way for some of the other powers to matter, whether that be putting points in to make them bypass protections, or via some other means.  I think they need to do more to encourage unique builds within each class so that there can be vanguards that play really differently from eachother but are both really effective even at high difficulty settings.  Charge is actually a really good example of a power that has different effects on enemies with or without protection.  Use heavy charge on an enemy without protection and they go flying back, so it's a little bit of CC as well as a teleport power and a shield boost.  If the enemy still has protection up, you can still utilize the main feature of the power (teleportation, time dilation, shield boost) to put yourself in a good position, but the enemy isn't completely incapacitated. 

Something similar should be done with things like throw or cryo blast, which aren't currently useful against any protection.  Throw against a protected enemy should make them stagger back/take a knee but not cause any damage to shield/armor.  Cryo blast may not freeze the enemy, but it should cause their gun to freeze up so they can't fire for like 5 seconds.  It's these kinds of things which aren't game-breaking, but also enocurage more diversity in class builds. 

Modifié par mdouglas86, 21 juillet 2011 - 08:20 .

[CajNatalie]

Sorry but I'm just picking one line out of all that...

mdouglas86 wrote...

...Cryo blast may not freeze the enemy, but it should cause their gun to freeze up so they can't fire for like 5 seconds...

...I can't describe the awesomeness of this idea.
It'd be like having Sabotage back.

Overheat useless due to thermal clips? How about freezing the gun instead with a cryo blast?!
It would be so damn awesome.

[mdouglas86]

Yeah, I mean I think it's a decent idea....and I thought it up on the fly. Literally in about two seconds I came up with a way for cryo blast to be worthwhile on the higher difficulty levels. Making it freeze weapons for a few seconds on protected enemies means that it still has a crowd control effect, but instead of making the enemy vulnerable to an insta-kill follow-up, it just means you have one less guy shooting at you for a few seconds. It makes sense too because guns don't function properly below a certain temperature, and enemies weapons don't have shields on them to protect them.

It's just one of many good ideas that posters on these forums have come up with to improve on the current power system, which makes me feel like bioware isn't doing the greatest job of thinking creatively. Hopefully that changes for ME3. Anything that adds more options to diversify your character and make more powers worthwhile is a good thing in my eyes.

Modifié par mdouglas86, 22 juillet 2011 - 08:37 .

[adonfraz]

Here's the Adept demo. Biotics travel a lot faster (especially singularity) and warp seems effective against shields, but it maybe on casual.

[mdouglas86]

adonfraz wrote...



Here's the Adept demo. Biotics travel a lot faster (especially singularity) and warp seems effective against shields, but it maybe on casual.

It's definitely on casual/normal.  And warp was somewhat effective against shields in ME2 as well, just not effective enough waste the cooldown.  It was usually a better idea to shoot their shields off.  Plus, the argument is really based on other powers besides warp/singularity needing to be  moderately effective against shielded enemies.  I'm not sure how much this shows us regarding the utility of biotics on insanity.  Since all previews are probably going to be on normal mode, we probably won't find out until the game comes out. 

On the plus side, I like the faster travel time for powers.  I also noticed the "overpower" ability, which for a limited time, apparently lets you string together multiple powers with a drastically reduced cooldown.  This should put back some of the fun in being an adept, giving you more opportunities to combo your powers or combo with your squad powers.