152 réponses à ce sujet

[Wardawg1001]

Schyzm wrote...

my opinion is very clearly not in every single thread.  so liar be you.  actually I've only claimed a few ppl are trolling, and that's because they are pretty heavy trolls that never discuss the game and constantly flame everything in their path.  I have, for instance, never called you a troll.  I would appreciate a few less lies about me though.  on the whole.

Fair enough. You did call me a fanboi though.

[Schyzm]

Wardawg1001 wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

my opinion is very clearly not in every single thread.  so liar be you.  actually I've only claimed a few ppl are trolling, and that's because they are pretty heavy trolls that never discuss the game and constantly flame everything in their path.  I have, for instance, never called you a troll.  I would appreciate a few less lies about me though.  on the whole.

Fair enough. You did call me a fanboi though.

k fair enough, I apologize for calling you a fanboi(good you used correct spelling:)

[Wardawg1001]

Schyzm wrote...

like I've said numerous times, I'm not chasing some mythical pure equality.  the imbalance is just so grotesque right now that it renders the entire combat section of the game unenjoyable.   I also never claimed I wanted classes equal in every way, who's putting words in whom's mouth now?

The imbalance is grotesque for who? It renders the combat unenjoyable for who? The answer of course, is you. I've given you options to avoid those situations, and its been made clear by my own examples of gameplay and examples in other threads, that its very much possible to play through and enjoy the game without using a mage as your primary damage dealer. If its too much to deal with for you to avoid the temptation of using force field on your tank, then I can't really respond to that. However, the "grotesque imbalance" that is marring your playing experience is the only thing thats allowing thousands of other players to even hope to make it through on normal difficulty. Again, all I'm saying is just stop treating these things that are making your experience with the game not enjoyable as if they are cold hard facts that everybody is dealing with. You are in a minority, you dislike some of the mechanics, but its because of how you view and play the game, not because of a flaw in the design or testing of the game. Player made content will be in abundance in a few weeks that will address most of your concerns.

I did exaggerate the comments about class equality, but only to make a point. That point isn't about whether or not the game is balanced, but about the idea behind balance, why it is of paramount importance in a multiplayer game, and why it is important but should not outweigh some other concerns in the context of a single player game.

[Pocketgb]

Joe Ronimo wrote...

Raise your hand if the lack of class balance in BG2 ruined that game for you.

EDIT: Whoooa Joe, sorry that's a pain to read. I forgot that these forums don't like you copying portions from a different in-progress post : (

I was a bit too young to comprehend it at the time, but I can definitely comment on Oblivion. Yes, I know, different games, different etc., but imbalance still played a factor here.

In
Oblivion, if you really wanted to succeed in 100% difficulty, then you
had to level up Illusion ASAP. Nearly all of it's effects scaled
wonderfully no matter how much you increased it the difficulty slider.
Frenzy then Inivisibility won so many fights for me, as did using
Command: scaled enemies did the same damage they did to you to everyone
else. I could go on about Illusion in that game, but the point's gotten
across.

The point is that if I wanted
to go the game's way of a "challenge", I had to go it's way of what's
also considered viable. My favorite RPG archtype - fully armored
fighter - just scaled poorly at such a setting, and that was pretty
disappointing. Am I able to enjoy and love the game on Normal? Of course, but I wasn't able to challenge myself in the same sense.

Fortunately Dragon Age is nowhere near as imbalanced as that, and even if it was that's still not the point of it: DA
is a fantastic game with a gorgeous and delicious setting with great
characters, acting, and writing. Balance isn't going to be my chief
concern here, it may always be nice to have, but this game delivers
completely in EVERY OTHER WAY. Bioware makes me so happy to be able to say that without hesitation.

Wardawg1001 wrote...

It matters in multiplayer games because people invest a lot more money, a lot more time, and imbalance issues can cause dissatisfaction in other players, which is of course not good in and of itself, but also will cost the developer money.

If you find a good guild full of true friends, they're not going to care how weak your class is. They will favor your companionship above all else. If they don't invite you because you're *not* "insert-FOTM-class-here" then they weren't worth your time, anyways.

But of course  you do have a point. It's not fun leveling a Priest in WoW and seeing a Death Knight aoe-ing while he's AFK - gaining levels at like >9000(!!!!) times the speed of your leveling.

Wardawg1001 wrote...

I'm not trying to claim that mages are not more powerful than other classes in this game. What I am challenging is the idea that the game should be balanced to the effect that all classes are equal. You guys keep talking about balance, overpowered-ness, imba, making the trees equally powerful, etc. I don't disagree that some changes could be made, but claiming that the combat is broken, the game was untested, etc etc is just ridiculous. You need to understand that this game was not about making 3 classes that were all equal in every way. You have this idea about the game and about classes and balance that makes you think that they should all be capable of doing DPS or whatever it is you want and mages shouldnt be able to do things warriors and rogues cant. Thats great, I respect that view, and believe me when a mod comes out that makes that happen, I'll be all over it. However, that does not mean I don't enjoy the game as it is now. Millions are enjoying the game as it is now. The game is not bad, the combat is not broken, mages are not ruining the game. Thats all there is to it. You have a different view of how the game should have been made, but that doesn't entitle you to claim that the combat is meaningless, broken, or untested.

Agreed completely. Like I said above, I do care about class fairness and it would be awesome to see. But DA is nowhere near a state of me throwing my keyboard across the room, it's the exact opposite: EVERYTHING about this game is perfect.

...Except for me not being able to kiss Leliana in public, of course!!! Why do I have to *do* her every time I want a smoochies?

I suppose the cowls are a bit silly too, but they make me laugh, so success?

Modifié par Pocketgb, 20 novembre 2009 - 08:28 .

[Schyzm]

Wardawg1001 wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

like I've said numerous times, I'm not chasing some mythical pure equality.  the imbalance is just so grotesque right now that it renders the entire combat section of the game unenjoyable.   I also never claimed I wanted classes equal in every way, who's putting words in whom's mouth now?

The imbalance is grotesque for who? It renders the combat unenjoyable for who? The answer of course, is you. I've given you options to avoid those situations, and its been made clear by my own examples of gameplay and examples in other threads, that its very much possible to play through and enjoy the game without using a mage as your primary damage dealer. If its too much to deal with for you to avoid the temptation of using force field on your tank, then I can't really respond to that. However, the "grotesque imbalance" that is marring your playing experience is the only thing thats allowing thousands of other players to even hope to make it through on normal difficulty. Again, all I'm saying is just stop treating these things that are making your experience with the game not enjoyable as if they are cold hard facts that everybody is dealing with. You are in a minority, you dislike some of the mechanics, but its because of how you view and play the game, not because of a flaw in the design or testing of the game. Player made content will be in abundance in a few weeks that will address most of your concerns.

I did exaggerate the comments about class equality, but only to make a point. That point isn't about whether or not the game is balanced, but about the idea behind balance, why it is of paramount importance in a multiplayer game, and why it is important but should not outweigh some other concerns in the context of a single player game.

like I've told others, I do not enjoy being an intentional ****** in order to attempt to sidestep the broken mechanics.  and of course they're "my" opinions and "my" playing experience, I wrote the post didn't I?  did you think I was channeling tedd williams?  keep in mind I didn't immediately get disappointed by mages, I got a decent way into the game before I realized mages were the destroyer of worlds.  still good story and all that.

[Ezekiel Stone]

F-C wrote...

schyzm and kahryl are a couple of the resident trolls when it comes to mages. its just best to ignore them really. if you ignore them they usually go away.

As opposed to you who continues spouting the same stuff over and over again that "you don't have to use mages" when there is NO way around having to have at least one in the party to be viable in the game? Or would you prefer all of us to be chugging down health potions like it's the Throne of Destruction?

[Joe Ronimo]

Schyzm wrote...

bg2's class balance was actual far superior to dragon age's(afterall it was largely dnd).  it had its exploits but they were hidden way at the end in non-obvious builds that often involved a lot of pre-planning.  on the other hand, as many have attested to here dragon age becomes a joke if you stumble across a few gamebreaking spells by complete accident.  I believe you can have forcefield at lvl 2 for instance.  hardly an endgame attribute.

As just one example, summoning and other spell wands that you could sell and buy back fully recharged made BG2 a cakewalk. Not hard to figure out. Where was all the hue and cry about that?

Fighter/Mage made the game a lot easier. While some other builds were extremely weak. BG2 had poor balance and was still a great experience.

[F-C]

Ezekiel Stone wrote...

As opposed to you who continues spouting the same stuff over and over again that "you don't have to use mages" when there is NO way around having to have at least one in the party to be viable in the game? Or would you prefer all of us to be chugging down health potions like it's the Throne of Destruction?

considering people have solo the game on nightmare with a rogue i would say you are just bad.

also i dont see how having at least 1 mage in your group is a bad thing. its a party based RPG and having a healer is pretty much always required. in dao a healer is a mage, so thats pretty standard.

but ill just say : you are bad.

[themaxzero]

Once you get the Dex hotfix Rogues are realy quite good. Against Undead in particular (wither their high Cold/nature resists) Mages can pretty average. I have found both DW and archery Rogues very effective.

For me the class that needs the most help is DPS Warriors (in particular 2 handers).

Modifié par themaxzero, 20 novembre 2009 - 09:16 .

[dienekes00]

Well I suppose I should rolecall in here and also claim I feel mages are overpowered.



Don't get me wrong, I love the game. And I'm not even against some of the reasons why mages are so useful. Really, it wouldn't make sense for any other class to have healing. There's a reason why mages should be in every party.



But, from a game mechanic standpoint shouldn't the same be said for each class?



The problem I find is that a well speced mage for battlefield control is better at battlefield control than a warrior or rogue could ever hope to be. Well that makes sense given their spells and area of affect and so forth. However, a well speced mage is better at dps then a well specced rogue or warrior. Seems reasonable to me, they can blow stuff up and so forth. However, a well specced mage is better at buffs and debuffs than a well specced rogue or warrior. Ok, well that stuff does seem very magicy, weakening and strengthening opponents. So I guess that's fair game. However a well specced mage can out dps a well specced rogue or warrior. Makes sense, they can shoot fireballs and whatnot. However, a well specced mage can even out tank a warrior or a rogue. Well even that makes sense, since they can buff themselves up and cast their spells and so forth.



But then we ask, from a mechanical standpoint. Why do the warriors and rogues even exist? Part of this I think comes from lack of options. Mages have 68 spells and abilities that allow the player to craft them to become masters of whatever field they wish, and they can pick and choose what they have among all these spells whenever they wish. Warriors have 56, not too much less. But when you realize that each tree is mutually exclusive they get bumped down to 20 maybe 32 if you decide to make them be 2WF and 2HF or any combination using the 2 sets of weapons they have available. Rogues have 40, and don't suffer the same problem as Warriors since their only viable combat options can be used together fairly easily. However, stealth and deft hands don't contribute that well to combat, which brings their usefulness down to about 36 (counting those 2 trees as half instead of whole).



This lack of options may be one of the important keys to getting a better balance as it would increase the versatility and power of the 2 lower classes if they had a similar amount of talents rather than being completely swamped by the costumizability of the mages

[menasure]

who here really uses things like bombs and salves? that's what i like to know. it's no use complaining about imbalances when you are not prepared to give your characters the best possible options available... maybe you just don't like them, that's all.
as for mages being too powerful ... tell that to my in game mage character. sure she'll wipe the floor with whole rooms whenever i get my tactic straight but she's often the first to die whenever a single melee character gets close enough too or when a ranged opponent can't be eliminated fast enough.
with such a high number of options in game it comes down to which ones you choose. i know my 2H warrior does comparable damage on single targets and he's very capable of beating my mage one on one because he has the skills and armor to take whatever damage my mage can deal but i never build my mage for this one on one gamestyle ... that's what my warriors are for.
it's a game with a party and they all have different functions, so why all the talk about imbalances and over/underpowered?

Modifié par menasure, 20 novembre 2009 - 09:44 .

[Ezekiel Stone]

F-C wrote...

Ezekiel Stone wrote...

As opposed to you who continues spouting the same stuff over and over again that "you don't have to use mages" when there is NO way around having to have at least one in the party to be viable in the game? Or would you prefer all of us to be chugging down health potions like it's the Throne of Destruction?

considering people have solo the game on nightmare with a rogue i would say you are just bad.

also i dont see how having at least 1 mage in your group is a bad thing. its a party based RPG and having a healer is pretty much always required. in dao a healer is a mage, so thats pretty standard.

but ill just say : you are bad.

I am assuming you are referring this guy. Surely you don't support using a glitch to get ahead. Not to mention going through enemies by essentially breaking the game on the account of horrible AI. Is that your suggestion to everyone here with a valid claim about mages being overpowered in this game? That "since you can stealth as a rogue and lay traps at the feet of multiple enemies in nightmare mode and spam bombs"  or "just use tricks like Leliana not being able to die" that this game doesn't have problems in regards to mages? But who cares right? I suppose that's irrelevant to me being "horrible". Funny coming from a guy whose entire tune has been that since this is a "solo" game there is no problem with balancing since players play the way they want to, but suddenly my playstyle is incorrect because I don't find doing what I regard as "gamebreaking" to be fun. The only thing horrible here is your attitude.

Modifié par Ezekiel Stone, 20 novembre 2009 - 11:25 .

[Angeljoe]

I created the original post and thank you folks for your shared oppinions, it is endid clear that in some issues we simply do not agree, some want a more "mmo" balanced style while others like me prefer the game as it is.



However I am pretty sure that if all mage spells got their damage cut in half, their time reduced in half and their cooldowns doubled I would still be able to exploit gamemechanics in a dozen of various ways ... and dont forget that the AI mages would be just as gimped as you are.



It would still be easy to just send bear pet (provided you have one) in to attack the furthest enemy in a enemy room, leave party behind except mages and when all enemies are on bear just nuke the crap out of them and throw grease, paralysis explosion, walking nightmare or whatever to stop anyone from reaching you. Dumb AI ... human winner. As for bosses, there are other cheesy tactics to exploit wihout the mage, kiting, learning to use two different healing potions in tactics and a couple more I use.



Perhaps if enemies had healing potions, things would look very different.

[Schyzm]

menasure wrote...

who here really uses things like bombs and salves? that's what i like to know. it's no use complaining about imbalances when you are not prepared to give your characters the best possible options available... maybe you just don't like them, that's all.
as for mages being too powerful ... tell that to my in game mage character. sure she'll wipe the floor with whole rooms whenever i get my tactic straight but she's often the first to die whenever a single melee character gets close enough too or when a ranged opponent can't be eliminated fast enough.
with such a high number of options in game it comes down to which ones you choose. i know my 2H warrior does comparable damage on single targets and he's very capable of beating my mage one on one because he has the skills and armor to take whatever damage my mage can deal but i never build my mage for this one on one gamestyle ... that's what my warriors are for.
it's a game with a party and they all have different functions, so why all the talk about imbalances and over/underpowered?

because imbalances degrade the combat experience.  your mage really shouldn't be dying to single melee characters.

[Leather_Rebel90]

Are you kidding? Mages are terribly overpowered.

[Schyzm]

Angeljoe wrote...

I created the original post and thank you folks for your shared oppinions, it is endid clear that in some issues we simply do not agree, some want a more "mmo" balanced style while others like me prefer the game as it is.

However I am pretty sure that if all mage spells got their damage cut in half, their time reduced in half and their cooldowns doubled I would still be able to exploit gamemechanics in a dozen of various ways ... and dont forget that the AI mages would be just as gimped as you are.

It would still be easy to just send bear pet (provided you have one) in to attack the furthest enemy in a enemy room, leave party behind except mages and when all enemies are on bear just nuke the crap out of them and throw grease, paralysis explosion, walking nightmare or whatever to stop anyone from reaching you. Dumb AI ... human winner. As for bosses, there are other cheesy tactics to exploit wihout the mage, kiting, learning to use two different healing potions in tactics and a couple more I use.

Perhaps if enemies had healing potions, things would look very different.

actually some just want more balance, with nothing in regard to MMO's.

[Spura]

Mages are a required class to play this game pretty much. For the CC purposes mostly.

Just because mages are needed while other classes are much more optional (though I wouldn't want to play with 4 mage party) doesn't mean they are overpowered. By that criteria healers in every MMORPG are overpowered just for the fact that they are a requirement while most classes aren't.



Whoever says that mages can DPS, CC, heal etc...is making a false argument. They can do either of these things...not all of them at once. Not just because of talent point limitations, but also because of mana limitation. My Wynne can only heal. Sure she has other spells, but if I set her tactics to heal she's all out of mana all the time. Can't heal and DPS without some serious mana potion chugging.

[Gen-An]

by the maker... this topìc again! I can't believe it!

[Zenthar Aseth]

Spura wrote...
Whoever says that mages can DPS, CC, heal etc...is making a false argument. They can do either of these things...not all of them at once. Not just because of talent point limitations, but also because of mana limitation. My Wynne can only heal. Sure she has other spells, but if I set her tactics to heal she's all out of mana all the time. Can't heal and DPS without some serious mana potion chugging.

Arcane Warrior/BM can do all of those.

[vorianxavier]

I notice F-C called Georg, one of the most awesome people at Bioware, a troll. I'm sure that went over well.

[addiction21]

vorianxavier wrote...

I notice F-C called Georg, one of the most awesome people at Bioware, a troll. I'm sure that went over well.

The secret is that you send them some waffles and all is forgiven.

As for the topic. I do not care.  Really I don't. Why you ask me? Because I can take a little initiave and artifically increase the difficulty level by not using the cheap tactics everyones in a uproar over. maybe there will be changes maybe not but it wont stop me from enjoying the game. 
Also (being lover of playing mages in PnP days, mmos, and crpgs) I saw the description of the arcane warrior and knew right then the problems it would cause. Mage = Glass cannon  Mage in massive armor = mini deathstar

[Zenthar Aseth]

Yup. I don't see a problem either. Just don't abuse anything... Arcane Warrior can be made reasonable as well if you want.. just don't take the 3rd spell

[Skellimancer]

I am at the Mage Tower using Mana Clash spell which is an AOE that 1 shots any opponent with mana on Nightmare difficulty.



Yes, mages are not overpowered. LOL.

[spooler29]

Schyzm wrote...

Wardawg1001 wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

Wardawg1001 wrote...

No you idiot, pay attention I'll say this again. Don't use the "overpowered" mechanics of the classes IF THEY BOTHER YOU. Most people couldn't care less, and many need them just to make them through the game on easy/normal. But if it irritates you that cone of cold is practically the most powerful spell in the game, then dont train it and dont use it. SIMPLE. Or build your mage to support your warriors/rogues (heals, buffs, single target disables, etc).

not everyone enjoys intentionally playing like a ****** in the mere hope that you won't accidentally break the combat mechanics.

And not everyone is so incapable of self control that they can't stop using a spell combo when they realize it makes the game boring for them. How are you not getting this? I'm not asking you to do anything except STOP USING (insert overpowered spell/combo here) IF YOU DONT LIKE IT. You dont have to run around not experimenting with the spells, but if you have come to the point where you are so annoyed by how powerful a spell THAT YOU ARE USING is that it has destroyed your gaming experience, then you really have problems and they have nothing to do with DAO.

how are you not getting this?  what's the point of treating the game in an intelligent and clever way if you have to constantly stop using things.  it's not like the game lets you respec(not that that would make it alright but it certainly doesn't help).  I guess its offensive to you that some people want an actual functioning balanced combat system and not just a minefield of absurdity.  

I guess fanboi extremism knows no bounds, "you want rich deep combat system! OMG YOU ARE HORRIBLE PERSON I WILL USE CAPS AND EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY THAT WOULD BE A TERRIBLE IDEA!"

What YOU seem not to understand is you can make it whatever kind of combat system you want. Or you can get on forums and cry like a child about it. Dont like something ? theres a toolset for that -.-

EDIT** Further more please tell me how you would make being a mage and having the power to manipulate every force in the world. "normalised" (not overpowered). Without making it seem linear and boring ?

Modifié par spooler29, 21 novembre 2009 - 04:15 .

[addiction21]

Skellimancer wrote...

I am at the Mage Tower using Mana Clash spell which is an AOE that 1 shots any opponent with mana on Nightmare difficulty.

Yes, mages are not overpowered. LOL.

Hey did you ever get a chance to do that thing I suggested doing? If so post pics and a police report please

I really can not find anything to argue about your statement other then "oh god a spell ment to rape mages actualy works? boooo hiss boooo"
Also the mages being powerfull thing... ya I see it. Hell I do not even need all the nifty little comobs others have mentioned. Just give me fireball and that tends to trivilize most every combat that involves more the one enemy