152 réponses à ce sujet

[Skellimancer]

menasure wrote...


nope i have only read about that one on the forum

Try it out sometime.

Puts all templars to shame.

[DariusKalera]

Inherently, what kept mages in check was that they could not cast an infinite number of spells. They could only cast what they memorized and once those were gone, their combat effectiveness was pretty much done for. This meant that they would have huge damage spikes while warriors and rogues would have more constant damage. Since, in this game, a party can carry hundreds, if not thousands, of lyrium potions, this check has been removed and mages can cast pretty much as long as they want to. While the actual mechanics governing mages are not broken, other mechanics were not well thought out that tie into them. Go back to the old school mechanic of only being allowed so much weight per toon and any problems surrounding mages and their power would be rectified.

[F-C]

DariusKalera wrote...

Inherently, what kept mages in check was that they could not cast an infinite number of spells. They could only cast what they memorized and once those were gone, their combat effectiveness was pretty much done for. This meant that they would have huge damage spikes while warriors and rogues would have more constant damage. Since, in this game, a party can carry hundreds, if not thousands, of lyrium potions, this check has been removed and mages can cast pretty much as long as they want to. While the actual mechanics governing mages are not broken, other mechanics were not well thought out that tie into them. Go back to the old school mechanic of only being allowed so much weight per toon and any problems surrounding mages and their power would be rectified.

well those same mechanics effectively made mages of little use beyond a buff bot too.

in nwn2 for example, the only reason i kept a mage in my party at all was to keep up spells like persistent haste on my uber melee character while he basically solo everything on his own.

as the mage in nwn2 leveled up sure he got more spells to memorize, but only the highest level spells were worth anything compared to a well made melee damage output, and once they were gone he was useless.

on the flipside i could take a mage and make him into a buffbot, a cleric as a healbot, and run around and basically solo everything with my melee guy alone. he never ran out of resources, his damage never went down, and all he ever needed was the occasional heal and some buffs to make him god-mode.

so in comparison i dont see the DAO system as broken at all, at least damage mages are actually worth playing.

Modifié par F-C, 22 novembre 2009 - 09:44 .

[Wardawg1001]

None of that was an issue in the BG games unless you held yourself to self-created restrictions. Mages in the BG games did have a limited number of spells they could memorize, but they also had scrolls that allowed them to cast as much as they want (and scrolls could be created from any memorized spell, in BG2 and maybe in BG1 I dont recall), and Wands that had many powerful spells and these could be recharged endlessly. After every combat you could sleep and restore all of your memorized spells and HP. Weigh restrictions dont stop anything either. Mages had little need to carry anything other than their robes and a staff/sling which dont weigh anything, and the rest they are free to use for scrolls/wands/potions, which can all be put into stacks of 5 (and most of the popular player made mods allowed stacking of items far beyond that).



I cant speak for NWN or NWN2.

[JaegerBane]

DariusKalera wrote...

Inherently, what kept mages in check was that they could not cast an infinite number of spells. They could only cast what they memorized and once those were gone, their combat effectiveness was pretty much done for. This meant that they would have huge damage spikes while warriors and rogues would have more constant damage. Since, in this game, a party can carry hundreds, if not thousands, of lyrium potions, this check has been removed and mages can cast pretty much as long as they want to. While the actual mechanics governing mages are not broken, other mechanics were not well thought out that tie into them. Go back to the old school mechanic of only being allowed so much weight per toon and any problems surrounding mages and their power would be rectified.

It didn't 'keep them in check'. It basically neutered them. That was the whole reason why Obsidian allowed resting anywhere and everywhere in NWN2, so that mages weren't stuck casting 3 Magic Missiles and then spending the rest of combat missing with their crossbow.

To be honest, the whole mechanic in D&D of certain number of spells per day never truely worked for anyone who actually played a mage. It was fine and dandy for anyone who wanted to play a Cleric or a Fighter or whatever, where the wizard was either support or enemy, but trying to actually play this was just an arse. Mana systems are, imo, a much better idea.

[kroosaydur]

i dont really care that much that mages are more powerful than every other class since it is a single player game and theres no pvp or anything. what i do have a problem with is how my class of choice cant really do anything as good as a mage, and how im at more of an inconvienence with this games difficulty when i dont play a mage.

theres plently of single player games were 1 class or character or w/e is more powerful but its no big deal because the game is still played pretty much the same. but in this game pretty much everything is determined by mages. no mage no heals, no mage no CC, no mage no aoe. it just changes too much.

[DariusKalera]

F-C wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...

Inherently, what kept mages in check was that they could not cast an infinite number of spells. They could only cast what they memorized and once those were gone, their combat effectiveness was pretty much done for. This meant that they would have huge damage spikes while warriors and rogues would have more constant damage. Since, in this game, a party can carry hundreds, if not thousands, of lyrium potions, this check has been removed and mages can cast pretty much as long as they want to. While the actual mechanics governing mages are not broken, other mechanics were not well thought out that tie into them. Go back to the old school mechanic of only being allowed so much weight per toon and any problems surrounding mages and their power would be rectified.

well those same mechanics effectively made mages of little use beyond a buff bot too.

in nwn2 for example, the only reason i kept a mage in my party at all was to keep up spells like persistent haste on my uber melee character while he basically solo everything on his own.

as the mage in nwn2 leveled up sure he got more spells to memorize, but only the highest level spells were worth anything compared to a well made melee damage output, and once they were gone he was useless.

on the flipside i could take a mage and make him into a buffbot, a cleric as a healbot, and run around and basically solo everything with my melee guy alone. he never ran out of resources, his damage never went down, and all he ever needed was the occasional heal and some buffs to make him god-mode.

so in comparison i dont see the DAO system as broken at all, at least damage mages are actually worth playing.

So they are worth playing because they have, in effect, an infinite resource system allowing them to cast high level spells as often as the cooldown allows?  What used to make mages worth playing was the challenge.  As othters have stated, mages in DOA are easy mode (even on nightmare).

Like i said though, I dont think the mage mechanics are broken per se, just other mechanics in relation to the mages werent thought out entirely.   

[F-C]

DariusKalera wrote...

What used to make mages worth playing was the challenge. 

i just find this comment very amusing as most the complaints about mages are they think the game is more difficult using other classes.


heck in nwn2 i remember one character i made, was a cleric/stormlord/beserker with time/healing cleric specializations... after about halfway through the game i didnt even need a group anymore, he was a one man army. had his own buffs including haste, his own heals, and melee damage output that would rip anything to shreds.


anyways in DAO a melee class can run out of stamina, turn on persistents, and still be at full dps forever and ever.

mages staff attacks dont even compare at all, so without the mana potions they wouldnt be able to compete.


in order to change the game to your personal needs they would need to completly remodel mages to where their staff damage was on the same level as a melee auto attack damage with persistens on and so on.

they arnt going to do any major class rebalancing at this point, they have already said that, so its a pretty futile arguement.


break open your toolkit and change it to your personal needs, you will be happier than complaining on the forums.

Modifié par F-C, 22 novembre 2009 - 10:31 .

[Skemte]

Just where does it say that mages are ment to be powerful due to the lore? And don't say "because the chantry and templars".. No they watch over them because they are like psychics in the Warhammer 40k universe.. When unlicensed you are most likely going to be possessed by a demon and become a abomination a vastly powerful demon.. Or you dabble in blood magic and summon demons.. Furthermore you can clear the mage tower with 3 non mages and wynne.. Something the majority of the circle of mages fell too.. Yeah that makes sense.  That being said I really couldn't care less any more because tehre is no point.

Modifié par Skemte, 22 novembre 2009 - 10:36 .

[MANoob]

F-C wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...

What used to make mages worth playing was the challenge. 

i just find this comment very amusing as most the complaints about mages are they think the game is more difficult using other classes.


heck in nwn2 i remember one character i made, was a cleric/stormlord/beserker with time/healing cleric specializations... after about halfway through the game i didnt even need a group anymore, he was a one man army. had his own buffs including haste, his own heals, and melee damage output that would rip anything to shreds.


anyways in DAO a melee class can run out of stamina, turn on persistents, and still be at full dps forever and ever.

mages staff attacks dont even compare at all, so without the mana potions they wouldnt be able to compete.


in order to change the game to your personal needs they would need to completly remodel mages to where their staff damage was on the same level as a melee auto attack damage with persistens on and so on.

they arnt going to do any major class rebalancing at this point, they have already said that, so its a pretty futile arguement.


break open your toolkit and change it to your personal needs, you will be happier than complaining on the forums.

I had a mage that was dealing about 150 damage per hit with his staff (the target was under hexes), so this argument is not really valid. Btw mages have unlimited mana even without potions, just get +mana regen gear and forcefield yourself (using this on my solo nightmage mage run sometimes which is ridiculously easy so far). And Ive heard that with wardens keep dlc abilities its even more ridiculous.

Btw, if you think that mages were UP in nwn then you're just totally wrong. Go and ask any decent nwn munchkin about the best class in the game. You will get one of 2 answers:a ) wizard(sorc) cleric(fs). Im not even mentioning pnp D&D because mages can rape reality there.

[FlatCat]

Right Dnd wizards  were utterly ridiculous in pnp because of mass power bloat as designers spammed out spells and magic classes willy nilly.  They could plane shift to a fast time plane and rest during combat.  But even in that terrible design it was more balanced than DA because physical classes despite being way less powerful were still strong vs. standard monsters in their own right and aren't utterly helpless.  Batman is a lot weaker than Superman but still a superhero in his own right.  DA physical classes are closer to Fanboy from Freakazoid.



Except even Fanboy can get out combat situations by being annoying. LOL

[JaegerBane]

MANoob wrote...
I had a mage that was dealing about 150 damage per hit with his staff (the target was under hexes), so this argument is not really valid. Btw mages have unlimited mana even without potions, just get +mana regen gear and forcefield yourself (using this on my solo nightmage mage run sometimes which is ridiculously easy so far). And Ive heard that with wardens keep dlc abilities its even more ridiculous.

Well this makes lots of sense. Mages are overpowered because you can put powerful gear on them. I like that logic.

Btw, if you think that mages were UP in nwn then you're just totally wrong. Go and ask any decent nwn munchkin about the best class in the game. You will get one of 2 answers:a ) wizard(sorc) cleric(fs). Im not even mentioning pnp D&D because mages can rape reality there.

Actually, no, you'd get an answer of Cleric or one of those daft Bard/Barbarian/Red Dragon Disciple/Frenzied Berzerker builds. No one in the right mind would try to claim a pure Sorcerer is in the top two most powerful classes. Don't talk such rot. If you combine a Sorc with Paladin and make a gish out of them, then okay, that's a bit better, but that's little more than creating a mage that can fight like a paladin.

[JaegerBane]

F-C wrote...
break open your toolkit and change it to your personal needs, you will be happier than complaining on the forums.

To be honest, most of the complaints on here seem to centre on the fact that they don't like the concept of magic itself, rather than mages. 'Bwawawah, mages can do all this cool stuff and my warrior just swings a sword' etc etc.

Frankly the whole argument is intellectually bankrupt. If they think Mages are so overpowered then why don't they just play a mage? Part of the attraction of playing a mage is that you're effectively playing a medieval superhero.

[MANoob]

JaegerBane wrote...

Well this makes lots of sense. Mages are overpowered because you can put powerful gear on them. I like that logic.

Thats not about gear. Of course you rely on some gear, but abilities make the difference. It would be kinda stupid if you say that a warrior sucks because he deals crap damage with fists.

Actually, no, you'd get an answer of Cleric or one of those daft Bard/Barbarian/Red Dragon Disciple/Frenzied Berzerker builds. No one in the right mind would try to claim a pure Sorcerer is in the top two most powerful classes. Don't talk such rot. If you combine a Sorc with Paladin and make a gish out of them, then okay, that's a bit better, but that's little more than creating a mage that can fight like a paladin.

Ever hearrd of Bigby's Forceful Hand? Shadow Simulacrum? Mirror Image? Displacement? Disjunction? Its impossible to beat a well played wizard/sorc in pvp there. Wail of the banshee, undeath to death, banishment and EK prc for goblins cover the pvm side. Your statements just prove you arent competent enough.

Modifié par MANoob, 23 novembre 2009 - 11:05 .

[F-C]

MANoob wrote...

Ever hearrd of Bigby's Forceful Hand? Shadow Simulacrum? Mirror Image? Displacement? Disjunction? Its impossible to beat a well played wizard/sorc in pvp there. Wail of the banshee, undeath to death, banishment and EK prc for goblins cover the pvm side. Your statements just prove you arent competent enough.

i never cared about 'pvp' in nwn2, but only the game itself.

and as i stated earlier, sure mages had some nice high level spells that were useful, but after 1 or 2 encounters you were out and needing to rest, dealing with getting ambushed, doing 1 or 2 more encounters and resting again...

while my uber melee guy was clearing out the entire area without even slowing down between running from group to group and never needing to stop and rest. if you stacked your mage and healer up with buff spells you could do several zones in a row before needing to stop and rest at all.

if you think mages were good in nwn2 outside of some stupid pvp then you had no idea how to build a melee.

Modifié par F-C, 23 novembre 2009 - 11:11 .

[MANoob]

F-C wrote...

MANoob wrote...

Ever hearrd of Bigby's Forceful Hand? Shadow Simulacrum? Mirror Image? Displacement? Disjunction? Its impossible to beat a well played wizard/sorc in pvp there. Wail of the banshee, undeath to death, banishment and EK prc for goblins cover the pvm side. Your statements just prove you arent competent enough.

i never cared about 'pvp' in nwn2, but only the game itself.

and as i stated earlier, sure mages had some nice high level spells that were useful, but after 1 or 2 encounters you were out and needing to rest, dealing with getting ambushed, doing 1 or 2 more encounters and resting again...

while my uber melee guy was clearing out the entire area without even slowing down between running from group to group and never needing to stop and rest. if you stacked your mage and healer up with buff spells you could do several zones in a row before needing to stop and rest at all.

if you think mages were good in nwn2 outside of some stupid pvp then you had no idea how to build a melee.

I have quite extensive experience with character optimization in nwn. Ive also soloed through SoZ and most hardcore modules as a mage. If you find yourself out of spells then youre just not using them efficiently enough, or you are playing in a setting with VERY limited rest (in this case you just pick EK and continue to pwn). There are lots of low levels spells that are often overlooked, but can wipe whole squads at low levels (sleep for instance).

And If you didnt care about pvp that means you didnt play any pws? So you are arguing about being powerful in nwn campaings with their pathetic difficulty? You can finish them with a wizard dualwielding katanas and pumping dex I bet.

Modifié par MANoob, 23 novembre 2009 - 11:26 .

[JaegerBane]

MANoob wrote...
Thats not about gear. Of course you rely on some gear, but abilities make the difference. It would be kinda stupid if you say that a warrior sucks because he deals crap damage with fists.

... but that's precisely what is being said about mages. That with good gear they're unstoppable. It just so happens the mage abilities tend to burn out pretty quickly without gear, but as you've pointed out, mages are not alone in this regard.

So why do mages get singled out?

Ever hearrd of <arbitrarily chosen list of the very best arcane spells and no mention of any downsides to arcane casters>

Yep, funnily enough. Heard of all them. I've also heard about +5d6 elemental blades of doom, +10 strength belts and the concept of having to rest to regain spells, but not required for anything combat related. This is a very old argument Boob, it doesn't speak highly of your understanding of the matter that you think it can be solved just by moaning about Bigby's and concealment.

[MANoob]

JaegerBane wrote...

Yep, funnily enough. Heard of all them. I've also heard about +5d6 elemental blades of doom, +10 strength belts and the concept of having to rest to regain spells, but not required for anything combat related. This is a very old argument Boob, it doesn't speak highly of your understanding of the matter that you think it can be solved just by moaning about Bigby's and concealment.

You can use instant death spells against mobs and dont care about damage. If rest is very limited, and gear is very OPed just get EK and youll be able to clear the trash with ease, while being much more effective vs tougher opponents than a regular warrior.

[JaegerBane]

MANoob wrote...
You can use instant death spells against mobs and dont care about damage. If rest is very limited, and gear is very OPed just get EK and youll be able to clear the trash with ease, while being much more effective vs tougher opponents than a regular warrior.

Yes, I'm quite aware that I can use spells to kill things.

My point is not that spells don't work. My point is that magic has a huge barrier slapped in front of it in the form of the rest mechanic, one which warriors simply do not have to deal with.

The fact that you're claiming mages are powerful by being able to use EKs to resort to combat pretty much proves the point that playing a pure mage in NWN2 is the lesser option. It never bothered me as I love playing gishes, but any claim that Sorcs and Wizzies fall under 'the most powerful' banner in NWN2 is a claim made by someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

That's a major reason I enjoy DA:O. Being a pure mage is actually such a powerful option that I actually considered turning away from playing my beloved gish-build (it didn't work, but meh). Hell, my AW/BM mage doesn't even wear armour.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 23 novembre 2009 - 11:31 .

[MANoob]

JaegerBane wrote...

MANoob wrote...
You can use instant death spells against mobs and dont care about damage. If rest is very limited, and gear is very OPed just get EK and youll be able to clear the trash with ease, while being much more effective vs tougher opponents than a regular warrior.

Yes, I'm quite aware that I can use spells to kill things.

My point is not that spells don't work. My point is that magic has a huge barrier slapped in front of it in the form of the rest mechanic, one which warriors simply do not have to deal with.

The fact that you're claiming mages are powerful by being able to use EKs to resort to combat pretty much proves the point that playing a pure mage in NWN2 is the lesser option. It never bothered me as I love playing gishes, but any claim that Sorcs and Wizzies fall under 'the most powerful' banner in NWN2 is a claim made by someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

That's a major reason I enjoy DA:O. Being a pure mage is actually such a powerful option that I actually considered turning away from playing my beloved gish-build (it didn't work, but meh). Hell, my AW/BM mage doesn't even wear armour.

NWN 2: OC. Unlimited rest. Mages are just ridiculously powerful.
NWN 2: MOTB: They tried to limit rest, but there were ways to devour your summons and lower hunger so again unlimited rest and mages are ridiculously powerful.
NWN 2: SOZ: Did a better job limiting rest, so you needed EK or SD, or at least some invisibility spells and stealth skills to solo it as a mage. Pure mage still totally viable and powerful in a party.

Modifié par MANoob, 23 novembre 2009 - 11:39 .

[JaegerBane]

MANoob wrote...
NWN 2: OC. Unlimited rest. Mages are just ridiculously powerful.
NWN 2: MOTB: They tried to limit rest, but there were ways to devour your summons and lower hunger so again unlimited rest and mages are ridiculously powerful.
NWN 2: SOZ: Did a better job limiting rest, so you needed EK or SD, or at least some invisibility spells and stealth skills to solo it as a mage. Pure mage still totally viable and powerful in a party.

*sigh* For the last time, I'm not debating that pure mages are viable, or that spells work, or that individual campaigns had their own methods for minimising the impact of resting.

My point, all along, is that pure mages are artificially handicapped in NWN2 in comparison to warriors. Yes, unlimited resting blah blah blah, I know. The point is not that mages were unplayable, the point is that compared to warriors in each case, they suffered major handicaps. It doesn't mean anything to say 'you can devour your summons so they are ridiculously powerful' when you could be playing a warrior with Perfect Two Weapon fighting and a pair of +8 Alchemical Silver longswords with +5d6 damage and health regen gear. The warrior didn't need to devour anything.

Seriously, the damage potential between a sorc/wiz and a warrior in MotB was like night and day. Damage spells capped out. Instakill spells eventually ran out, or didn;t work on certain enemies. Warriors simply didn't have that problem when they were hitting for 100+ damage per hit with 10+ frigging attacks.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 23 novembre 2009 - 11:48 .

[MANoob]

JaegerBane wrote...

MANoob wrote...
NWN 2: OC. Unlimited rest. Mages are just ridiculously powerful.
NWN 2: MOTB: They tried to limit rest, but there were ways to devour your summons and lower hunger so again unlimited rest and mages are ridiculously powerful.
NWN 2: SOZ: Did a better job limiting rest, so you needed EK or SD, or at least some invisibility spells and stealth skills to solo it as a mage. Pure mage still totally viable and powerful in a party.

*sigh* For the last time, I'm not debating that pure mages are viable, or that spells work, or that individual campaigns had their own methods for minimising the impact of resting.

My point, all along, is that pure mages are artificially handicapped in NWN2 in comparison to warriors. Yes, unlimited resting blah blah blah, I know. The point is not that mages were unplayable, the point is that compared to warriors in each case, they suffered major handicaps. It doesn't mean anything to say 'you can devour your summons so they are ridiculously powerful' when you could be playing a warrior with Perfect Two Weapon fighting and a pair of +8 Alchemical Silver longswords with +5d6 damage and health regen gear. The warrior didn't need to devour anything.

Seriously, the damage potential between a sorc/wiz and a warrior in MotB was like night and day. Damage spells capped out. Instakill spells eventually ran out, or didn;t work on certain enemies. Warriors simply didn't have that problem when they were hitting for 100+ damage per hit with 10+ frigging attacks.

Cast wail of the banshee or undeath to death vs undead. Watch things die. You dont care how much HP they have. They die in a second. You dont care how much damage your fireball  deals. Then eat your elemental and rest. The fact that it was easy to finish MOTB with a warrior doesnt change the fact it was equally easy as a wizard. In fact, MOTB difficulty was just pathetic. Thats why I didnt care about singleplayer much, and I assure you, my wizzards kicked some serious butt on pws.

[JaegerBane]

MANoob wrote...
Cast wail of the banshee or undeath to death vs undead. Watch things die. You dont care how much HP they have. They die in a second. You dont care how much damage your fireball  deals. Then eat your elemental and rest. The fact that it was easy to finish MOTB with a warrior doesnt change the fact it was equally easy as a wizard.

I'm not sure how more clearly I can put this. YOU CANNOT HAVE UNLIMITED CASTS. YOU CAN HAVE UNLIMITED ATTACKS. There isn't really much more to the argument than that. Ignoring it by banging on about spamming Wails and UtDs doesn't somehow change it. Once those have gone - which they will, given the Will saves seen in MotB - the mage is stuck. The only way you can get around it is either cheesing out on rest/suppress cycles or going gish. This is common knowledge on the NWN2 forums.

The relative ease of the game is irrelevant. The caster classes were way behind the warriors. DA:O doesn't do this. And that as my point.

[Nixyss]

I feel that like all classes mages better at certain levels.For example a mid level mage can blow through mid level warriors but later in the game or in the lower levels the fighter would probably win if he made his saves.... It really depends on the equipment and the player. Mages just seem to do better then fighters do if they each basic equipment.



I soloed the NWN OC with a mage a few trouble spots but it was not to bad. A lot of that is just preparing for the battle rather in fighters case changing tactics while in the fight already.

[BelgarathMTH]

My opinion is that Bioware designed this as a role-playing game for people who want to play a character in a great story, and not for power gamers. A mage is only ueberpowerful in this game if you don't care about hurting your party members with friendly fire. A good mage would never do this, rendering any friendly fire capable spell essentially useless.



I don't think powergamers are ever going to be happy with this game. Role-players and story-lovers, on the other hand, are loving it.



I think Bioware has hit a total home run.