380 réponses à ce sujet

[Barquiel]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

"Shepard doesn't know how many ships will gets destroyed saving the DA,there is no way of knowing the fleet will be strong enough afterwards AND Shepard only has temporary controll of the Citadel,meaning Sovereign could regain control any second,leaving half of the fleet outside and allowing the portal to open. Saving the Council means a way heavier risk for all of the Galaxy." -Fentina

If we save the DA, the Alliance ships could keep their element of surprise and destroy the geth ahead of time. We lose 3-4 cruiser and Hackett doesn't have to worry about the geth anymore.

We would lose more firepower if the geth decide to flank the alliance fleet. What if the geth you failed to destroy prevent you from defeating Sovereign? I think sacrificing the council means a heavier risk for all the galaxy.

Modifié par Barquiel, 12 juin 2011 - 05:33 .

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

With the Reapers present and attacking the Galaxy in ME3, I think it's highly feasable for the Galaxy to understand and see/respect now why the Council was sacrificed (to prevent the Reapers from arriving then... when the galaxy wasn't as strong).

Congratulations! Now maybe you understand why some of us are saying 'wait until ME3 before judging the full results."

[DPSSOC]

Barquiel wrote...

I will never understand how not saving the Destiny Ascension makes any sense from a political(1) or a strategic(2) viewpoint. Saving the DA keeps the geth from interfering while attacking an unknown dreadnought.
"Let's hope the geth won't defend Sovereign (=their god) if it's attacked" seems a bit too optimistic...

1) It doesn't, sacrificing an HoS is in most cases political suicide.  However we do have greater concerns.

2) The Geth still have to deal with the Citadel fleet.  In order to attack the Alliance ships the Geth will be required to turn their backs on the Citadel fleet.  It's not hoping the Geth ignore the Alliance it's counting on the Citadel fleet to hold them.  Still why would the Geth rush to the defence of their god?  It's a god what hope could mere mortals have of slaying it.  Certainly the entire assault on Sovereign would seem to support this idea considering until Shepard kills Sovaren the Fifth fleet can't even make a dent in it.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

With the Reapers present and attacking the Galaxy in ME3, I think it's highly feasable for the Galaxy to understand and see/respect now why the Council was sacrificed (to prevent the Reapers from arriving then... when the galaxy wasn't as strong).

Congratulations! Now maybe you understand why some of us are saying 'wait until ME3 before judging the full results."

Which is completely irrelevant to the point I was making regarding the last 2 games and what would happen if the trend continued. Nothing different.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 juin 2011 - 05:51 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Barquiel wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

"Shepard doesn't know how many ships will gets destroyed saving the DA,there is no way of knowing the fleet will be strong enough afterwards AND Shepard only has temporary controll of the Citadel,meaning Sovereign could regain control any second,leaving half of the fleet outside and allowing the portal to open. Saving the Council means a way heavier risk for all of the Galaxy." -Fentina

If we save the DA, the Alliance ships could keep their element of surprise and destroy the geth ahead of time. We lose 3-4 cruiser and Hackett doesn't have to worry about the geth anymore.

We would lose more firepower if the geth decide to flank the alliance fleet. What if the geth you failed to destroy prevent you from defeating Sovereign? I think sacrificing the council means a heavier risk for all the galaxy.

Still not considering the Reaper threat.  Sovereign could retake the station at any moment...  With control of the station, not only could he summon the Reapers and commence galactic annihilation, but he could keep the arms closed so that no one could get to him.

 

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

With the Reapers present and attacking the Galaxy in ME3, I think it's highly feasable for the Galaxy to understand and see/respect now why the Council was sacrificed (to prevent the Reapers from arriving then... when the galaxy wasn't as strong).

Congratulations! Now maybe you understand why some of us are saying 'wait until ME3 before judging the full results."

Which is completely irrelevant to the point I was making regarding the last 2 games and what would happen if the trend continued. Nothing different.

Sorry, I keep forgetting that anything that doesn't agree with you is irrelevant. If the Council (and everyone else) change their minds again in ME3 (precident, the Council deciding in ME2 there are no reapers and Shepard suddenly forced by plot to work with Cerberus), then there is no such trend.

[Bailyn242]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Still forgetting the Reaper threat. If the Geth gave chase, a part of the squadron could break off and engage them. The focus would still be stopping Sovereign.  Having the Geth break formation and chase also puts them in a more vulnerable position than to charge right into their perimeter and oncoming missles.

Look at this quote from a youtube poster.  Grammer aside, see if what he/she's saying makes sense:

"Shepard doesn't know how many ships will gets destroyed saving the DA,there is no way of knowing the fleet will be strong enough afterwards AND Shepard only has temporary controll of the Citadel,meaning Sovereign could regain control any second,leaving half of the fleet outside and allowing the portal to open. Saving the Council means a way heavier risk for all of the Galaxy." -Fentina

So essentially, you'd let the DA die and THEN split your forces at the moment that you most need to concentrate them? Logical battle strategy there.

On the other hand you can get the Geth off the DA, then break and attack Sovereign with the combined forces. Some would hold off the Geth while the remainder hits Sovereign. "Screening units engage the Geth, all cruiser weight and larger ships engage Sovereign."

BTW, screening units are generally your lightest units and would be pea shooters against Sovereign.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

With the Reapers present and attacking the Galaxy in ME3, I think it's highly feasable for the Galaxy to understand and see/respect now why the Council was sacrificed (to prevent the Reapers from arriving then... when the galaxy wasn't as strong).

Congratulations! Now maybe you understand why some of us are saying 'wait until ME3 before judging the full results."

Which is completely irrelevant to the point I was making regarding the last 2 games and what would happen if the trend continued. Nothing different.

Sorry, I keep forgetting that anything that doesn't agree with you is irrelevant. If the Council (and everyone else) change their minds again in ME3 (precident, the Council deciding in ME2 there are no reapers and Shepard suddenly forced by plot to work with Cerberus), then there is no such trend.

Me speculating about ME3 doesn't replace the topic at hand (which is Paragon favoritism across the first 2 games and what would happen if the trend continues).

And what "could" happen has no bearing on what "will" happen.  Sacrificing the Council could've resulted in less lives lost (it didn't).  Saving the Destiny Ascension could've cost us the galaxy (it didn't).  Making a Renegade choice could've had a positive (and presented as positive) benefit over the Paragon choice (it didn't).

They're mutually exclusive points.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Bailyn242 wrote...
So essentially, you'd let the DA die and THEN split your forces at the moment that you most need to concentrate them? Logical battle strategy there.

On the other hand you can get the Geth off the DA, then break and attack Sovereign with the combined forces. Some would hold off the Geth while the remainder hits Sovereign. "Screening units engage the Geth, all cruiser weight and larger ships engage Sovereign."

BTW, screening units are generally your lightest units and would be pea shooters against Sovereign.

Assuming any Geth didn't get blown up from behind by the remaining Citadel fleet, yes... Deal with them if you need to and on better footing than flying into an ambush of missles.  All the while, going after Sovereign as soon as possible (preferably before he retakes the station and kills everyone).

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 juin 2011 - 06:04 .

[Bailyn242]

@Mr. Gogeta43

I'm sorry that you prefer short posts to somehow express complex ideas. I forget I'm in a gamer forum. If you think my posts are long you ought to drop by David Weber's forums, the SciFi author of the Honor Harrington Series among others. Long posts are the norm. David himself rarely posts less than 3K words.

The key is of course formatting and sometimes I fail to break up the post into short enough paragraphs.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Bailyn242 wrote...

@Mr. Gogeta43

I'm sorry that you prefer short posts to somehow express complex ideas. I forget I'm in a gamer forum. If you think my posts are long you ought to drop by David Weber's forums, the SciFi author of the Honor Harrington Series among others. Long posts are the norm. David himself rarely posts less than 3K words.

The key is of course formatting and sometimes I fail to break up the post into short enough paragraphs.

Huh?  I've never had a problem with your posts.  You're cool with me.  I was talking about that other guy that doesn't [ quote ] anything I say but just posts about differnt points in a giant wall of text.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 juin 2011 - 06:06 .

[Barquiel]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Still not considering the Reaper threat.  Sovereign could retake the station at any moment...  With control of the station, not only could he summon the Reapers and commence galactic annihilation, but he could keep the arms closed so that no one could get to him.

How?

Sovereign needs an inside man to open the relay...that is Saren. He shot himself/was killed by you (Shep doesn't know Sovereign is able to bring him back as a synthetic )

[GuardianAngel470]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

With the Reapers present and attacking the Galaxy in ME3, I think it's highly feasable for the Galaxy to understand and see/respect now why the Council was sacrificed (to prevent the Reapers from arriving then... when the galaxy wasn't as strong).

Congratulations! Now maybe you understand why some of us are saying 'wait until ME3 before judging the full results."

Which is completely irrelevant to the point I was making regarding the last 2 games and what would happen if the trend continued. Nothing different.

Sorry, I keep forgetting that anything that doesn't agree with you is irrelevant. If the Council (and everyone else) change their minds again in ME3 (precident, the Council deciding in ME2 there are no reapers and Shepard suddenly forced by plot to work with Cerberus), then there is no such trend.

Me speculating about ME3 doesn't replace the topic at hand (which is Paragon favoritism across the first 2 games and what would happen if the trend continues).

And what "could" happen has no bearing on what "will" happen.  Sacrificing the Council could've resulted in less lives lost (it didn't).  Saving the Destiny Ascension could've cost us the galaxy (it didn't).  Making a Renegade choice could've had a positive (and presented as positive) benefit over the Paragon choice (it didn't).

They're mutually exclusive points.

Small correction: Sacrificing the council does result in less lives lost, unless you take into account the size and population of the DA. I believe it was 8 Alliance warships are destroyed if you save the DA vs None if you don't. 

So yeah, sacrificing the council does result in at least less human lives lost.

Feel free to continue without me.

[Barquiel]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


Small correction: Sacrificing the council does result in less lives lost, unless you take into account the size and population of the DA. I believe it was 8 Alliance warships are destroyed if you save the DA vs None if you don't. 

So yeah, sacrificing the council does result in at least less human lives lost.

Feel free to continue without me.

Sovereign destroys some alliance ships. I think renegades lose 3-4 alliance ships too (paragons:8)

[Master Wolf]

The critical factor in that decison is not the number of forces, is not the number of lives lost, is not the political consquences of the decison, the critical factor is time, we don't know how much time we will have before we lose the control of the station or how much it will take for Sovereign to open the rellay if that happens the number of forces remainning will be irrelevant, the number of lives lost will be astronomical high and the politics will be irrelevant because each star system will be isolated.

All comes down to time if you belive there is enought to save the DA or if there will be no time for that, history proves that there is enought time to save the DA but Shepard as character don't have the luxury of knowing what will be the outcome a more idealistic one will belive that everything will go well, a more pragmatic one will not belive that is worththe risk.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Barquiel wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Still not considering the Reaper threat.  Sovereign could retake the station at any moment...  With control of the station, not only could he summon the Reapers and commence galactic annihilation, but he could keep the arms closed so that no one could get to him.

How?

Sovereign needs an inside man to open the relay...that is Saren. He shot himself/was killed by you (Shep doesn't know Sovereign is able to bring him back as a synthetic )

Sovereign uses an inside man to open the relay (Saren) but Sovereign can get control remotely.. and on his own. 

"In a few minutes, Sovereign will have control over all Citadel Systems.  The Relay will open.  The Reapers will return."
-Saren

In other words, Sovereign would be the one opening the relay... he just needed a connection to the relay, once the "download link" is given, he can get to it on his own.

Heck, indoctrination itself is a remote connection.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 juin 2011 - 06:30 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Barquiel wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


Small correction: Sacrificing the council does result in less lives lost, unless you take into account the size and population of the DA. I believe it was 8 Alliance warships are destroyed if you save the DA vs None if you don't. 

So yeah, sacrificing the council does result in at least less human lives lost.

Feel free to continue without me.

Sovereign destroys some alliance ships. I think renegades lose 3-4 alliance ships too (paragons:8)

Yeah, human lives are taken even if you sacrifice the Council.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 juin 2011 - 06:22 .

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Me speculating about ME3 doesn't replace the topic at hand (which is Paragon favoritism across the first 2 games and what would happen if the trend continues).

And what "could" happen has no bearing on what "will" happen.  Sacrificing the Council could've resulted in less lives lost (it didn't).  Saving the Destiny Ascension could've cost us the galaxy (it didn't).  Making a Renegade choice could've had a positive (and presented as positive) benefit over the Paragon choice (it didn't).

They're mutually exclusive points.

What do you mean no bearing? If it couldn't happen, by definition it won't happen. There is an obvious correlation between what is possible and what will occur. You also continue to misprepresent the choice. It isn't immediately save the DA vs immediately concentrate on Sovereign. It is immediately save the DA vs stay in reserve and concentrate on Sovereign later, which doesn't happen to be until after the DA is down and the enemy ships that were attacking it are free to concentrate on your fleet.

And you cite 'expert advice' from..... whoever is with you at the time despite them having no clue of the battlefield and regardless of any naval training or lack thereof. It can be ash and wrex and you get the same 'one says save them one says let them die.'

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Sovereign uses an inside man to open the relay (Saren) but Sovereign can get control remotely.. and on his own. 

"In a few minutes, Sovereign will have control over all Citadel Systems.  The Relay will open.  The Reapers will return."
-Saren

In other words, Sovereign would be the one opening the relay... he just needed a connection to the relay, once the "download link" is given, he can get to it on his own.

Heck, indoctrination itself is a remote connection.

Sovereign is trying (and utterly failing) to convince Shepard to give up. The prothean program disrupts Sovereign's link in the same way the Keepers were cut off.

And the arms don't open until the DA is saved or dead anyway, which renders the time factor rather moot.

[jbblue05]

Moiaussi wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Sovereign uses an inside man to open the relay (Saren) but Sovereign can get control remotely.. and on his own. 

"In a few minutes, Sovereign will have control over all Citadel Systems.  The Relay will open.  The Reapers will return."
-Saren

In other words, Sovereign would be the one opening the relay... he just needed a connection to the relay, once the "download link" is given, he can get to it on his own.

Heck, indoctrination itself is a remote connection.

Sovereign is trying (and utterly failing) to convince Shepard to give up. The prothean program disrupts Sovereign's link in the same way the Keepers were cut off.

And the arms don't open until the DA is saved or dead anyway, which renders the time factor rather moot.

If you sacrifice the Council the Arms are already open 
In the cutscene the Alliance is descending upon Sovereign and the DA is destroyed in a bluje explosion at the same time.

[Bailyn242]

Gogeta34, you keep harping on your perception that paragons are favored and as I and others have demonstrated that is not the case. To date the differences between the two have been largely cosmetic. Paragons get cameos and renegades get more satisfying interrupts and shorter fights.

As has been brought up, a great many of these we are still awaiting resolution on. Kill/Save the Council, we're not certain how it will work. From what has been mentioned during ME2 newscasts, the Turians should have a larger and more powerful fleet as a renegade but it should be harder to recruit the Council races.

The reason I keep coming back to this is that I don't want to see the renegade choices made completely invalid by removing the consquences of those choices. Lorik Quin would have worked but on the same scale, renegades should have had a FAR harder time dealing with any non-humans in ME2. That would better reflect the lack of trust created by renegade Shepard's decisions.

Renegade Shepard, with the Cerberus is right attitude should have a real **** of a time defending Tali, as in much Higher Renegade score to pull off the dialog option. That's consequence. Shorter and easier fights but because you're such a loose cannon people should be afraid and not trust to to leave them alive.

Renegade Shepard should be more readily recognized as a threat because his/her face is on every wanted poster in space. It becomes a totally new game with this dev strategy, a renegade playthrough means that you are trying to stop the collectors while dodging bounty hunters and law enforcement at every turn. You are part of a terrorist group now and have a history of doing what is expedient to get the job done as quickly and efficiently as possible, regardless of the cost in lives.

Obviously that would have turned Mass Effect into something twice the size and development time. By shifting the result of these choices to cameos (for ME2) and move the real impact into the final game. This keeps the dev time down and logically makes sense when you consider that ME3 is now delayed 3 months longer than their initial announcement.

[Moiaussi]

jbblue05 wrote...

If you sacrifice the Council the Arms are already open 
In the cutscene the Alliance is descending upon Sovereign and the DA is destroyed in a bluje explosion at the same time.

That is when it actually explodes. It already has catestrophic damage by that time. If you save the Council, the DA gets the all clear just as the arms are opening.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 12 juin 2011 - 08:48 .

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

It's been pointed out to you many times how they are not balanced. You can't even dispute it because the lack of content is self-evident. You might think it is merely cosmetic, but it is still a unique feature of the import system. A feature Renegades frequently miss out on.

Renegades get different unique content, such as a longer talk with Anderson replacing the talk with the Council. You just dismiss it claiming it isn't the unique content you want or isn't identical unique content, or whatever.

You get different news reports. You still get a feros colonist, just not Shiala.... If the import feature didn't matter, there would be no differences.