380 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

You're missing the point of the choice anyway. When you save the DA you lose ships to use against Sovereign.

So the Geth ships that were shooting the DA just decide their work there is done and all go home while you are shooting Sovereign? How does patiently waiting in line to be shot at make any sense?

[Bailyn242]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Gogeta34, you keep harping on your perception that paragons are favored and as I and others have demonstrated that is not the case.

It's been pointed out to you many times how they are not balanced. You can't even dispute it because the lack of content is self-evident. You might think it is merely cosmetic, but it is still a unique feature of the import system. A feature Renegades frequently miss out on.

And by skipping the rest of my post you ignore my point. There has been little to no real difference between the consequences once you include the interrupt benefits for renegades. You also repeatedly ignore the point that very few choices that drive the story have been resolved so far. You point to the cameos and I've demonstrated that making them available to renegades you make renegade  even more of an "I win" button than you claim Paragon is.

Can you dispute that the lions share of the renegade interrupts are far more fun and cooler than paragon?

There are rewards for both and we've yet to see any consequence of import AT ALL. You also miss the likely reason for why that is. Developing every consequence for ME! imports into ME2 would have extended the development time considerably, possibly even to the point of having to create 2 separate games (one paragon and the other renegade). By postponing those moments of consequence until the third installment they will be able to spend the time to put together a much better product. At this point they know all the decision points and don't have to worry about more of them cropping up as the third game plays. You can show a consequence for ME3 choices in ME3.

Modifié par Bailyn242, 12 juin 2011 - 09:06 .

[Bailyn242]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

And by skipping the rest of my post you ignore my point. There has been little to no real difference between the consequences...

I. Am. Not. Talking. About. CONSEQUENCES!

But that is a part of what it is all about. You folks are the ones DEMANDING PARAGON BE PUNISHED!!! 

That takes you and your ilk into the realm of consequence and makes your claims that it isn't about consequence nothing more than posturing while you DEMAND others be punished.

You claim that there is more content for paragons and I argue that there is different content for paragons. You buy the game you get the same amount of content. Both options are on the disk so your pissing about it like you got robbed is ludicrous, you got just as much content, it is your choice to play all of it or just a subset of it.

[Bailyn242]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sigh. I could repeat myself again, but why bother?

My thoughts exactly, your position has hardened so much that you have no desire to put together real suggestions of how this could be handled other than "gimme". At least Dean put some examples out there, admittedly I didn't agree with all of them but it was a start.

If what you're really trying to do is make practical suggestions for the devs then put some real examples up of how renegades could get something similar to what the paragons did without breaking the key element that choices have consequences.

That's really what I've been hoping for rather than this whinging or hand wringing.

I've already suggested that there could have been more wanted posters / bounties for renegade Shep. More action, more actual gameplay than anything the paragons have gotten yet still a consequence.

Heck, something that would have been really cool for a renegade would be having some punk step out and try to shoot you in the face. once you subdue him you find out that his parents died when you took out the Biotic Extremists and killed all the hostages at the same time.

Practical contribution instead of screaming GIMME! or I HATE PARAGONS / PARAGONS ARE DUMB.

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...
No, they'll be distracted by the rest of the Council fleet coming in to save the DA (and failing). Or did you think the Citadel fleet was ignoring the DA's distress calls? If the DA dies you see the rest of the fleet approaching the geth right at that moment.

In addition to that, if this were a valid concern for the battle it would have been brought up in the narrative when you make the choice.

Instead the choice is presented as: save DA and have fewere ships against Sovereign or lose the DA and have more ships against Sovereign.

Ah, the rest of the Council fleet that is suddenly miraculously free to do any such thing. And as they give up their current targets to do as you suggest, meaning that even more Geth survive, why exactly do the now even more numericly superior Geth ignore the Alliance fleet that is not just shooting at their God, but also what you are citing as the most important ship in the battle?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

What do you mean no bearing? If it couldn't happen, by definition it won't happen. There is an obvious correlation between what is possible and what will occur. You also continue to misprepresent the choice. It isn't immediately save the DA vs immediately concentrate on Sovereign. It is immediately save the DA vs stay in reserve and concentrate on Sovereign later, which doesn't happen to be until after the DA is down and the enemy ships that were attacking it are free to concentrate on your fleet.

And you cite 'expert advice' from..... whoever is with you at the time despite them having no clue of the battlefield and regardless of any naval training or lack thereof. It can be ash and wrex and you get the same 'one says save them one says let them die.'

I explained what I meant by no bearing... read what I said, lol.  A number of outcomes are "possible" but that doesn't mean Bioware will actually "do them."  They could've allowed you to meet the new Council if you sacrificed the old one... they just didn't.

And no, watch the cutscene, they are not "waiting."  They are moving toward Sovereign the entire time.  They held back on flying toward the DA and that's all that meant... it never meant "hang out until the DA is destroyed".  It meant "Go directly to Sovereign" and that's what happened.

All advice is on equal footing... Joker thinks they can save the Ascension and they're not there.  Your squad feels major casualties will result if you send the fleet there (and they're not there).  The point is that's how the game is giving you the choice to weigh.

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

What the hell are you talking about? Any free Council ships go to save the DA then then engage the geth attacking the DA. Those geth can't come after the Alliance and most any other geth are busy fighting the rest of the Citadel fleet. Those fleets, mind you, are scattered all over the nebula. Here and there a geth or Citadel ship will defeat the opposition and be free to attack the Alliance. There's nothing anyone can do about that and saving the DA just leaves the Alliance weaker.

You are assuming that there are free council ships. that is hardly a given. Why would any free ships be waiting for a distress call to help the DA?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...
Sovereign is trying (and utterly failing) to convince Shepard to give up. The prothean program disrupts Sovereign's link in the same way the Keepers were cut off.

And the arms don't open until the DA is saved or dead anyway, which renders the time factor rather moot.

Vigil tells you Sovereign will do this as well... you think he's trying to convince Shepard to give up too?  And the "time" factor is only moot post-choice because Bioware allowed the Paragon decision to win out.  They "could have" run out of time... they just didn't.  That's the difference between what could happen and what actually happens.

Bailyn242 wrote...

Gogeta34, you keep harping on your perception that paragons are favored and as I and others have demonstrated that is not the case. To date the differences between the two have been largely cosmetic. Paragons get cameos and renegades get more satisfying interrupts and shorter fights.

Each time a point has been brought up, the appropriate counter has been made... if you feel differently, lets reverse it and you explain to me the positive in-game benefits a Renegade choice has over the Paragon ones.

Interrupts don't allow for a Paragon option.  We've been comparing Paragon to Renegade choices in situations where you can actually compare them.

Lastly, Paragons get more than cameos, they get less lives lost to achieve the same end result, and more positive feedback/validation for making that choice (even to the point of complete opinion reversals).

Again, belittling Paragon extras don't make them any less extra.  "Oh they just agreed with that decision more.  Oh that just saved a few hundred more lives.  Oh that just allowed more characters to be in the game.  Oh that just worked out so that even in the face of galactic annihilation you've got time to put stopping sovereign on hold in order to save 3 people.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 juin 2011 - 10:32 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Gogeta34, you keep harping on your perception that paragons are favored and as I and others have demonstrated that is not the case.

It's been pointed out to you many times how they are not balanced. You can't even dispute it because the lack of content is self-evident. You might think it is merely cosmetic, but it is still a unique feature of the import system. A feature Renegades frequently miss out on.

Exactly.  Belittling Paragon extras don't make it any less "extra."

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

I explained what I meant by no bearing... read what I said, lol.  A number of outcomes are "possible" but that doesn't mean Bioware will actually "do them."  They could've allowed you to meet the new Council if you sacrificed the old one... they just didn't.

And no, watch the cutscene, they are not "waiting."  They are moving toward Sovereign the entire time.  They held back on flying toward the DA and that's all that meant... it never meant "hang out until the DA is destroyed".  It meant "Go directly to Sovereign" and that's what happened.

All advice is on equal footing... Joker thinks they can save the Ascension and they're not there.  Your squad feels major casualties will result if you send the fleet there (and they're not there).  The point is that's how the game is giving you the choice to weigh.

Advice from people who have no clue what the battlefield looks like is pretty useless advice. People holding idiot balls are not saying wise things simply because the writers gave them dialogue.

And as for the fleeing moving forward regardless, the fact remains that the DA is saved or is doomed before the Alliance gets shots in on Sovereign.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

Advice from people who have no clue what the battlefield looks like is pretty useless advice. People holding idiot balls are not saying wise things simply because the writers gave them dialogue.

And as for the fleeing moving forward regardless, the fact remains that the DA is saved or is doomed before the Alliance gets shots in on Sovereign.

Thing is, they're just as equally 'clueless.'  Joker's assumption that he can save the Ascension and your squad's statement of losing a lot of lives trying to save it.  But they were stated for Shepard to weigh.

And yes, that's the result that happened.  Should I say Paragon Favoritism again for this?

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Vigil tells you Sovereign will do this as well... you think he's trying to convince Shepard to give up too?  And the "time" factor is only moot post-choice because Bioware allowed the Paragon decision to win out.  They "could have" run out of time... they just didn't.  That's the difference between what could happen and what actually happens.

What did Vigil say that was false? When Saren falls, Sovereign reanimates his corpse personally. If Sovereign didn't need to manually get rid of the Prothean program, why bother doing so? Why not just ignore Shepard, or kill him by playing with life support or something?

That was still sovereign doing so, as well as sovereign doing so earlier via his indoctrination of Saren.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

So, tell me (going off of just Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2) where the Renegade choice provided the most positive outcome compared to the Paragon choice . This is open to anyone... good luck.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Vigil tells you Sovereign will do this as well... you think he's trying to convince Shepard to give up too?  And the "time" factor is only moot post-choice because Bioware allowed the Paragon decision to win out.  They "could have" run out of time... they just didn't.  That's the difference between what could happen and what actually happens.

What did Vigil say that was false? When Saren falls, Sovereign reanimates his corpse personally. If Sovereign didn't need to manually get rid of the Prothean program, why bother doing so? Why not just ignore Shepard, or kill him by playing with life support or something?

That was still sovereign doing so, as well as sovereign doing so earlier via his indoctrination of Saren.

Vigil was 100% correct.  And he said Sovereign would do the same thing Saren said he'd do.  Sovereign wanted to kill Shepard... he could've easily ignored him with his acrobatic self. 

He didn't... even though it was possible... because of what actually happened.

I'd say that Sovereign felt his pride was on the line.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 juin 2011 - 10:51 .

[Barquiel]

Pro-human renegades got exactly what they wanted...a human dominated council.

= positive outcome

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Thing is, they're just as equally 'clueless.'  Joker's assumption that he can save the Ascension and your squad's statement of losing a lot of lives trying to save it.  But they were stated for Shepard to weigh.

And yes, that's the result that happened.  Should I say Paragon Favoritism again for this?

It is only favouritism by way of there being no renegade 'save the DA' or 'engage the Geth NOW' option. Equally useless advice should just be ignored. And it isn't 'your squad's statement.' Joker says 'its an option.' One squad member says 'its a good option.' The other says 'its a bad option.'

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Further proof of Sovereign not using a proxy for Citadel control (once it was given to him) is the difference in time between when Shepard got it and when Saren got it.

Shepard didn't have to wait for control of Citadel systems. Saren did.. because he wasn't personally doing it... he was allowing for Sovereign to do it.

And Joker specifically says "We can save the Ascension."  He doesn't know for sure that they can do that.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 juin 2011 - 10:56 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Barquiel wrote...

Pro-human renegades got exactly what they wanted...a human dominated council.

= positive outcome

Lets assume that's the same as the positive outcome of saving the Council and call ME1 "Even" on that front.  (Paragons = I want the old Council/Renegades = I want the new Council... fair enough?)

Continue... what happens in ME2?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Thing is, they're just as equally 'clueless.'  Joker's assumption that he can save the Ascension and your squad's statement of losing a lot of lives trying to save it.  But they were stated for Shepard to weigh.

And yes, that's the result that happened.  Should I say Paragon Favoritism again for this?

It is only favouritism by way of there being no renegade 'save the DA' or 'engage the Geth NOW' option. Equally useless advice should just be ignored. And it isn't 'your squad's statement.' Joker says 'its an option.' One squad member says 'its a good option.' The other says 'its a bad option.'

I can link you directly to a video of Joker saying "We can save the Ascension..."  I'll do it too ya know

[goofyomnivore]

It would of been more balanced had the Alliance Fleet been crippled from saving the DA and engaging Sovereign.

It would also help explain why the Council races really don't care that much about humanity. Why should we listen to them.. they're military irrelevant right now on the grand scale.. They have a weakened Fleet not like they can do anything to anyone.. they have just enough to intimidate the Batarians from invading which is ideal for us.