380 réponses à ce sujet

[Bailyn242]

The ludicrous thing about this argument is that we haven't seen the results of these choices as of yet. Other than the minor cameos and a couple store discounts there has been very little impact from our choices between renegade or paragon.

Now, I fully expect some of the paragon choices to land us a more difficult path ahead and the same with some of the renegade choices.

As someone has mentioned already, there are several Renegade interrupts that are of immediate benefit while the Paragon choice makes for a longer and harder fight. Most of the Paragon options are related to information (Veetor) for immediate impact, or cameos in the next game (Helena Blake, Conrad Verner etc.) Yes, Conrad can net you a sum total of 35000 in savings on Illium but other than that it is really just a cameo with a small bonus.

Now lets look at what we don't know what will be the result:

Collector Base: This could go either way although I expect that if you gave it to Cerberus it's gonna hurt come ME3

Rewrite or Kill the Geth: This will hurt either way Paragon or Renegade and I am specifically setting up different playthroughs where I will have both choices. Since it seems like there is a good chance that some or a larger portion of the Geth as a whole are working for the Reapers, if you rewrote them that will increase the Reaper's forces and make the fight harder. If you killed them it may make it harder to recruit the remaining geth in ME3. This choice is gonna be a really interesting story in ME3 regardless and both options are going to have a significant impact on ME3.

The Rachni Queen: This one may very well make it harder to recruit some of the races and resolve the diplomatic dilemma. On top of that her people have already been indoctrinated once, could they end up yet again pawns of the reapers? Remember the Rachni are a hive race, indoctrinate the queen and you indoctrinate them all.

Basically what I'm saying is I find the Renegade whining, much ado about nothing. You're pissed because a perceived slight, one with little to any real basis in what the result will be in ME3.

Can you say paranoid delusions? Bioware is "out to get me and my friends" certainly has sounded that way, especially of late.

I find that particularly amusing since it looks like BW intends us all to pay some price for our choices in the final installment.

I, personally am looking forward to finding out how all my different playthroughs will change the war in the end.

Modifié par Bailyn242, 09 juin 2011 - 08:35 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The ludicrous thing about this argument is that we haven't seen the results of these choices as of yet. Other than the minor cameos and a couple store discounts there has been very little impact from our choices between renegade or paragon.

We've gone through 2 games and DLC for both games...  How much time should pass before benefits of any kind for the Renegade decisions manifest.  The benefits to Paragon choices have already come... and will continue coming in Mass Effect 3.

And you're repeating the same arguement of "it's not thaat bad... Renegades can still win" which isn't the point at all, so you need to read this too:

Read this very carefully and you'll understand what's going on here:

Renegades are supposed to be those who "sacrifice for the greater good."  That's exactly what Casey Hudson was talking about.  If there's no greater good for making that decision or sacrifice (compared to a choice they could have made.... like the Paragon choice), it defeats the purpose of making a tough choice.  Just pick the short-term moral "right" of the time and all will work out the best that they can.  The greatest "good" has always come from Paragon choices.

There's been nothing (in the game) demonstrated to be an advantageous outcome to making a Renegade decision compared to a Paragon one... which means the game favors Paragon choices (because they do have demonstrated advantages in-game/in-story).  Paragon favoritism... that's all I'm saying.

And these complaints are going out because I'd rather not "know" that the best outcome will result from the blue button no matter what the choice is and no matter how the odds are stacked.
 

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 09 juin 2011 - 08:49 .

[Nightwriter]

Makes sense to me, Gogeta.

I do believe you are saying it is set up something like:

Renegade: sacrifice much, achieve less.
Paragon: sacrifice nothing, achieve more.

It is clear which one is more advantageous.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

PS) I'm not 'pissed' at all, lol. I'm not even frustrated because of the choices I personally made...

I just want the game to actually allow you to think about the decisions you make... instead of "knowing" that the Paragon response will alwayas yield the best outcome (you don't even need to hear the situation anymore as it stands).

Nightwriter wrote...

Makes sense to me, Gogeta.

I do believe you are saying it is set up something like:

Renegade: sacrifice much, achieve less.
Paragon: sacrifice nothing, achieve more.

It is clear which one is more advantageous.

Something like that, yeah  Knowing what the 'best choice' is removes the need of trying to make the best choice.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 09 juin 2011 - 08:59 .

[Saaziel]

Just out of curiosity.

If by the end of Me3 , Renegade players got an in-game email saying that 1 billion more lives were saved due to all the sacrifices you were ready to make. Then it would have been worth it ,yes ?

And lets add that the Ice cream shop girl on Illium says "Hello handsome" instead of just "Hi".

Would this end justify the means ?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

That would seem like a change from both Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2 for even acknowledging a benefit to the decision post-epilogue.

But then I'd ask the question of how many lives were saved with the Paragon choices? 2 billion more?

If so, then no, the ends do not justify the means and it's just more Paragon favoritism.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 09 juin 2011 - 09:02 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

And for the Record, I'm defending Renegades a lot but I mostly make Paragon choices myself...  the issue I'm specifically bringing up just jeapardizes the entire notion of making a tough choice... which is one of the things you're supposed to enjoy about Mass Effect. 

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 09 juin 2011 - 09:05 .

[Saaziel]

No , its a Billion more ... Hell lets make it a Trillion more saved over the Paragon choices.

Hell the Paragons didn't get the recognition E-mail , and are denied Ice cream.

Will it be worth it then ?

Modifié par Saaziel, 09 juin 2011 - 09:08 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

If that ended up being the case, then yes now there's something to argue. Have some kind of dychotomy. More lives saved even if the galaxy is not on the best of terms with itself. Or stronger galactic unity even though more lives were lost. That's a lot more fair and different, even if you could argue your preference.

But currently, Paragons get both and Renegades get neither.

[Nightwriter]

That depends. Do the renegades want to be superior, or just on equal footing with paragons?

[Seboist]

Nightwriter wrote...

Makes sense to me, Gogeta.

I do believe you are saying it is set up something like:

Renegade: sacrifice much, achieve less.
Paragon: sacrifice nothing, achieve more.

It is clear which one is more advantageous.

Yep, let's take a look at the outcomes with the Council decision from ME1.

Paragon: Save the Council AND destroy Sovereign with minimal losses. There's no indicator humanity is militarily weaker and nobody gives a damn you sacrificed human lives to save alien politicians. Shepard gets to see the Council and is high fived by aliens everywhere on the Citadel.

Renegade: You get to destroy Sovereign but there's no indicator humanity is any stronger from it. Shepard isn't able to see the human-led Council and aliens openly talk smack to his face.

Now let's take a look at ME2's CB decision.

Paragon: Every squadmate is high fiving Shepard for destroying it including the ones who were for keeping it.

Renegade: Every squadmate scolds Shepard for being an idiot including the ones who were for keeping it.

Not to mention there's the whole Cerberus railroading with ME3....

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Seboist wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Makes sense to me, Gogeta.

I do believe you are saying it is set up something like:

Renegade: sacrifice much, achieve less.
Paragon: sacrifice nothing, achieve more.

It is clear which one is more advantageous.

Yep, let's take a look at the outcomes with the Council decision from ME1.

Paragon: Save the Council AND destroy Sovereign with minimal losses. There's no indicator humanity is militarily weaker and nobody gives a damn you sacrificed human lives to save alien politicians. Shepard gets to see the Council and is high fived by aliens everywhere on the Citadel.

Renegade: You get to destroy Sovereign but there's no indicator humanity is any stronger from it. Shepard isn't able to see the human-led Council and aliens openly talk smack to his face.

Now let's take a look at ME2's CB decision.

Paragon: Every squadmate is high fiving Shepard for destroying it including the ones who were for keeping it.

Renegade: Every squadmate scolds Shepard for being an idiot including the ones who were for keeping it.

Not to mention there's the whole Cerberus railroading with ME3....

And even then, Alliance seems weaker, they have trouble meeting hiring quotas in Mass Effect 2 (for the Renegade decision).

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 09 juin 2011 - 09:21 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Nightwriter wrote...

That depends. Do the renegades want to be superior, or just on equal footing with paragons?

In-game, a Renegade has no idea a Paragon exists.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 09 juin 2011 - 09:17 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

thurmanator692 wrote...

That happens for paragons too

Which wut?

[Nightwriter]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

That depends. Do the renegades want to be superior, or just on equal footing with paragons?

In-game, a Renegade has no idea a Paragon exists.

The question is posed to players, not player characters.

[Nightwriter]

Seboist wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Makes sense to me, Gogeta.

I do believe you are saying it is set up something like:

Renegade: sacrifice much, achieve less.
Paragon: sacrifice nothing, achieve more.

It is clear which one is more advantageous.

Yep, let's take a look at the outcomes with the Council decision from ME1.

Paragon: Save the Council AND destroy Sovereign with minimal losses. There's no indicator humanity is militarily weaker and nobody gives a damn you sacrificed human lives to save alien politicians. Shepard gets to see the Council and is high fived by aliens everywhere on the Citadel.

Renegade: You get to destroy Sovereign but there's no indicator humanity is any stronger from it. Shepard isn't able to see the human-led Council and aliens openly talk smack to his face.

So how would this example be corrected? Should you gain animosity from your fellow humans for sacrificing human lives to save aliens? Even if doing so got your species a spot on the Council? 

[vanslyke85]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Replay value has nothing to do with this issue... and it's not about "right" and "wrong" choices, both accomplish their objectives. But the problem that defeates the notion of a "hard choice" is when the Paragon choices have yielded "better" results every time with regard to content, lives lost, and positive validation is concerned.

It's not a "hard decision" if you know that the Paragon option = the best option. If your goal is to save the most lives (for example) then just hit the blue button, it doesn't matter what the choice is... that's the issue I'm "whining" about.

There's never been a time where the Renegade choice has yielded "Better" end results than making a Paragon choice thusfar... and that's an unfortunate and clear bias.


And for the record, the scope of features Bioware offers is no excuse for Paragon favoritism.  It is what it is.

I don't understand why people get pissy when their decision to kill people, blow factories up, insult people, throw people off buildings, and basically be an ass, turns out to maybe not be the best in a save the galaxy & recruit allies type of game...if you wanna be a renegade you have to deal with renegade results. 

[Bailyn242]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The ludicrous thing about this argument is that we haven't seen the results of these choices as of yet. Other than the minor cameos and a couple store discounts there has been very little impact from our choices between renegade or paragon.

We've gone through 2 games and DLC for both games...  How much time should pass before benefits of any kind for the Renegade decisions manifest.  The benefits to Paragon choices have already come... and will continue coming in Mass Effect 3.

And you're repeating the same arguement of "it's not thaat bad... Renegades can still win" which isn't the point at all, so you need to read this too:

Read this very carefully and you'll understand what's going on here:

Renegades are supposed to be those who "sacrifice for the greater good."  That's exactly what Casey Hudson was talking about.  If there's no greater good for making that decision or sacrifice (compared to a choice they could have made.... like the Paragon choice), it defeats the purpose of making a tough choice.  Just pick the short-term moral "right" of the time and all will work out the best that they can.  The greatest "good" has always come from Paragon choices.

There's been nothing (in the game) demonstrated to be an advantageous outcome to making a Renegade decision compared to a Paragon one... which means the game favors Paragon choices (because they do have demonstrated advantages in-game/in-story).  Paragon favoritism... that's all I'm saying.

And these complaints are going out because I'd rather not "know" that the best outcome will result from the blue button no matter what the choice is and no matter how the odds are stacked.
 

OK READ THIS CAREFULLY

Renegade interrupts have instant benefits as well, they involve shortening fights and and general making them easier/shorter. You have gotten them but most are interrupts rather than paragon dialog choices.

Paragon choices have largely been long term influencers that we have yet to see their impact. From the ones that we have seen the bulk of them have been cameos or a small discount at a store. When we have seen them they have been little emails and brief cameos.

All the major Paragon/Renegade decisions have either had a cameo impact (Wrex) story impact that had no real change to your playthrough (Council: spectre/not spectre... vitriol from a few people on the citadel) and even though you made a paragon choice some still "see it as a coup" regardless. In the latter case this was a case of the very thing you're whinging about. I made the paragon choice to make Anderson Councillor and save the Council but I'm still forced to work for Cerberus and no one trusted me because I worked with the Council. The rest of the major Paragon / Renegade choices have yet to make their impact felt.

So lets do a little exercise here renegades please list all of the paragon rewards and renegade lost rewards and document their impact on the world so far. Do that first so we can all look at the same datum, then we'll review them. Unfortunately I suspect that you've already decided that this is happening regardless of what real analysis of your complaints result in.

Modifié par Bailyn242, 09 juin 2011 - 09:38 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

vanslyke85 wrote...

I don't understand why people get pissy when their decision to kill people, blow factories up, insult people, throw people off buildings, and basically be an ass, turns out to maybe not be the best in a save the galaxy & recruit allies type of game...if you wanna be a renegade you have to deal with renegade results. 

Besides being isolated incidents (what Renegades do between the major choices) and the major decisions being the "sacrifice for the greater good" that Casey Hudson was talking about? 

You also need to read this because it seems like you've missed it:

Renegades are supposed to be those who "sacrifice for the greater good."  That's exactly what Casey Hudson was talking about.  If there's no greater good for making that decision or sacrifice (compared to a choice they could have made.... like the Paragon choice), it defeats the purpose of making a tough choice.  Just pick the short-term moral "right" of the time and all will work out the best that they can.  The greatest "good" has always come from Paragon choices.

There's been nothing (in the game) demonstrated to be an advantageous outcome to making a Renegade decision compared to a Paragon one... which means the game favors Paragon choices (because they do have demonstrated advantages in-game/in-story).  Paragon favoritism... that's all I'm saying.

And these complaints are going out because I'd rather not "know" that the best outcome will result from the blue button no matter what the choice is and no matter how the odds are stacked.

[Nightwriter]

vanslyke85 wrote...

I don't understand why people get pissy when their decision to kill people, blow factories up, insult people, throw people off buildings, and basically be an ass, turns out to maybe not be the best in a save the galaxy & recruit allies type of game...if you wanna be a renegade you have to deal with renegade results. 

You're over-generalizing renegades, I think. I know a guy who has a full renegade meter but has never selected a single Douche Shepard dialogue option. But he killed the rachni queen, kept the collector base, destroyed the heretics, etc -- all arguably defensible decisions.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 09 juin 2011 - 09:43 .

[Seboist]

Nightwriter wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Makes sense to me, Gogeta.

I do believe you are saying it is set up something like:

Renegade: sacrifice much, achieve less.
Paragon: sacrifice nothing, achieve more.

It is clear which one is more advantageous.

Yep, let's take a look at the outcomes with the Council decision from ME1.

Paragon: Save the Council AND destroy Sovereign with minimal losses. There's no indicator humanity is militarily weaker and nobody gives a damn you sacrificed human lives to save alien politicians. Shepard gets to see the Council and is high fived by aliens everywhere on the Citadel.

Renegade: You get to destroy Sovereign but there's no indicator humanity is any stronger from it. Shepard isn't able to see the human-led Council and aliens openly talk smack to his face.

So how would this example be corrected? Should you gain animosity from your fellow humans for sacrificing human lives to save aliens? Even if doing so got your species a spot on the Council? 

Ideally Shepard should get some flak from Alliance brass(they could have brought Rear Admiral Mikhailovich from the first game for that) and from a relative of someone lost on one of those ships who saved the Council.

For Renegades the human-led council should have obviously showed up(like how Wreav shows up instead of Wrex) and he should have gotten some praise from either them and/or Hackett.

[Seboist]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Makes sense to me, Gogeta.

I do believe you are saying it is set up something like:

Renegade: sacrifice much, achieve less.
Paragon: sacrifice nothing, achieve more.

It is clear which one is more advantageous.

Yep, let's take a look at the outcomes with the Council decision from ME1.

Paragon: Save the Council AND destroy Sovereign with minimal losses. There's no indicator humanity is militarily weaker and nobody gives a damn you sacrificed human lives to save alien politicians. Shepard gets to see the Council and is high fived by aliens everywhere on the Citadel.

Renegade: You get to destroy Sovereign but there's no indicator humanity is any stronger from it. Shepard isn't able to see the human-led Council and aliens openly talk smack to his face.

Now let's take a look at ME2's CB decision.

Paragon: Every squadmate is high fiving Shepard for destroying it including the ones who were for keeping it.

Renegade: Every squadmate scolds Shepard for being an idiot including the ones who were for keeping it.

Not to mention there's the whole Cerberus railroading with ME3....

And even then, Alliance seems weaker, they have trouble meeting hiring quotas in Mass Effect 2 (for the Renegade decision).

I believe that has to due with the Samesh Batia quest where the decision for the Alliance to keep the body doesn't import.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Nightwriter wrote...
So how would this example be corrected? Should you gain animosity from your fellow humans for sacrificing human lives to save aliens? Even if doing so got your species a spot on the Council? 

The issue is that there's never been a down side to making a Paragon choice over the Renegade one.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Seboist wrote...
I believe that has to due with the Samesh Batia quest where the decision for the Alliance to keep the body doesn't import.

Ah, I don't think they're related.

http://masseffect.wi...i/Samesh_Bhatia