380 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

And even then, Alliance seems weaker, they have trouble meeting hiring quotas in Mass Effect 2 (for the Renegade decision).

That's tied to a sidequest in ME1 IIRC. Bhatia's wife, I think?


edit: Never mind, didn't see it brought up.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 09 juin 2011 - 10:06 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

OK READ THIS CAREFULLY

Renegade interrupts have instant benefits as well, they involve shortening fights and and general making them easier/shorter. You have gotten them but most are interrupts rather than paragon dialog choices.

Paragon choices have largely been long term influencers that we have yet to see their impact. From the ones that we have seen the bulk of them have been cameos or a small discount at a store. When we have seen them they have been little emails and brief cameos.

All the major Paragon/Renegade decisions have either had a cameo impact (Wrex) story impact that had no real change to your playthrough (Council: spectre/not spectre... vitriol from a few people on the citadel) and even though you made a paragon choice some still "see it as a coup" regardless. In the latter case this was a case of the very thing you're whinging about. I made the paragon choice to make Anderson Councillor and save the Council but I'm still forced to work for Cerberus and no one trusted me because I worked with the Council. The rest of the major Paragon / Renegade choices have yet to make their impact felt.

So lets do a little exercise here renegades please list all of the paragon rewards and renegade lost rewards and document their impact on the world so far. Do that first so we can all look at the same datum, then we'll review them. Unfortunately I suspect that you've already decided that this is happening regardless of what real analysis of your complaints result in.

Sorry if this seems rude but... really, read this:

Renegades are supposed to be those who "sacrifice for the greater good."  That's exactly what Casey Hudson was talking about.  If there's no greater good for making that decision or sacrifice (compared to a choice they could have made.... like the Paragon choice), it defeats the purpose of making a tough choice.  Just pick the short-term moral "right" of the time and all will work out the best that they can.  The greatest "good" has always come from Paragon choices.

There's been nothing (in the game) demonstrated to be an advantageous outcome to making a Renegade decision compared to a Paragon one... which means the game favors Paragon choices (because they do have demonstrated advantages in-game/in-story).  Paragon favoritism... that's all I'm saying.

And these complaints are going out because I'd rather not "know" that the best outcome will result from the blue button no matter what the choice is and no matter how the odds are stacked.

The underlined sections say what the arguement is.  You mention Cerberus and interrupts which causes no different post-mission outcome and results in the same overall mission outcome.  Consequently they're irrelevant (as we're talking about advantages of the Paragon choice over the Renegade choice and vice versa), lets try to stay on topic.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 09 juin 2011 - 10:00 .

[Seboist]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Seboist wrote...
I believe that has to due with the Samesh Batia quest where the decision for the Alliance to keep the body doesn't import.

Ah, I don't think they're related.

http://masseffect.wi...i/Samesh_Bhatia

If it wasn't for the import issue it would have said, "Alliance military officials are prepared to announce new weapons
upgrades, the result of data obtained from the geth attack on Eden Prime
years ago."

http://masseffect.wi...t_2_Cut_Content

Modifié par Seboist, 09 juin 2011 - 10:56 .

[Bailyn242]

Seboist wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Makes sense to me, Gogeta.

I do believe you are saying it is set up something like:

Renegade: sacrifice much, achieve less.
Paragon: sacrifice nothing, achieve more.

It is clear which one is more advantageous.

Yep, let's take a look at the outcomes with the Council decision from ME1.

Paragon: Save the Council AND destroy Sovereign with minimal losses. There's no indicator humanity is militarily weaker and nobody gives a damn you sacrificed human lives to save alien politicians. Shepard gets to see the Council and is high fived by aliens everywhere on the Citadel.

Renegade: You get to destroy Sovereign but there's no indicator humanity is any stronger from it. Shepard isn't able to see the human-led Council and aliens openly talk smack to his face.

Now let's take a look at ME2's CB decision.

Paragon: Every squadmate is high fiving Shepard for destroying it including the ones who were for keeping it.

Renegade: Every squadmate scolds Shepard for being an idiot including the ones who were for keeping it.

Not to mention there's the whole Cerberus railroading with ME3....

Save the Council and destroy Sovereign.... let's wait and see eh? The Alliance is considerably weaker after sacrificing so much of the fleet, Hackett flat tells you that the Alliance isn't ready for the Reapers. Now if ME3 the renegade choice has more Alliance ships and more of them escape Earth to join up with the forces you're building up and Paragons are stuck with, the fleet was destroyed defending Earth then your argument won't have legs at all. Fact of the matter is we WON"T KNOW UNTIL 3-6-12.

Collector base... how can you be whining over something we have yet to find out its impact eh? Oh and what about the whole Cerberus railroading that was ME2???

Now, Mr. Gogeta, lets review what real impact any of these decisions have had in a real sense. Something which seems to elude you.

You're complaining about cameos and emails and a net 35000 credit difference at a single store. None of those choices have had a major impact on the universe by the end of ME2.

- Wrex/Wreav... not a real difference, you still help Clan Urdnot.

-Council? WTF does that give the Paragon a useless title with no real advantages one way or the other?

-Collector base? who flipping cares about the opinions of hired guns, its impact has yet to be felt.

-Geth/Heretics issue? Still don't know what the impact will be.

-Rachni Queen? No real effect on ME2, what will the impact be in ME3? Well we still don't know.

I go back and look at the paragon/renegade choices and the pros and cons have yet to be revealed. That is the point I am making. As for Casey's comment, I think you're missing what he was talking about and taking it too literally. You are fixating on "sacrifice for the greater good."  and missing the point that you have yet to really see any of this. Your argument seems to imply that Paragons aren't willing to do this...I disagree sometimes you have to make the hard choice and sometimes it will be wrong, both ways.

I argue that from what I've seen so far is that the Renegade is a get it done at all costs and Paragon as get it done within a moral construct if possible. Well, like the real world the difference in those decision trees their effects aren't readily apparent yet.

The most recent post most clearly tells me what the real issue was, you wanted useless cameos (aka more content). Seriously? I think those might have added an hour in total gameplay if I tried controlling the game with my nose. They were fun, in some cases hilarious, but the renegade choice eliminated those people.

I suppose Bioware could have rewarded renegade by posting wanted posters all over  known space. They certainly could have added a few more news stories that talked about the madman/woman you were and how such and such never recovered from it, come to think of it they do that with Terra Nova.

[Saaziel]

Saphra Deden wrote...



All I want is equal content in the game. Is that too much to ask for?

I never understood this point of view.

Either you're role playing your Mass effect character ; In which case the Meta-results shouldn't , for all intents and purposes , matter. Or you're Meta-gaming : Meaning that the Blue or Red bars hold no intrinsic value.

In other words the Paragon & Renegade issue boils down to a false dichotomy.

I don't understand the thought process that leads one to associate with symbols without first considering the relationship between innate values & expectations. Moreover it seems like a reversal of expression to become captive of a symbol.

{edit : To put this an other way,

If i felt that Soldiers were stronger than Sentinels in ME1 & ME2 , i could presume that they'll be stronger in ME3. That said , playing the favoritism card would be a complete none-sequitur since the player is the same whether he plays Soldier or Sentinel. Moreover it wouldn't make any sense to handicap myself by defining myself as exclusively Sentinel .}

Modifié par Saaziel, 09 juin 2011 - 11:40 .

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

1.) It doesn't allow for as much debate because it essentially means Paragon and Renegade exist in separate universes.

Every Shepard exists in a separate universe. Hence Shepard not even neccessarily being the same gender between playthroughs. We have different continuities based on different choices, even if so far that hasn't really meant much.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Now, Mr. Gogeta, lets review what real impact any of these decisions have had in a real sense. Something which seems to elude you.

You're complaining about cameos and emails and a net 35000 credit difference at a single store. None of those choices have had a major impact on the universe by the end of ME2.

- Wrex/Wreav... not a real difference, you still help Clan Urdnot.

-Council? WTF does that give the Paragon a useless title with no real advantages one way or the other?

-Collector base? who flipping cares about the opinions of hired guns, its impact has yet to be felt.

-Geth/Heretics issue? Still don't know what the impact will be.

-Rachni Queen? No real effect on ME2, what will the impact be in ME3? Well we still don't know.

I go back and look at the paragon/renegade choices and the pros and cons have yet to be revealed. That is the point I am making. As for Casey's comment, I think you're missing what he was talking about and taking it too literally. You are fixating on "sacrifice for the greater good."  and missing the point that you have yet to really see any of this. Your argument seems to imply that Paragons aren't willing to do this...I disagree sometimes you have to make the hard choice and sometimes it will be wrong, both ways.

I argue that from what I've seen so far is that the Renegade is a get it done at all costs and Paragon as get it done within a moral construct if possible. Well, like the real world the difference in those decision trees their effects aren't readily apparent yet.

The most recent post most clearly tells me what the real issue was, you wanted useless cameos (aka more content). Seriously? I think those might have added an hour in total gameplay if I tried controlling the game with my nose. They were fun, in some cases hilarious, but the renegade choice eliminated those people.

I suppose Bioware could have rewarded renegade by posting wanted posters all over  known space. They certainly could have added a few more news stories that talked about the madman/woman you were and how such and such never recovered from it, come to think of it they do that with Terra Nova.

How many times are you guys gonna mention ME2's Cerberus railroading... Renegades didn't ask to work with them either, lol.  That's completely irrelevant.

I'm complaining about the the fact that Paragon choices have yielded the best outcomes thusfar.  It doesn't matter how much you belittle the "extra stuff" Paragons get over Renegades or how little you value the opinion of characters you can interact with in the story.  It doesn't even matter that you feel the extra characters that appear in the Paragon playthrough (when Renegades have chars that could've equally appeared but didn't) is not a big deal.  The point is that every Paragon choice (when unique benefits and content are presented) all support the Paragon choices more than the Renegade choices.  More lives are saved and no sacrifices are required (ie, you never needed to pick another option for a better result).  And that... is Paragon favoritism.

There has not been a single distinguishable advantage over the past 2 games that you could list for the Renegade choice over a Paragon one.  But you can do that for Paragons over the Renegade choices (and do it now).  There is no "sacrificing for the greater good" because the Paragon choice has thusfar yielded the best results.  If that continues into Mass Effect 3, then the notion of having to make a real choice for the good of the galaxy will be a joke (and obviously mean you just pick the blue button... regardless of what the circumstance is or how the odds are stacked against you).

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 juin 2011 - 12:28 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Saphra Deden wrote...

That's not the same thing. If Paragon and Renegade work the way some people have suggested then the universe a Paragon exists in has different rules and values than one a Renegade exists in. Thus it's pointless to debate them. In a Paragon universe sacrifices are rarely if ever necessary and most people can be trusted. In a Renegade universe sacrifices almost always necessary and few people can be trusted.

They're not two different universes.  They're choices that yield certain results... all in the same universe.  There is no "Renegade universe."  There's just Renegade choices that provide less benefits than Paragon ones... consistently... which (for a role-player) destroys the notion of having to make a tough choice (when the blue always wins out/saves the most lives/garners the most praise/gets the most content).

It also completely destroys the notion of sacrificing for the greater good... because you don't have to sacrifice anything... once you realize that... yeah.  The results thusfar means that you only "Sacrifice" for a less good... never the greater good.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 juin 2011 - 12:32 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Saphra Deden wrote...

There is if Renegade and Paragon are actually there to craft the kind of universe you want. If you want a peaceful one where most people have no ill intentions and the ends never justify the means then you play Paragon.

If you want a darker universe where you have to make compromises with morals and be careful who you trust then you play Renegade.

I'm not saying it should be the this way, but some have said it is like this.

I view Paragon/Renegade as choices you make in how to deal with a situation.  Characters you encounter don't suddenly become good or evil just because you made a choice of how to deal with them.  That's how the game views them too.  A Paragon can change the mind of an evil person (as can Renegades), but that doesn't change the fact that they were evil regardless.

And if you view the Paragon and Renegade choices the way you're suggesting, then it's no longer about making a role-playing choice... and certainly not sacrificing for the greater good... which goes against Bioware's stated intentions.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 juin 2011 - 12:42 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I see, but the thing that hurts that approach is if a player is trying to make a tough choice in the game. If that player knows that the Paragon choice will be the classical/somewhat cliche heroic space opera ending where things work out the best way possible, then making decisions is no longer anywhere near as compelling as having to make a choice you're uncertain of.

It basically removes the point of even saying what choices you made or why you made them because the game doesn't honor that kind of playing mentality.  If it's a "blue always wins out" game, then the only reason to pick something else is if you want to see a worse ending... and even then the question is not about a critical moment's choice, but about what ending you want.  That'd be pretty unfortunate.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 juin 2011 - 12:48 .

[Saaziel]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

which (for a role-player) destroys the notion of having to make a tough choice (when the blue always wins out/saves the most lives/garners the most praise/gets the most content).

It also completely destroys the notion of sacrificing for the greater good... because you don't have to sacrifice anything... once you realize that... yeah.

How so?

Assuming you're role playing , Sheppard has no idea that -this action- isn't a tough decision. Moreover this particular Sheppard might have different priorities than simply min/max praise and lives. My Cyborg-Sheppard ,for example ,suffers from cyber-psychosis (A nostalgia thing from my Cyber punk 2020 days) triggered by the implants he got from the Lazarus project. Praises and saving lives aren't even on the list.

Frankly i think some are obsessed with an "either/or quasy-meta-gaming" duality , that's presented as a Role-playing issue when its not. If you're role playing then none of the alternative possibilities ought to matter , and if you're meta gaming then the "Blue or Red" issue is irrelevant.

Seems like a lose/lose situation for those crying foul.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I'm saying that before diving into the game, if you know that the game will work out the best if you always hit the blue button... it deflates the entire notion of making a role-playing choice.

You can still do it (try to role-play), but you know that anything less than blue will never be the best option. It's like watching a mystery you know the ending of. You may still be able to enjoy the movie... but it's a big spoiler.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 juin 2011 - 01:02 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

That's why I'm happy to hear Casey say what he said... and I hope I interpreted his meaning correctly and they make choices other than Paragon ones a choice worth thinking about.

[Saaziel]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

I'm saying that before diving into the game, if you know that the game will work out the best if you always hit the blue button... it deflates the entire notion of making a role-playing choice.

How does it matter from a role playing perspective ... You are aware that Role-playing isn't innately related to "Blue" or "Red" (Or Paragon & Renegade for that matter) ,are you not?

And lets assume that sometimes "Red" would be a better choice ; Wouldn't you be right here complaining just as bad about "Paragade & Renegon favouritism " ?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Saaziel wrote...
How does it matter from a role playing perspective ... You are aware that Role-playing isn't innately related to "Blue" or "Red" (Or Paragon & Renegade for that matter) ,are you not?

And lets assume that sometimes "Red" would be a better choice ; Wouldn't you be right here complaining just as bad about "Paragade & Renegon favouritism " ?

Hard to play favorites when those are the options you have.  Equal is equal... choose wisely, sometimes red, sometimes blue.  When it's like that, Now you can roleplay and get a full experience without having a "best result" button.  You have to actually make a choice you're unsure of.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 juin 2011 - 01:09 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I look forward to seeing how Bioware "ofuscates ultimately what is right and what is wrong."

The quoted part is Casey Hudson regarding what they plan to do for Mass Effect 3 (concerning Paragon/Renegade choices).

Because of that quote I feel a lot better about this.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 juin 2011 - 01:12 .

[Saaziel]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Saaziel wrote...
How does it matter from a role playing perspective ... You are aware that Role-playing isn't innately related to "Blue" or "Red" (Or Paragon & Renegade for that matter) ,are you not?

And lets assume that sometimes "Red" would be a better choice ; Wouldn't you be right here complaining just as bad about "Paragade & Renegon favouritism " ?

Hard to play favorites when those are the options you have.  Equal is equal... choose wisely, sometimes red, sometimes blue.  When it's like that, Now you can roleplay and get a full experience without having a "best result" button.  You have to actually make a choice you're unsure of.

What?

Role playing is more then chose "A" or "B" ; The actual content of what is said and done, how it and the consequences relates to your character matters more than a few points in this or that.

Modifié par Saaziel, 10 juin 2011 - 01:18 .

[Labrev]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

There's been nothing (in the game) demonstrated to be an advantageous outcome to making a Renegade decision compared to a Paragon one... which means the game favors Paragon choices (because they do have demonstrated advantages in-game/in-story).  Paragon favoritism... that's all I'm saying.

Risk-reward. Very simple reality.

Renegade choices are typically playing it "safe" and low-risk. Rachni queen promises to stay civil. You do not trust her, so you kill it. You accept, then, that the queen dies even if possibly telling the truth. Whatever good may come out of that, you're not going to see it because letting it go is too risky (or, [insert logic here]).

So when you don't take a risk, then don't expect reward. Because usually, you accept not getting any. Sorry, it comes back to the same thing: grow a pair and stand behind what you choose.

This is not to mention that there still is nothing that has established Renegade decisions being less advantageous ones.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 10 juin 2011 - 02:43 .

[Labrev]

Seboist wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Makes sense to me, Gogeta.

I do believe you are saying it is set up something like:

Renegade: sacrifice much, achieve less.
Paragon: sacrifice nothing, achieve more.

It is clear which one is more advantageous.

Yep, let's take a look at the outcomes with the Council decision from ME1.

Paragon: Save the Council AND destroy Sovereign with minimal losses. There's no indicator humanity is militarily weaker and nobody gives a damn you sacrificed human lives to save alien politicians. Shepard gets to see the Council and is high fived by aliens everywhere on the Citadel.

Renegade: You get to destroy Sovereign but there's no indicator humanity is any stronger from it. Shepard isn't able to see the human-led Council and aliens openly talk smack to his face.

Now let's take a look at ME2's CB decision.

Paragon: Every squadmate is high fiving Shepard for destroying it including the ones who were for keeping it.

Renegade: Every squadmate scolds Shepard for being an idiot including the ones who were for keeping it.

Not to mention there's the whole Cerberus railroading with ME3....

Sorry man, I'll give you the Collector Base thing but the Council is a bit exaggerated.

Alliance military did take heavy losses. Ask TIM why the Alliance isn't dealing with Collector attacks in the very beginning: "The Alliance is stretched thin after taking losses against Sovereign." So yeah, they are likely not in any better shape than the rest of the Citadel fleet.

Khalisa is a pissed that you sacrificed human lives to save the Council. Granted, she also criticizes you for not saving them, but we saw in ME1 that she is clearly an earth-first type so I'm inclined to think that the former is genuine. I think she'd probably also be an accurate reflection of the general sentiments back on Earth.

The blowback as far as alien hostility from the whole game is 3 aliens. 3. The turian in that one store (he's actually a bigot anyway, he just respects you for saving the Council but still is very arrogant toward humans). And those two asari are not complaining any less if you saved the council. Really not bad considering they lost complete control of their government to a new-comer race.

On the flip-side, if you see the old council and refuse their reinstatement offer, they threaten to take action against you. They probably won't, but at least with the new council you can refuse your reinstatement from Anderson without getting on their bad side, or not get it at all but not be a concern of theirs either. As for the reinstatement itself, it didn't make a lick of difference on the game. It changed some dialogue, but that's it.


So nope, up to now, the difference between them has been nil. Even the Collector Base remains to be seen.

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

I'm saying that before diving into the game, if you know that the game will work out the best if you always hit the blue button... it deflates the entire notion of making a role-playing choice.

You can still do it (try to role-play), but you know that anything less than blue will never be the best option. It's like watching a mystery you know the ending of. You may still be able to enjoy the movie... but it's a big spoiler.

What you are saying is that if you use spoilers you will always be able to get the best result. How is that different from any game ever made?