380 réponses à ce sujet

[Bailyn242]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I would say that a Paragon character always being right kind of hinders any real character development.

Yet there is very little proof of your claims other than pure fluff, eye candy. Few if any of the real "Make a Sacrifice" choices have been resolved. It is that simple and the primary reason I've been trying to point it out now for how many posts in this thread so far?

Almost all of the references made in this thread by renegades are minor, emails, and cameos. Thats all we've seen so far. Other than that there has been several attempts to predict the future as if they have any real evidence that the Collector Base is going to hurt/harm renegades and not paragons. Too bad that there are several Paragons that kept that base. Heck, from what reveals we've seen so far the "paragon" choice of rewriting the Geth is going to bite us in the ass, but you're just so put upon.

THAT is the point, every major ME1 decision has yet to be resolved aside from Wrex, and none of the major decisions from ME2 have been resolved yet. Another paragon choice that is probably gonna burn us, or at least make things more difficult, was Daro'Xen and the data from the Alarei. If you gave her the data or told her the truth about the experiments who knows what counter for the Geth she might have come up with now? But if you didn't share the info with her she's gonna be against us.

[squee913]

What I don't understand is the OP keeps saying the "BEST" outcome. Sighting that more lives are saved to accomplish the same goal, or that less aliens are shouting in your face, or Shep is more liked. Problem is, I'm not sure a true renegade would care about that. So few people died, the job got finished. So what if the aliens hate you, Human's dominate the council. Sure a few innocents died, but I killed the terrorist ha might have killed many many more. If the loss of innocents and lack of friends bugs you so much, maybe you are playing the wrong side of the system.

[Moiaussi]

wiggles89 wrote...

In Zaheed's mission, the merc/pirate leader Zaheed was after still gets away with the paragon option though, and that is more likely to end up a negative than saving the workers is.

Not really. If you kill Vido, the more likely outcome is that he's replaced by someone equally as, if not more, ruthless.

If there is someone equally competent and more ruthless, why hasn't Vido been already replaced?

[Moiaussi]

wiggles89 wrote...

Do you understand how criminal empires work?

All the lower level grunts are the most competent and ruthless but inexplicably do the work for the less competent, less ruthless because.... ?

Do you know how criminal empires work? On what are you basing your opinion?

[Moiaussi]

wiggles89 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

Do you understand how criminal empires work?

All the lower level grunts are the most competent and ruthless but inexplicably do the work for the less competent, less ruthless because.... ?

How messy did your keyboard get constructing that strawman?

Translation: You have no clue and rather than point out whatever flaw you claim exists in my question, you simply call it a straw man with no backup for your saying so. Now, are you going to defend your words or just posture some more?

[jamesp81]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Makes sense to me, Gogeta.

I do believe you are saying it is set up something like:

Renegade: sacrifice much, achieve less.
Paragon: sacrifice nothing, achieve more.

It is clear which one is more advantageous.

Yep, let's take a look at the outcomes with the Council decision from ME1.

Paragon: Save the Council AND destroy Sovereign with minimal losses. There's no indicator humanity is militarily weaker and nobody gives a damn you sacrificed human lives to save alien politicians. Shepard gets to see the Council and is high fived by aliens everywhere on the Citadel.

Renegade: You get to destroy Sovereign but there's no indicator humanity is any stronger from it. Shepard isn't able to see the human-led Council and aliens openly talk smack to his face.

Now let's take a look at ME2's CB decision.

Paragon: Every squadmate is high fiving Shepard for destroying it including the ones who were for keeping it.

Renegade: Every squadmate scolds Shepard for being an idiot including the ones who were for keeping it.

Not to mention there's the whole Cerberus railroading with ME3....

And even then, Alliance seems weaker, they have trouble meeting hiring quotas in Mass Effect 2 (for the Renegade decision).

I always got that recruiting quota news report in all my playthroughs, no matter what I chose in ME1.  That seems to be the same regardless.

[jamesp81]

Saphra Deden wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Renegades want a darker, grittier, unhappy, stereotypical grimdark story and the renegade path gives them the opportunity to play it that way.  Paragons want a more stereotypical heroic path and story, and paragon decisions let us experience the game that way.

I can accept this as being the way Bioware approaches Paragon and Renegade and ultimately I'm okay with it. However there are two problems with it:

1.) It doesn't allow for as much debate because it essentially means Paragon and Renegade exist in separate universes.

2.) The Paragon/Renegade system was never advertised this way and still isn't.


At the end of the day I don't care if Paragons are "punished" or not, I don't care if my Renegade is hated or not, but I do care about is a lack of content. My choices matter much less than a Paragon because when I import them all too often there is no impact on the game. My Renegade import to ME2 is in many cases identical to a vanilla ME2 with no import. That is a very bad thing.

All I want is equal content in the game. Is that too much to ask for?


EDIT

From the other thread...

Saphra Deden wrote...

There is no dilemma! There can be a bad consequence for SHEPARD that still provides additional content for the PLAYER!

The problem with Renegade choices is that when you import them you often wind up with nothing.
It isn't a disaster, it isn't a success. Just nothing happens. This
spoils the point of importing in the first place. Like I just said.

Now for story reasons Paragon decisions always having positive effects for Shepard is annoying, yeah, but it is much less of an issue than the LACK OF CONTENT.

If,
say, freeing the rachni queen had caused them to attack in ME2, forcing
you to do a mission where you fight rachni, that would be a bad thing
for Shepard, the character. However the player would
benefit with an additional mission to play, meaning more experience
points and maybe an additional upgrade. You can reward the player no
matter how their decision affects the game world.

I have to be honest....I often wonder if the devs really knew where they'd go with paragon vs renegade.  In some decisions, it seems to be one thing, but in others, it seems to be something else entirely.  Some renegade choices are "let's get this done, now" while others seem to be "set Douche-o-meter to 11 for the lulz".

To be fair, the paragon vs renegade decisions don't seem to me to effect very much in ME2, either way.  I suspect the goal was to make that stuff have more significant effects in ME3.  JMO, and worth exactly what you paid for it.

[Bailyn242]

Who's to say that Killing Vido wouldn't have put a loyal Zheed in charge of the Blue Suns and preparing to fight what he now knows is coming? Maybe that's his side mission if he makes an appearance.

Even in that paragon/renegade example it still really hasn't been resolved one way or the other.

[Moiaussi]

wiggles89 wrote...

So you actually need me to spell out how you completely strawmanned by argument? You need me to point out that it's manifest to anyone that my argument has nothing to do with a "lower level grunt" assuming Vido's position?

If a lieutenant is competent and more ruthless, why are they just a lieutenant? Why would they be accepting a lesser cut if they have the skill and guts to take over? Stop posturing and present an actual arguement.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
Risk-reward. Very simple reality.

Renegade choices are typically playing it "safe" and low-risk. Rachni queen promises to stay civil. You do not trust her, so you kill it. You accept, then, that the queen dies even if possibly telling the truth. Whatever good may come out of that, you're not going to see it because letting it go is too risky (or, [insert logic here]).

So when you don't take a risk, then don't expect reward. Because usually, you accept not getting any. Sorry, it comes back to the same thing: grow a pair and stand behind what you choose.

This is not to mention that there still is nothing that has established Renegade decisions being less advantageous ones.

So in other words, you are saying that the Paragon choices are the ones with the rewards while Renegade choices don't have them because it's a "safe/logical" decision?  Paragon favoritism. 

And there's a difference between "having a pair" and having the game make one button always provide the best outcome.

Think about it.

Moiaussi wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

I'm saying that before diving into the game, if you know that the game will work out the best if you always hit the blue button... it deflates the entire notion of making a role-playing choice.

You can still do it (try to role-play), but you know that anything less than blue will never be the best option. It's like watching a mystery you know the ending of. You may still be able to enjoy the movie... but it's a big spoiler.

What you are saying is that if you use spoilers you will always be able to get the best result. How is that different from any game ever made?

So you're acknowledging the spoiler of Paragon favoritism?  Because past that point, you're right, there is no difference... but when it's there... it is there.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 juin 2011 - 04:22 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

For those who wanted to know:

"Obfuscate" means "To Render obscure, unclear, or unintelligible."
____________________________________________________________________

With that in mind, I'll post Casey Hudson's quote once more:

"It does get into grey areas and more and more we want to try and obfuscate ultimately what is right or wrong because ultimately Paragon and Renegade is not meant to be 'Good' and 'Evil.' It's a little bit different where it's a question of 'do you sacrifice anything for the greater good' or are you unwilling to make certain sacrifices just to justify the end." - Casey Hudson


The second half of the quote still sounds like it favors the Paragon choices though... so we'll have to see.  But the first half does make a strong case for Paragon favoritism not always being the case in Mass Effect 3 (instead of like it was in the first 2 games).

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 juin 2011 - 04:30 .

[Plutonium95]

The paragon choice does not always led to the best outcome. For example, in the bring down the sky DLC for ME1 you can let Balak, who was going to kill millions of people, go in order to save a few hostages or kill him and let the hostages die. Really the paragon choice isn't always the best outcome it just shows the Shepard refuses to abandon his morals no matter the cost.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Plutonium95 wrote...

The paragon choice does not always led to the best outcome. For example, in the bring down the sky DLC for ME1 you can let Balak, who was going to kill millions of people, go in order to save a few hostages or kill him and let the hostages die. Really the paragon choice isn't always the best outcome it just shows the Shepard refuses to abandon his morals no matter the cost.

What were the outcomes of the two choices?

[Plutonium95]

If Balak is killed then the hostages, of which there were few, die. If the hostages are saved then he escapes presumably to continue with his anti human terrorism although I don't believe that it has actually been addressed.

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

So you're acknowledging the spoiler of Paragon favoritism?  Because past that point, you're right, there is no difference... but when it's there... it is there.

No, I am saying that if choices matter, there will always be a best set of choices. If you know that best set of choices via spoilers, you will always be able to get that best result. If you don't know, you don't know.

All we know for certain at the momment is the ME1 results. If you think paragon is always the best, then maybe paragon is best for you, but that doesn't mean paragon ME2 decisions will turn out best, and it doesn't mean paragon ME3 decisions will turn out best.

It doesn't even mean paragon ME1 decisions are best for everyone, just that with your personal preferences, you consider them such. Regardless, you don't know in advance without spoilers.

[CroGamer002]

squee913 wrote...

What I don't understand is the OP keeps saying the "BEST" outcome. Sighting that more lives are saved to accomplish the same goal, or that less aliens are shouting in your face, or Shep is more liked. Problem is, I'm not sure a true renegade would care about that. So few people died, the job got finished. So what if the aliens hate you, Human's dominate the council. Sure a few innocents died, but I killed the terrorist ha might have killed many many more. If the loss of innocents and lack of friends bugs you so much, maybe you are playing the wrong side of the system.

THIS!

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Mesina2 wrote...

squee913 wrote...

What I don't understand is the OP keeps saying the "BEST" outcome. Sighting that more lives are saved to accomplish the same goal, or that less aliens are shouting in your face, or Shep is more liked. Problem is, I'm not sure a true renegade would care about that. So few people died, the job got finished. So what if the aliens hate you, Human's dominate the council. Sure a few innocents died, but I killed the terrorist ha might have killed many many more. If the loss of innocents and lack of friends bugs you so much, maybe you are playing the wrong side of the system.

THIS!

I'm sorry to say this but that missed the point entirely:

The job gets finished regardless of the red/blue choice you make.

Humans do not dominate the Council (Anderson always complains that his voice is never heard).

Paragons (from what's been said so far) have heard nothing about that terrorist committing atrocities ever again.

Loss of innocents by itself is fine.  Lack of friends isn't an issue, you can gain a number of friends as a Renegade.

The problem is still that for a player whose goal is to make the best overall decision (ie. the one offering the most positive stuff), the Renegade option has NEVER been the best option across ME1 and ME2 based on what's been presented thusfar in the games.  That's the issue in question.  Paragon choice (each and every time) has been the one with the most exclusive benefits. 

That's not a sign to change to the pure Paragon side, it's a sign to request that the game allows for choices worth thinking about again.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 juin 2011 - 05:46 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

No, I am saying that if choices matter, there will always be a best set of choices. If you know that best set of choices via spoilers, you will always be able to get that best result. If you don't know, you don't know.

All we know for certain at the momment is the ME1 results. If you think paragon is always the best, then maybe paragon is best for you, but that doesn't mean paragon ME2 decisions will turn out best, and it doesn't mean paragon ME3 decisions will turn out best.

It doesn't even mean paragon ME1 decisions are best for everyone, just that with your personal preferences, you consider them such. Regardless, you don't know in advance without spoilers.

We have all of ME1 and all of ME2 + their epilogues to go off of at this point.  Of that, the Paragon choices have been the most favored choices.  Of course there's going to be a "best set" of choices... but it's favoritism when it all comes down to one button every time (regardless of the issue, circumstance, or options available).

If they maintain the design philosophy of the first 2 games (which Casey's quote suggests otherwise), then the Paragon choice would be the "best" for everyone if their goal is to have the most successful outcome possible.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

jamesp81 wrote...

I always got that recruiting quota news report in all my playthroughs, no matter what I chose in ME1.  That seems to be the same regardless.

Cool, but for the "Renegade's increased human strength" arguement, it's still a point of contention.

Saphra Deden wrote...

I can't wait for ME3 to come out just so we can have these threads and people will stop saying "wait for ME3!"

Same here, though given Casey's quote... it sounds like they may try and justify choices outside of Paragon for a change...

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 juin 2011 - 06:09 .