380 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

thurmanator692 wrote...

It also further divides the galaxy before an oncoming reaper invasion

From a meta-persective it's good as that means the Turians will be building more ships.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

"I'll stop the Reapers, but I won't sacrifice the soul of our species to do it... Remember that."

Something you can tell TIM if you keep the base.

  As though Shepard is somehow in control/possession of the soul of the entire human race.  I wish there was the option to pretty much say "hell yeah, lets go kick some reaper ass" to the TIM after keeping the base.  Instead, its just crap about the soul of humanity or telling TIM to shut up.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not surprised that TIM would throw Shepard under the bus (though I am curious as to why in the hell he'd be helping the reapers), but the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

lol Paragons can say something to that affect too when destroying the base.  But the quote serves its purpose.. and was definitely a threat to TIM.

And this is Commander Shepard, he can do a lot.

[Seboist]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

"I'll stop the Reapers, but I won't sacrifice the soul of our species to do it... Remember that."

Something you can tell TIM if you keep the base.

  As though Shepard is somehow in control/possession of the soul of the entire human race.  I wish there was the option to pretty much say "hell yeah, lets go kick some reaper ass" to the TIM after keeping the base.  Instead, its just crap about the soul of humanity or telling TIM to shut up.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not surprised that TIM would throw Shepard under the bus (though I am curious as to why in the hell he'd be helping the reapers), but the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Shepard says some really stupid **** on occasion and that's one of the worst ones.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

thurmanator692 wrote...

It also further divides the galaxy before an oncoming reaper invasion

Tragedy usually brings a community closer together...

And it's easy to forget, but if Shepard and the Arcturus Fleet hadn't arrived, the Citadel would've fallen.  No sequel thanks for any of that?

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 juin 2011 - 04:33 .

[Rip504]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Lol did I hurt your feelings? I see no reason to quote you when I make a reference to your post. Don't take it as a direct insult.
Really Mr Gogeta 34. Listen to what you are saying.
Bioware wrote a story where the Paragon hero will risk the life of every sentient being in the entire galaxy,for the sake of three individuals.That would make Bioware horrible story tellers,and on top of that it makes little to no sense. I highly doubt this is the way Bioware intended their story to be interpreted.

(Be prepared. I am going to repeat a couple of things.)

All your caps Prove nothing. Renegade Shepard proved it for me. Shepard took out the council to gain human dominance.(Not directly quoted.) This is a renegade dialog choice.

Saren was dead.  Sovereign was next. Paragons DID NOT RISK THE SAFETY OF THE GALAXY. That is absurd. Yes the Paragon didn't concentrate all forces at once to destroy Sovereign And only lost 8 ships while saving the DA.Wow 8 ships can really turn the tide of the battle. I doubt it  (They can deff help though.) I felt fully confident that I could save the DA and Kill the Reaper. Guess what? I did.!. It was implied that the cost was human life,not the safety of the galaxy.I took that risk and was correct. (Even if I misunderstood the meaning,I still felt that human lives & the council were the only things at risk. I was Correct.) ME2 confirms it. No one cares why you did it,they only care if you saved the council or not.
 
 Both playthroughs have either some dead humans or a dead council. Either way the galaxy is safe. The safety of the galaxy is taking the situation out of context as it was never truly at risk in the end of the game. I assume that this was never the way Bioware intended to have it imported. The galaxy will always end up safe. So Bioware Imported the choice if you were willing to sacrifice the humans or  the council etc.

Where in ME2 does it mention Shepard chose to save the galaxy by killing the council? Where in ME2 does it say Shepard ignorantly risked the life of every sentient being for 3 individuals?  (PS:That would be just plain bad writing on Bioware's part.I doubt they intended it this way.)Or does ME2 make a reference to the Council and the 8 humans ships that were lost? That was the choice that mattered to team Bioware., Why? Because the safety of the galaxy was never at risk. Shepard wins no matter what. We Do Know this. (Also in ME1 it takes 1 save,2 loads,and 15 mins of gameplay to find out.)

Where do you get "It's like saying the Paragon reasoning for saving the Council is because
Shepard saw the Council as his eternal master and galactic life was not
worth living if those 3 people died. " Really?  That is just a lie and completely wrong and sort of ignorant.
Jesus I even said in one of the post it was the first step to a united galaxy & peaceful relations. It is also the first sign of humanity stepping up and proving it can help protect the galaxy,and isn't scared to lose human life for the sake of aliens. Hopefully aliens will now feel the same for us. "Renegade also saved the ENTIRE galaxy",yea but only because humanity lives in this galaxy.This could be an alien PoV. Considering. A united galaxy is the point of ME3,I just happend to start working on it in ME1. Wow what a shock. It must mean I consider them more important then every other being in the galaxy. Listen to what you are saying. It makes no sense. I'm uniting the galaxy to help save it. The plot of ME3 no?

Please do not get upset because we disagree. Yes I look at it from a metagaming view, now that I have my hands on both games and can easily replay any content that I want to change. That is part of playing video games. Replaying to change things to the way you see fit has been a part of gaming,since Mario and earlier. It falls under "replay value". You are quoteing Casey Hudson for your benefit,and then turning around and calling him an idiot for the ending of ME1. Paragons would not sake the life of every being in the galaxy for 3 individuals,no matter how important they are. That is just a stupid plot device and makes no sense.!. And if that is the way the story is ment,then maybe I just changed my opinion.

Modifié par Rip504, 12 juin 2011 - 07:23 .

[tjzsf]

Bailyn242 wrote...

tjzsf wrote...
If I wish to "win" the arugment based on what I myself am arguing, I don't have to show anything about
the end results, all I have to show is that the argument for making the
paragon choice is better than the renegade one. Are *you* ready?

Major Story changing decisions? Council, Wrex, Anderson/Udina, BDts are the major story decisions from ME1. You get Wreav if Wrex dies (not a major difference yet), the Council has so far been a minor scene in ME2 and the paragon option might leave the fleets weaker since the renegade option has the Turians breaking treaty and building additional Dreadnaughts beyond treaty limits. Anderson is no longer the Councillor if they stick to Retribution as canon (read wasted decision, you still end up with Udina.) Now BDtS, you choose one way and Kate Bowman sends an email and she speaks at a memorial you hear about on the news, the other way no email (she is dead) and you hear about her father leading the same memorial on the news (difference a single email, non story critical fluff.) ME2's choices cannot be verified what effect they will carry into the next game until it comes out.

So again, what I've been reading so far amounts to I killed someone so they can't send me an email or waste my time with minor fluff. Hey, you gots more than I did.

Now, were's the consequence for being a dick and killing indiscriminately if every time you do this the dev simply give you a different cameo. Of all the ones Dean suggested (I didn't disagree with all of them,) the Lorik Quin for Gianna Parasini one would have made sense and wouldn't have removed consequence. That is the critical factor. As frustrated as you are I would find the game childish and immature if there was no consequences for indiscriminate killing.

Now, go back and review all the suggestions you have for renegade replacements for cameos or emails that the paragon got and determine if giving the renegade something in each case would have destroyed the consequence element of the original decision. Then ask if there was enough additional important information given to paragons to offset the loss of the consequence of the renegade option?

Now before you get your undergarments in a knot, I'll admit that there could have been some negatives to a couple of paragon choices but there weren't many. I suppose that Helena Blake could actually be a criminal after all, rather than a reformed social worker on Omega, but for that matter she could still be lying in ME2.

Of course there was a Paragon action that burns us in ME1 but I have yet to see it mentioned in here, Nassana Dantius tricks paragon Shepard into killing her sister and helping her cover her own criminal liability. That one I wanted to go back slap her in irons and drop her off in Palin's office just down the hall.

Another Paragon action from ME1 that backfires (sort of) is Coombs, he flat tells Paragon Shep he's gunning for him in (again) an email.

Rachni Queen? Well, she's dead and no one outside of your crew and the Council even know that you found her and killed her so how is someone going to thank you for it unless you announce to the galaxy at large that there may be more eggs floating in space in derelict ships.

So show me where you could insert the Renegade cameo without removing the sense of consequence for your choices? Face it the devs made some darnn good choices and the only change I can see that would work and was proposed by Dean was Lorik Quin. One mistake from the mass of choices is a pretty good hit rate.

Paragons still got screwed with the entire forced ME2 plot. From what I've read from Renegades, most of you loved that, TIM is mastermind, TIM is humanity and so am I. You guys got rewarded big time there. The rest of us had to suck it up and play while feeling disgusted with the whole situation.

It seems that you're replying to something that's not what I wrote.

Others have plenty of alternate suggestions for cameos that do not reduce consequence. You may belittle the cameos/emails/whatnot how you like for being "unimportant" or whatever, but do not expect others to place the same weight on those aspects of the game as you do. +1 unimportant thing is still > 0 things.

And this renegade also disliked the "work with Cerberus" angle. My RenShep should have murdered Miranda and Jacob, stolen the shuttle, and reported back for duty with the Alliance/Council.

The Paragon options you list that "backfire" there irrespective of Paragon or Renegade playstyle. Toombs still ****es at you

My complaint with the rachni queen is simply that there's no really a good reason behind killing her off. She is an organic, Reapers are against all organics, so it is in her best interest to fight the Reapers with you. Killing her off eliminates an ally, keeping her around means that if you can win against the Reapers, then you might have to kill her off again if she turns out to be a nuisance - but it's not the same as restarting the rachni wars because there's only one queen.

There should be consequences for indiscriminate killing. But that means the devs should make the killings more discriminate.

There should also be consequences for being too idealistic/trusting. So far you only see that with Elnora.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

lol I'm not upset or hurt, I'm just scolding you .  Don't get an "I'm against you" vibe... because that's not it either. 


You may be new to discussing things in forums or don't notice what fellow forumers have been doing when they converse with folks, but no one particularly enjoys reading a wall of text..


Quoting points of mine that you're responding to is forum etiquette... and why the function is there... it organizes your wall of text into sections worth looking at.  Seeing a wall of text makes me want to just skim.

If you want me to address specific points, try to be more concise in your posts.

Now one point you're going on about is that the Renegade choice regarding the Council is that Shepard wanted the Council dead.  It was an opportunity to remove them (which influenced the chioce), but that's still in the face of galactic extinction.  Not sure if you've seen Batman Begins, but in the end, Batman said "I won't kill you... but I don't have to save you."  Same situation here.

Then there's the "Concentrate on Sovereign" option where it's still Sacrificing for the Greater good but in that case there's no ill will toward the Council... they just die.

Regardless, the Galaxy is unaware of Shepard's intentions and the fact remains that they focused on sovereign and sacrificed the Council.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 juin 2011 - 08:35 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

thurmanator692 wrote...

@Mr. Gotega, can't tell if you're kidding, but I don't think the other races would see humans standing by as their leaders get spaced as a unifying tragedy. That and it's hard to see the sunny side behind all the bodies you could have saved. I saved the council because, as far as Shepard knew, the citadel was saved already. Swooping in to save the Council would get humanity the respect and possibly the power they needed, without shattering the already faulty galactic stability

I was partially kidding. 

But the point is that the Citadel fleet is decimated and were on the verge of total annihilation.  Had Shepard and the Arcturus Fleet not have arrived, the Citadel would've been taken and all galactic life would've been lost.  We only know the Council (yet alone all life in the galaxy) could've been saved after seeing the Paragon result.  But saving the Citadel from complete takeover should've carried just as much weight as a heroic action considering that no one else should have any idea of the alternative in-game.

It was because of Humanity that the Battle of the Citadel was won.

And personally, I concentrated on Sovereign because I still viewed the Reapers as a huge threat.  Sovereign is not only sentient, but has algorithms etc. millions of years more advanced than what we have and overriding Vigil could've happened at any time.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 juin 2011 - 08:29 .

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

I was partially kidding. 

But the point is that the Citadel fleet is decimated and were on the verge of total annihilation.  Had Shepard and the Arcturus Fleet not have arrived, the Citadel would've been taken and all galactic life would've been lost.  We only know the Council (yet alone all life in the galaxy) could've been saved after seeing the Paragon result.  But saving the Citadel from complete takeover should've carried just as much weight as a heroic action considering that no one else should have any idea of the alternative in-game.

It was because of Humanity that the Battle of the Citadel was won.

And personally, I concentrated on Sovereign because I still viewed the Reapers as a huge threat.  Sovereign is not only sentient, but has algorithms etc. millions of years more advanced than what we have and overriding Vigil could've happened at any time.

Keep in mind that given neither Council believes in the Reapers as of ME2, neither believes there was any imminent threat of invasion either, since they don't believe there was any Reapers let along Reaper fleet.

We know that there was, and the Alliance seems to accept that there was, but the Council doesn't seem to. Thus to them, the Geth fleet was the primary threat and to them it would seem that holding back until after the DA is downed was likely just to eliminate the Council.

[Rip504]

Also let's not forget the fact that we lose 8 human vessels. But we gain the DA. That has a crew of over 10,000 and is one of the biggest ships in the galaxy. So I say it is safe to assume it has decent weapons . It was caught off-guard in a surprise attack by the Geth and Sovereign. Any ship can be in danger of being destroyed in this situation. Also Admiral Hackett states the DA was part of the battle,suggesting it helped. Ashley talks about the size and power of DA's guns.

So in my opinion both Paragon and Renegade have around the same amount of fire power,even if the Renegade has slightly more. I don't think it is enough to simple say I let the DA and 10,000 sentient beings die, to ensure victory over Sovereign. As the DA is also a powerful ship. Using all your forces on the Reaper seems like a convenient excuse.
 
I think the real choice here is are you willing to sacrifice humans for aliens or are you willing to let aliens die to save humans. As ME1 has a little bit more to do with Alien/Human Relations. First Human Spectre. Cerberus is anti-alien hate group.etc.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

I was partially kidding. 

But the point is that the Citadel fleet is decimated and were on the verge of total annihilation.  Had Shepard and the Arcturus Fleet not have arrived, the Citadel would've been taken and all galactic life would've been lost.  We only know the Council (yet alone all life in the galaxy) could've been saved after seeing the Paragon result.  But saving the Citadel from complete takeover should've carried just as much weight as a heroic action considering that no one else should have any idea of the alternative in-game.

It was because of Humanity that the Battle of the Citadel was won.

And personally, I concentrated on Sovereign because I still viewed the Reapers as a huge threat.  Sovereign is not only sentient, but has algorithms etc. millions of years more advanced than what we have and overriding Vigil could've happened at any time.

Keep in mind that given neither Council believes in the Reapers as of ME2, neither believes there was any imminent threat of invasion either, since they don't believe there was any Reapers let along Reaper fleet.

We know that there was, and the Alliance seems to accept that there was, but the Council doesn't seem to. Thus to them, the Geth fleet was the primary threat and to them it would seem that holding back until after the DA is downed was likely just to eliminate the Council.

And you're saying that's not a Paragon benefit over the Renegade choice? 

They didn't 'hold back until after DA was downed.'  They held on heading toward the council and made a B-line straight for Sovereign.  They focused on Sovereign immediately (ie, they were moving, they weren't holding their position, just their formation while advancing).

What I don't personally understand (outside of Paragon Favoritism) is why it was even necessary to open up the relays for joker to 'send the calvary in' when in the cutscene where the Council is sacrificed, they're right there regardless (Especially considering that at the beginning/before the choice, we clearly see the DA moving away from the Citadel arms at a great distance).  This fact alone makes Paragon favoritism hard to ignore.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Rip504 wrote...

Also let's not forget the fact that we lose 8 human vessels. But we gain the DA. That has a crew of over 10,000 and is one of the biggest ships in the galaxy. So I say it is safe to assume it has decent weapons . It was caught off-guard in a surprise attack by the Geth and Sovereign. Any ship can be in danger of being destroyed in this situation. Also Admiral Hackett states the DA was part of the battle,suggesting it helped. Ashley talks about the size and power of DA's guns.

So in my opinion both Paragon and Renegade have around the same amount of fire power,even if the Renegade has slightly more. I don't think it is enough to simple say I let the DA and 10,000 sentient beings die, to ensure victory over Sovereign. As the DA is also a powerful ship. Using all your forces on the Reaper seems like a convenient excuse.
 
I think the real choice here is are you willing to sacrifice humans for aliens or are you willing to let aliens die to save humans. As ME1 has a little bit more to do with Alien/Human Relations. First Human Spectre. Cerberus is anti-alien hate group.etc.

The ship was out of commission, that's why it needed help.  Victory in an effort to even save the DA is unclear... yet alone having enough forces for Sovereign.

The real choice was never humanity for aliens.  "This is bigger than Humanity, Sovereign is a threat to every species in the galaxy."  That quote is something aliens tell you (if they're there to say it).  Humanity vs Aliens is a narrow-minded view and a pure Renegade can have such a view factor into his decision... but it's still in the face of galactic extinction.

Another common trend of the Paragon choice is to completely disregard the threat a Reaper poses... assuming there's always time to do everything else first. 

"We need to save the Ascension, no matter what the cost" is what Paragon Shepard says... which means "even if it costs us all life in the galaxy."  There's no convenient excuse for that outside of the short-term moral "right" of the moment.  "they need saving, save them."

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 juin 2011 - 03:30 .

[DPSSOC]

Rip504 wrote...

Also let's not forget the fact that we lose 8 human vessels. But we gain the DA. That has a crew of over 10,000 and is one of the biggest ships in the galaxy. So I say it is safe to assume it has decent weapons . It was caught off-guard in a surprise attack by the Geth and Sovereign. Any ship can be in danger of being destroyed in this situation. Also Admiral Hackett states the DA was part of the battle,suggesting it helped. Ashley talks about the size and power of DA's guns.

The DA was part of the Battle of the Citadel but when/if you save it it sounds to me like it's down for the count; no means of repairing damage to hull and relying completely on kinectic barriers that were already torn down once I would think Citadel forces would build up another screen (smaller vessels to handle ships that get too close for the main gun to be effective) and get it the hell out of dodge rather than hang out in the thick of the fighting.  Had the distress call been, "We're getting swarmed and our kinetic barriers are failing," I could see the DA taking part in the battle and that would factor in to the decision, but from what we hear it sounds to me like she's dead weight at this point.

Rip504 wrote...
So in my opinion both Paragon and Renegade have around the same amount of fire power,even if the Renegade has slightly more. I don't think it is enough to simple say I let the DA and 10,000 sentient beings die, to ensure victory over Sovereign. As the DA is also a powerful ship. Using all your forces on the Reaper seems like a convenient excuse.
 
I think the real choice here is are you willing to sacrifice humans for aliens or are you willing to let aliens die to save humans. As ME1 has a little bit more to do with Alien/Human Relations. First Human Spectre. Cerberus is anti-alien hate group.etc.

We don't know how many people are on board the DA until ME2 though, all we know is that the Council is on board.  So for me, and of course you're free to disagree, the decision boils down to; is the Council, or any HoS, worth sacrificing ships and time against Sovereign.  I don't know how much firepower it will take to destroy Sovereign (I don't even know that we can) and I don't know how long Vigil's program will lock Sovereign out of the system, so I have to decide if the Council and the continued stability they provide (even organized political shifts are chaotic) are worth risking defeat.  That was how the decision looked to me on my first playthrough and I ended up deciding the Council wasn't worth it.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

DPSSOC wrote...
The DA was part of the Battle of the Citadel but when/if you save it it sounds to me like it's down for the count; no means of repairing damage to hull and relying completely on kinectic barriers that were already torn down once I would think Citadel forces would build up another screen (smaller vessels to handle ships that get too close for the main gun to be effective) and get it the hell out of dodge rather than hang out in the thick of the fighting.  Had the distress call been, "We're getting swarmed and our kinetic barriers are failing," I could see the DA taking part in the battle and that would factor in to the decision, but from what we hear it sounds to me like she's dead weight at this point.

In the Arrival DLC, Hackett does confirm that the DA helped the Alliance take down Sovereign... but it doesn't seem to matter whether it's Paragon or Renegade.  I haven't encountered a different answer... which points to Hackett's line being a blanket statement... or more Paragon Favoritism.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 juin 2011 - 03:56 .

[DPSSOC]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
In the Arrival DLC, Hackett does confirm that the DA helped the Alliance take down Sovereign... but it doesn't seem to matter whether it's Paragon or Renegade.  I haven't encountered a different answer... which points to Hackett's line being a blanket statement... or more Paragon Favoritism.

Really?  Played Arrival twice never heard anything about the DA, must replay I suppose.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ask Hackett about the Reapers and he says it. But in the ME1 cutscene where Sovereign is destroyed, the DA is nowhere to be seen (even in the wide shots)... which further suggests that Hackett used a blanket statement, or there was a Retcon/Paragon Favoritism.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 juin 2011 - 03:58 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

"Shepard doesn't know how many ships will gets destroyed saving the DA,there is no way of knowing the fleet will be strong enough afterwards AND Shepard only has temporary controll of the Citadel,meaning Sovereign could regain control any second,leaving half of the fleet outside and allowing the portal to open. Saving the Council means a way heavier risk for all of the Galaxy."

Just posting someone else's view on this for the heck of it... (random youtube comment, fentina)

[stysiaq]

Well, I didn't manage to read the whole thread, but I agree, that Paragon choices are in most of the cases the obvious ones. I never truly had the feeling, that by choosing Renegade choice I sacrifice something for the greater good - because I just couldn't see any good outcome right away. Even if in ME3 we will see any good results of destroying the Genophage cure data, or killing the Rachni queen, it won't change the impression, that the Renegade Shepard is a character, who makes reckless, disastrous choices which just happen to have any good outcome at all.

I didn't have that feeling, when I was making the save Council/ let the Council die decision. As I remember it, one of your squadmates will support one decision, the other supports second. Both choices seem perfectly reasonable, although we all knew, that regardless of the choice it is end of the game, and it will be the boss fight, not the amount of human fleet, that will lead to the Sovereign downfall. With that in mind, it's quite simple to come to the conclusion, that leaving the Council to die is pretty much the same as being a douchebag. Personally I tend to save the Destiny Ascension - although even that ships firepower is unsignificant, if the galaxy is about to fight several Sovereigns at once - really, I see little-to-none faith that any Reapers will be brought down by combined fleets of the Citadel races, especially when the Council does not believe in the Reapers at all.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

@stysiaq, so for you it wasn't about the situation that drove your decision, you just felt that you knew the choice wouldn't result in a mission fail... that the boss fight would be the only decider so there was no risk or real sacrifice to make in saving the Council, correct?

[Barquiel]

I will never understand how not saving the Destiny Ascension makes any sense from a political or a strategic viewpoint. Saving the DA keeps the geth from interfering while attacking an unknown dreadnought.
"Let's hope the geth won't defend Sovereign (=their god) if it's attacked" seems a bit too optimistic...

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Still forgetting the Reaper threat. If the Geth gave chase, a part of the squadron could break off and engage them. The focus would still be stopping Sovereign.  Having the Geth break formation and chase also puts them in a more vulnerable position than to charge right into their perimeter and oncoming missles.

Look at this quote from a youtube poster.  Grammer aside, see if what he/she's saying makes sense:

"Shepard doesn't know how many ships will gets destroyed saving the DA,there is no way of knowing the fleet will be strong enough afterwards AND Shepard only has temporary controll of the Citadel,meaning Sovereign could regain control any second,leaving half of the fleet outside and allowing the portal to open. Saving the Council means a way heavier risk for all of the Galaxy." -Fentina

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 juin 2011 - 05:11 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

With the Reapers present and attacking the Galaxy in ME3, I think it's highly feasable for the Galaxy to understand and see/respect now why the Council was sacrificed (to prevent the Reapers from arriving then... when the galaxy wasn't as strong).

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 juin 2011 - 05:15 .