239 réponses à ce sujet

[Jorina Leto]

wizardryforever wrote...

Are you familiar with this?  Gameplay and Story Segregation -> tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation

Does the existence of a trope about this mean we have to like it? No, it doesn't!

Modifié par Jorina Leto, 10 juin 2011 - 10:17 .

[Inutaisho7996]

Jorina Leto wrote...

This codex entry does not explain why the crew of the Hugo Gernsback have them.
And it's stil doesn't explain why there is no automatic weapon cooling anymore.

The first one's called a plot hole, not retcon. Fans would hate that mission more if they ran out of ammo, and there was no way to get it back.

Modifié par Inutaisho7996, 11 juin 2011 - 01:11 .

[Inutaisho7996]

Calinstel wrote...

tobynator89 wrote...

*snip
At least they made a decent excuse to change it that fit within the lore of the game.

No, they completely altered the whole weapons systems then wrote a weak addendum to the codex to cover their posterior. 

They changed the first game from stopping a Xenophobic rogue Spectre to stopping a race of artificially intelligent star ships and wrote a weak addendum to Saren's character by saying his mind was being controlled by his ship to cover their posterior!

If they explain how things are different it's not a retcon. A retcon is an addition to a previously established fact, or subtraction from an event from a previous story. Mass Effect 2 acknowledges previous weapons technology, and explains how it has changed in the previous two years.

Miranda did explain thermal clips to Shepard, but that dialogue was cut. I do think that was a poor decision.
This happens at 0:23 in this video: www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Inutaisho7996, 11 juin 2011 - 01:10 .

[kaiki01]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Kakistos_ wrote...

Are there any retcons from Mass Effect 2 or even 1 that you would like rectified in Mass Effect 3? Some such subjects that I would like corrected or elaborated on are Thermal clips, Ammo "Powers" and Genophage fertility. Discuss.

I see where this is going and the answer is No. ME2 > ME1.

+1

[Whatever42]

Changing a game mechanic is not really a retcon, even if they weakly explain it in story terms.

There really wasn't anything retconned in ME2 per se. There were some plot holes. One of which is why the Reapers were building a human reaper at that time in the first place. It really was sufficiently explained. It seems to be the Reapers were just getting an early jump but it was a big risk considering that it wouldn't be ready in time for the war.

[Dave666]

Jorina Leto wrote...

Inutaisho7996 wrote...

Kakistos_ wrote...

Agreed. I wouldn't find Thermal Clips so distasteful if there was a decent explanation for their use.

It was long thought that personal weapons had plateaued in
performance, but the geth proved all theories wrong. Mathematically
reviewing their combat logs, the geth found that in an age of kinetic
barriers, most firefights were won by the side who could put the most
rounds down-range the fastest. But combatants were forced to
deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat, or pause as their
weapons vented.
To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat
sinks known as thermal clips. While organic arms manufacturers were
initially doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier
can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior
enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead, and
today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips.

 From the Codex.

This codex entry does not explain why the crew of the Hugo Gernsback have them.
And it's stil doesn't explain why there is no automatic weapon cooling anymore.

Precisely and therein lies the problem with the codex explanation.  IF Thermal Clips acted as a boost to fire-rate but when depleted the guns reverted to the overheat mechanic, then it makes sense.  As it currently stands if a person runs out of Thermal Clips then they're left with a glorified club.  Which military in their right minds would do that?  It adds extra logistics which could be disrupted during war time and will get people killed.

[wizardryforever]

Yeah, how dare they change things to make the gameplay better?!  I mean, who do they think they are, the developers or something?  Things should be static for all eternity, rather ever change!  I mean, change = bad in all instances.

. . . Wait, what was I saying?

If not liking something was an excuse to rant about it in innumerable threads, you have no idea the number of threads I'd have about people driving slowly in the left lane.

[ipgd]

I really, really hate the use of the word retcon to mean "any change I don't like". It is an otherwise useful word devalued by rampant misuse. It has a definition, people.

Thermal clips would be a retcon if the narrative of the game established everyone had been using thermal clips all along in ME1. Instead, they explained the transition from fixed heatsinks to thermal clips within the narrative without contradicting anything previously established. That you do not like this explanation does not make it a retcon.

[Spectre_907]

A thermal clip is not a retcon nor was it a step back in the techonology established in the first game. Heat sinks were common during 2183 during ship-to-ship combat with the use of ventilation of lithium-sodium mixture tanks. Just picture ejecting a thermal clip as simply taking out the entire lithium-sodium tank of a ship and replacing it with a new one to absorb heat on a smaller scale.

A retcon would be something like the alpha relay being destroyed by an asteroid in Arrival when we know from Mass Effect that relays can survive the shockwave of a supernova or Zaeed and Vido Santiago being the founders of the Blue Suns.

[this isnt my name]

wizardryforever wrote...

Yeah, how dare they change things to make the gameplay better?!  I mean, who do they think they are, the developers or something?  Things should be static for all eternity, rather ever change!  I mean, change = bad in all instances.

. . . Wait, what was I saying?

If not liking something was an excuse to rant about it in innumerable threads, you have no idea the number of threads I'd have about people driving slowly in the left lane.

Better = oppinion. IMO ME1 did ammo better, hell it did combat better, it was clunky, but it wasnt a tps, enemy engineers, overheated my gun, stopped powers all sorts. Here its just shooting, occasional combat drone.

[RoboticWater]

Calinstel wrote...

Change that is a step up in technological advancement makes perfect sense. Change that means you have to loose immersion in the game just so you can run around looking for those 'random' thermal clips makes no sense. Had ME1 started with them, there would be no issue but to step backwards in a new game? Silly.
Any weapon that can loose its functionality is a greater threat than having to wait a few moments as the weapon cooled. I do admit, that in ME1, the frictionless mods made the heat issue non-existent. To fix the issue, all that was needed was to limit the amount they cooled, not change the entire weapons system.

There was no step it is like choosing between power evolutions like more damage or longer duration. You could have either:
1.More bullets down the feild with limited ammo
2.Unlimited ammo with less bullets down the field. If you say unlimited is better, how many times did you completely run out of ammo for all weapons because it never happened to me on insanity.

Modifié par BlahDog, 11 juin 2011 - 02:04 .

[Flashlegend]

BlahDog wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

Change that is a step up in technological advancement makes perfect sense. Change that means you have to loose immersion in the game just so you can run around looking for those 'random' thermal clips makes no sense. Had ME1 started with them, there would be no issue but to step backwards in a new game? Silly.
Any weapon that can loose its functionality is a greater threat than having to wait a few moments as the weapon cooled. I do admit, that in ME1, the frictionless mods made the heat issue non-existent. To fix the issue, all that was needed was to limit the amount they cooled, not change the entire weapons system.

There was no step it is like choosing between power evolutions like more damage or longer duration. You could have either:
1.More bullets down the feild with limited ammo
2.Unlimited ammo with less bullets down the field. If you say unlimited is better, how many times did you completely fun out of ammo for all weapons because it never happened to me on insanity.

Because clips were conveniently lying around on the ground all over the place. =p

[RoboticWater]

Flashlegend wrote...

BlahDog wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

Change that is a step up in technological advancement makes perfect sense. Change that means you have to loose immersion in the game just so you can run around looking for those 'random' thermal clips makes no sense. Had ME1 started with them, there would be no issue but to step backwards in a new game? Silly.
Any weapon that can loose its functionality is a greater threat than having to wait a few moments as the weapon cooled. I do admit, that in ME1, the frictionless mods made the heat issue non-existent. To fix the issue, all that was needed was to limit the amount they cooled, not change the entire weapons system.

There was no step it is like choosing between power evolutions like more damage or longer duration. You could have either:
1.More bullets down the feild with limited ammo
2.Unlimited ammo with less bullets down the field. If you say unlimited is better, how many times did you completely fun out of ammo for all weapons because it never happened to me on insanity.

Because clips were conveniently lying around on the ground all over the place. =p

Lucily in war ammo is plentiful wether it is in crates or on bodies of the fallen.

[Dave666]

BlahDog wrote...

Flashlegend wrote...

BlahDog wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

Change that is a step up in technological advancement makes perfect sense. Change that means you have to loose immersion in the game just so you can run around looking for those 'random' thermal clips makes no sense. Had ME1 started with them, there would be no issue but to step backwards in a new game? Silly.
Any weapon that can loose its functionality is a greater threat than having to wait a few moments as the weapon cooled. I do admit, that in ME1, the frictionless mods made the heat issue non-existent. To fix the issue, all that was needed was to limit the amount they cooled, not change the entire weapons system.

There was no step it is like choosing between power evolutions like more damage or longer duration. You could have either:
1.More bullets down the feild with limited ammo
2.Unlimited ammo with less bullets down the field. If you say unlimited is better, how many times did you completely fun out of ammo for all weapons because it never happened to me on insanity.

Because clips were conveniently lying around on the ground all over the place. =p

Lucily in war ammo is plentiful wether it is in crates or on bodies of the fallen.

Which works great...right up until one side has the bright idea to sabotage Thermal Clips and leave them where their enemy will find them.  I don't know about you, but I'd be a bit hesitant putting something in my gun if I didn't know whether it would cause my gun to explode and kill me...

[RoboticWater]

Calinstel wrote...

BlahDog wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

Change that is a step up in technological advancement makes perfect sense. Change that means you have to loose immersion in the game just so you can run around looking for those 'random' thermal clips makes no sense. Had ME1 started with them, there would be no issue but to step backwards in a new game? Silly.
Any weapon that can loose its functionality is a greater threat than having to wait a few moments as the weapon cooled. I do admit, that in ME1, the frictionless mods made the heat issue non-existent. To fix the issue, all that was needed was to limit the amount they cooled, not change the entire weapons system.

There was no step it is like choosing between power evolutions more bullets down the feild with limited ammo  or  unlimited ammo with less bullets down the field. If you say unlimited is better, just think how many times did you completely fun out of ammo for all weapons because it never happened to me on insanity.

Okay, I'll ask you this.  Start the LotSB DLC.  Do not pick up thermal clips which SHOULD be blown off the ship but lucky for us, stay put.  How long do your weapons last now. 
Now, take that scenario and put it to real battlefield conditions.  Not where you're the one advancing, but having to fall back.  The entire premise of the new system either forces your supply chain to now supply something that was never needed before or for you to advance.  If you do not advance, you never encounter fresh, 'random', thermal clips and run out.  If your bunkered down, not a good thing either as you have no new thermal clips around you.  That is what I am saying.  The backwards evolution, from NOT requiring additional equipment, to needing it, just makes no sense.  It is not an advancement. 

Your point makes sense, I agree with you in that scenario. But most battles in the time period are not open battle but small black ops missions where more power is better than more time to hold out thus a reasonable answer for the switch. but lore aside ammo fixes the easiness of the first game (if you get 3 heat sinks in a pistol that is all you need in the entire game.) 

Modifié par BlahDog, 11 juin 2011 - 02:25 .

[Icinix]

*cough*

Thermal Clips / Ammo

I really don't like them.

*runs from thread*

[Destroy Raiden_]

Feros Asari being purple again. Shep miscalled her blue in ME2.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Sgt Stryker wrote...
- Shepard's uncanny metabolism which requires no food, water, or sleep.

Could've sworn Shepard slept with their LI in ME and ME2...

As for the rest, Shepard is Jack Bauer, s/he eats and drinks during the cutscenes just like Bauer does.

[Spectre_907]

Calinstel wrote...
Okay, I'll ask you this.  Start the LotSB DLC.  Do not pick up thermal clips which SHOULD be blown off the ship but lucky for us, stay put.  How long do your weapons last now. 
Now, take that scenario and put it to real battlefield conditions.  Not where you're the one advancing, but having to fall back.  The entire premise of the new system either forces your supply chain to now supply something that was never needed before or for you to advance.  If you do not advance, you never encounter fresh, 'random', thermal clips and run out.  If your bunkered down, not a good thing either as you have no new thermal clips around you.  That is what I am saying.  The backwards evolution, from NOT requiring additional equipment, to needing it, just makes no sense.  It is not an advancement.

If you're assuming thermal clips work like ammunition, then I would disagree. Thermal clips do not detract from weapon reliability during cool down. Where does all that heat go? It would have to be dispersed throughout the gun and vented. Realistically speaking, the weapons would still work as they do in ME. You would simply have to fire at a lower rate to prevent overheat or wait while the weapon vents during. You would simply be at a disadvantage from the enemy with more supply, they would have better firing rates.

A middle ground would be to implement the same system in ME with weapons allowing for a gradual cool down but also have a limited number of heat sinks so that the game does not force you to be on the advance.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 11 juin 2011 - 02:56 .

[RoboticWater]

Calinstel wrote...

BlahDog wrote...

Your point makes sense, I agree with you in that scenario. But most battles in the time period are not open battle but small black ops missions where more power is better than more time to hold out thus a reasonable answer for the switch. but lore aside ammo fixes the easiness of the first game (if you get 3 heat sinks in a pistol that is all you need in the entire game.) 

Improved armor and shields would have corrected the 'easiness' as well and not required anything other than just updating a database of stats.  Reducing the number of mods, again, just a simple change in the database, would have also corrected it.  Neither of these options would have caused as much uproar as what was done.
Weapons mods, removed from weapons and put as powers?
Weapons that don't require reloading ammunition now require reloading heatsinks?
Armor and shields that worked now drop almost as soon as the battle begins?
Though making the game harder, I do grant you that, they also make no sense.  Each change was a step backwards and that is what I have a problem with.  Not that thermal clips are required, but that they are required now as a supposed advancment.  

As Bioware said they wanted to totally revamp the combat system and they did. Making leaps of faith is sometimes good with games and sometimes bad in my opinion what they did was good. I think that reloading heat sinks is more creative than reloading power things or whatever scifi ammo is these days. Also most people dont like games when the only thing defining difficulty between games is dealing more damage and being able to take more damage, the best answer is to make a big change. Sheilds going down quickly means there is a bigger focus on cover, in the first game you could play it practically like Halo (run and gun). Ammo powers are there because the soldier had no other advantage than bringing all the weapons and passive powers were not a good replacement.

Modifié par BlahDog, 11 juin 2011 - 03:04 .