239 réponses à ce sujet

[KainrycKarr]

Jorina Leto wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...


- Shepard's inability to crouch unless next to a chest-high wall

ME1 featured it. The lack of this is a known point of criticism.

Sgt Stryker wrote...
- Shepard's uncanny metabolism which requires no food, water, or sleep

There are time skips during cutscenes. Jonn Whitson's e-mail should make this obvious. But yeah there is room for improvment.

Sgt Stryker wrote...
- The Normandy flying from one star system to another in seconds (not using relays, mind you)

Yeah, the model Normandy is stupid. It should still work like ME1.

Sgt Stryker wrote...
- Biotic users not becoming exhausted and passing out after firing several powers in a row in the space of a few minutes

I would like it if biotics worked like described in the codex.

Thank god you're not in charge. This would make biotics incredibly boring.

[RoboticWater]

Calinstel wrote...

BlahDog wrote...
*snip

As Bioware said they wanted to totally revamp the combat system and they did. Making leaps of faith is sometimes good with games and sometimes bad in my opinion what they did was good. I think that reloading heat sinks is more creative than reloading power things or whatever scifi ammo is these days. Also most people dont like games when the only thing defining difficulty between games is dealing more damage and being able to take more damage, the best answer is to make a big change. Sheilds going down quickly means there is a bigger focus on cover, in the first game you could play it practically like Halo (run and gun). Ammo powers are there because the soldier had no other advantage than bringing all the weapons and passive powers were not a good replacement.

Again, a simple database change would have created the exact same scenario without alienating a number of players.  The change to thermal clips is simply a way to add ammo into a game that required none.  Used this way, they keep the lore of the hunk of metal for rounds meaning no 'ammo' is needed but forcing the player to change tactics in gameplay.  Increasing weapon damage in ME1 would have done the exact same thing. 

Most devs don't like to just change a database entry, every sequel needs something improved from the last game or it is usually bashed by reviewers and players. The speech system was great but the combat needed improvements and a simple stat change is something a simple modder would do (in fact there is a mod which gives you infinite ammo in ME2) the change was refreshing and "alienating"? adding ammo did not make ME2 unplayable for people. A good change in tactics is making the players make smater decisions about combat and ME1 was alot about run and gun (not smart).  Rhyming is fun and makes a good point too!

Modifié par BlahDog, 11 juin 2011 - 03:24 .

[RoboticWater]

Calinstel wrote...

BlahDog wrote...
*snip

Most devs don't like to just change a database entry, every sequel needs something improved from the last game or it is usually bashed by reviewers and players. The speech system was great but the combat needed improvements and a simple stat change is something a simple modder would do (in fact there is a mod which gives you infinite ammo in ME2) the change was refreshing and "alienating"? adding ammo did not make ME2 unplayable for people. A good change in tactics is making the players make smater decisions about combat and ME1 was alot about run and gun (not smart).  Rhyming is fun and makes a good point too!

But that takes us back to the beginning.  Taking a working, futuristic, system and moving backwards with it.  What is next? M16's?
The dev's seem to be doing upgrades to game play from ME2 to 3 without making too many jarring tech changes.  Why was it done from 1 to 2?  The change was not refreshing, just confusing to me.  If you want to improve game play, make the combat better, not more limited and that is just what they did.  They limited the player.  If not, why can we not swap out thermal clips from a never touched pistol to an AR or Sniper rifle?  Limiting options is not improving game play but forcing a preconceived way of playing on the person. 
This topic is about retcons and thermal clips are retcons.  The took an established, working system and for no better reason than to force the player to use tactics the devs wanted the player to use, changed the game.  Collectors use the exact same thermal clips that the rest of the galaxy uses?  Shepard wakes up already knowing about them?  The Hugo Gurnsback not only used them but had upgrades as well?  That means they changed the galaxy at least 8 years before the start of ME1.  It makes no sense.

From 1 to 2 the speech was fine but the combat was not, form 2 to 3 it is mostly refinements because combat needed no major improvements. ME1 did not need combat additions or refinements but a new system, reviewers even said in their review "Vehicle navigation and combat are weak," "The RPG elements are outstanding. Glitches, poor AI, and weak squad mechanics weigh the game down." in otherwords poor combat, obviously not a working system (it is established. These kind of things were absent in ME2 reviews. The other things are plot holes, I admit, but from a dev point of view it is worth it for improved gameplay.
Here are the reviews
http://www.gamespot....=result;score;4
http://xbox360.ign.c...3/833640p4.html
and the ME2 ones
http://www.gamespot....=result;score;2
http://xbox360.ign.c.../1062898p2.html

Modifié par BlahDog, 11 juin 2011 - 04:07 .

[Spectre_907]

Calinstel wrote...
Thermal clips are EXACTLY like ammo mags.

Yeah, in gameplay. Not with lore. You're using a real-life scenario to demonstrate how they work. Ammo is still unlimited and heat is still dispersed and vented. Thermal clips are just more efficient means of ventilation but the principle would remain the same even if there were no clips. Without the clips, they just work like old ME-style weapons. Nothing in the game lore says that if you run out of clips, your gun can never vent heat or cool down. Note that YMIR mechs still utilize a venting system and pause after their weapons overheat. I don't see them no longer firing after their weapons overheat. That's why I spoke of the hybrid system because it's a little less misleading, lore-wise, than the current one we have.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 11 juin 2011 - 04:04 .

[FlyingWalrus]

Sigh.

Okay. The changes made to Mass Effect 2 from Mass Effect weren't all perfect or great, but for the most part they improved the action part of the game. For one reason or another—time constraints, by design, etc.

Consider me one of those people that was a little hacked off that Cmdr Shepard knew what a thermal clip was after a two year coma, but then I thought about it at odd times over the past year since then. Coming updates in military technology are usually well-known ahead of time so that the transfers can be made smoothly. Troops are often allowed to playtest the new hardware to get opinions and some field data. Shepard himself is fairly high up in the Alliance hierarchy, even if he is still mostly considered a grunt. It's possible that he knew these upgrades were coming, did some of the testing himself, or otherwise that allowed him to identify a gun that used a thermal clip and thus needed one to function.

If you're so caught up in lore, then you'd need to realize that a hybrid system would make for terrible wear on the gun. Have you ever worked with hot metal? Anyone who has will tell you that it takes a long, LONG time for red-hot metal to cool down. Worst of all, the metal can warp if it gets too hot. Sustained fire of an overheated weapon like a squad machine gun can result in jams, misfires and loss of life or limb as a result of those mechanical failures. If I recall correctly, one of our military members here made the argument for thermal clips citing that machine gun squads always carried extra barrels to swap out if a machine gun began to overheat during a prolonged firefight.

Plus, in a hard vacuum, the gun would not only overheat faster but it would stay hot LONGER. Because there is no air in a vacuum, there is no conduit through which to disperse the excess heat. Disposable heat sinks are the obvious smart choice for commandos like Shepard.

I just wish Bioware was a little better at articulating the rationale, but even then I doubt it would please the pissers who are just mad that they can no longer fire at perfect accuracy forever with just one rank in Assault Rifles, a Spectre VII AR with two heatsinks and a scram rail. Infinite ammo was a dumb gameplay decision on Bioware's part and was actually as un-RPG as you can get. In pretty much every RPG, you gotta have ammunition to fire a weapon.

[RoboticWater]

Calinstel wrote...

BlahDog wrote...

*snip

From 1 to 2 the speech was fine but the combat was not, form 2 to 3 it is mostly refinements because combat needed no major improvements. ME1 did not need combat additions or refinements but a new system, reviewers even said in their review "Vehicle navigation and combat are weak," "The RPG elements are outstanding. Glitches, poor AI, and weak squad mechanics weigh the game down." in otherwords poor combat, obviously not a working system (it is established. These kind of things were absent in ME2 reviews. The other things are plot holes, I admit, but from a dev point of view it is worth it for improved gameplay.
Here are the reviews
http://www.gamespot....=result;score;4
http://xbox360.ign.c...3/833640p4.html
and the ME2 ones
http://www.gamespot....=result;score;2
http://xbox360.ign.c.../1062898p2.html

If I let a review decide if I like a game or movie, I'm a fool.  What another person likes I may not and the reverse is true as well.  As an analogy, the devs started with a bland banana nut bread.  So, instead of making a better banana nut, they created a pumpkin bread.  That in itself makes no sense.  How would you feel expecting one and getting another for no reason except someone else said it was bad?  There are many ways to fix things that are broken without a complete swap of known, established, lore.  Hell, had they said that they upped the firepower but at the cost of needing to replenish power I could buy that.  The weapons could still have fired at the much lower rate if your powerlevels dropped but you could still use the danged weapon instead of looking around a battlefield for replacements.
And explain this?  A thermal clip is a solid device inserted into the weapon.  It is not segmented but if I fire one round and reload, a thermal clip is ejected.  If using a pistol, that should mean that a thermal clip that could hold the heat from 12 rounds was just ejected, losing 11 rounds in the process.  That makes no sense what so ever.  How is that better?

I agree that reviews should not convince you what to like but it is a way for reviewers to tell the devs whats wrong and they said combat was wrong for them and most reviews fit the opinions of majority, so Bioware caters to that for the most part because it is more organized than the rantings of forums (I may be wrong about how Bioware does this but I have not been corrected). Of course Bioware could have fixed it many ways, ammo being one of them. It has been two years in the game, they can change what they want, if it was tow days i would be on your side about the lore but sometimes lore has to fit around gameplay no matter how silly it may be. About the bannana bread and the pumpkin bread, you were fully aware of the pumpkin bread's nuts (Thermal clips) if you watched the demos. You may not like the nuts but if you have gone this far in the forums and ME3 news you must have liked the pumpkin bread enough. As for your last point, this is something that is in every singe game that has ammo and is a bad argument considering most to all of those games don't have arguments about it. If all games with ammo did have them the idea as a whole would have been dropped years ago.

[Sgt Stryker]

Calinstel wrote...
Your weapon without a thermal clip does not fire.  It is useless until you find replacements. 

Only in gameplay. Not in lore.

[RoboticWater]

Calinstel wrote...

Spectre_907 wrote...

Calinstel wrote...
Thermal clips are EXACTLY like ammo mags.

Yeah, in gameplay. Not with lore. You're using a real-life scenario to demonstrate how they work. Ammo is still unlimited and heat is still dispersed and vented. Thermal clips are just more efficient means of ventilation but the principle would remain the same even if there were no clips. Without the clips, they just work like old ME-style weapons. Nothing in the game lore says that if you run out of clips, your gun can never vent heat or cool down. Note that YMIR mechs still utilize a venting system and pause after their weapons overheat. I don't see them no longer firing after their weapons overheat. That's why I spoke of the hybrid system because it's a little less misleading, lore-wise, than the current one we have.

The principle maybe but that is not what we play with.  Your weapon without a thermal clip does not fire.  It is useless until you find replacements.  How is this different from any run of the mill warfare game?  You're still forced to spend time looking for ammo mags, thermal clips, instead of moving forward. 

People need to stop comparing ME2 to COD and Halo, at no point was I forced to move back to get ammo. ME series has a story, suqad commands, and biotcs so it is not just a regular "warfare" game.

[Jonathan Shepard]

Jorina Leto wrote...

The way the thermal clips are working is just wrong. The hybrid system ist the solution.

Shields shouldn't protect against melee attack.

I want health, armor and shields for everyone.

And Ammo Powers are just ridiculous.

Pretend the ammo block shreds exist. They do technically. Shepard just refuses to use them, apparently. 

Shields protecting against melee IS stupid. Fortunately, this whole "AWESOME BUTTON" melee attack (face it, that's what it is) seems to be the answer lore-wise. It kills the target instantly! How, you ask!? Kinetic barriers need not apply to the AWESOME BLADE!
...yeah. <_<

Armor/Shields/Health system would be nice for companions, but I doubt it'll be visible on squaddies, even if it is on Shep.

Ammo powers are not ridiculous gameplay-wise, though the name makes them sound as much. It also makes sense if you play as a soldier. Soldiers /have/ no special abilities. Why should they? They trained for combat. Not hacking systems or throwing mass effect fields around. Not to be rude, but if you want super-powers, go play a class with the powers you like. It's that simple. Makes sense that the tech any combat-oriented class would deal with would be how well their weapon(s) (and its ammunition) functions. Think of it less as an ammo power, and more like a gun power. Shep just changes the setting on the gun, and it effects the bullets. Much more sensible that way.

[SamT3N7]

Did they retcon the fact that the Citadel is a giant mass relay? Because no one has mentioned it since Vigil in ME1.

[wr3xl3ss]

The sooner people realize that "gameplay" comes first and "common sense" comes second, the better. Personally, I cringed when I first saw the way you deployed certain biotic powers, such as singularity, throw, lift, whatever.

SamT3N7 wrote...

Did they retcon the fact that the Citadel is a giant mass relay? Because no one has mentioned it since Vigil in ME1.

Nevermind.

The security guard in the citadel bar calls Conduit to the mini-MR I think, so some people know about it at least.

Modifié par wr3xl3ss, 11 juin 2011 - 05:10 .

[FlyingWalrus]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Calinstel wrote...
Your weapon without a thermal clip does not fire.  It is useless until you find replacements. 

Only in gameplay. Not in lore.

I disagree. A weapon locking down and not firing without a thermal clip could easily be a safety mechanism. If there's no thermal clip in place, guess where that hot emission is going to vent? Probably into the operator's hand, or a nearby squadmate.

[Sgt Stryker]

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

Pretend the ammo block shreds exist. They do technically. Shepard just refuses to use them, apparently. 

Of course the ammo block still exists. Where do you think the ammo comes from? Surely not the thermal clip (which holds heat sinks).

Jonathan Shepard wrote...
Shields protecting against melee IS stupid. Fortunately, this whole "AWESOME BUTTON" melee attack (face it, that's what it is) seems to be the answer lore-wise. It kills the target instantly! How, you ask!? Kinetic barriers need not apply to the AWESOME BLADE!
...yeah. <_<

Why wouldn't the AWESOMEBLADE bypass kinetic barriers? It is after all, just a diamond monomolecular blade encased in a mass effect field. Nothing involving speeding bullets there, so why would a kinetic barrier repel it?

Also, have we reached concensus? Are we calling it the AWESOMEBLADE now?

EDIT: OK Flying Walrus, I withdraw my previous remark. In all likelihood, a weapon needs at least some sort of heat sink to function, and has a safety interrupt if it detects no heat sink loaded.

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 11 juin 2011 - 05:16 .

[SamT3N7]

wr3xl3ss wrote...

The sooner people realize that "gameplay" comes first and "common sense" comes second, the better. Personally, I cringed when I first saw the way you deployed certain biotic powers, such as singularity, throw, lift, whatever.

SamT3N7 wrote...

Did they retcon the fact that the Citadel is a giant mass relay? Because no one has mentioned it since Vigil in ME1.

Nevermind.

The security guard in the citadel bar calls Conduit to the mini-MR I think, so some people know about it at least.

I forgot about that, the groundskeep in Dark Star calls it the Conduit when talking about some flowers.  I just thought it was weird it isn't mentioned more.

[Jonathan Shepard]

FlyingWalrus wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Calinstel wrote...
Your weapon without a thermal clip does not fire.  It is useless until you find replacements. 

Only in gameplay. Not in lore.

I disagree. A weapon locking down and not firing without a thermal clip could easily be a safety mechanism. If there's no thermal clip in place, guess where that hot emission is going to vent? Probably into the operator's hand, or a nearby squadmate.

Logic! Y'know, this must be the TRUE reason the Alliance (and everyone else) switched over.

Still doesn't explain how Shepard KNEW he couldn't fire without a thermal clip (like he did all through-out ME1) when bought back from the brink of death. -shrug- 

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

Pretend the ammo block shreds exist. They do technically. Shepard just refuses to use them, apparently. 

Of course the ammo block still exists. Where do you think the ammo comes from? Surely not the thermal clip (which holds heat sinks).

Jonathan Shepard wrote...
Shields protecting against melee IS stupid. Fortunately, this whole "AWESOME BUTTON" melee attack (face it, that's what it is) seems to be the answer lore-wise. It kills the target instantly! How, you ask!? Kinetic barriers need not apply to the AWESOME BLADE!
...yeah. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

Why wouldn't the AWESOMEBLADE bypass kinetic barriers? It is after all, just a diamond monomolecular blade encased in a mass effect field. Nothing involving speeding bullets there, so why would a kinetic barrier repel it?

Also, have we reached concensus? Are we calling it the AWESOMEBLADE now?

I dunno. I just think that the soldier should've had an actual switchblade, and either the engineer or infiltrator should've gotten the tech-blade. Seems more logical that way, but that's not my choice. I'm just saying it's actually the one melee attack that fits the lore. I don't mind it at all!  I just think that if they're going to let one super-melee attack pass a kinetic barrier... why not regular melee attacks? Perhaps the gameplay fix would be to simply not have melee do damage, but become powerful enough to knock a humanoid target down? More of a stun option then, where the AWESOMEBLADE and equivalents would be the damaging "heavy" melee attack. 

Modifié par Jonathan Shepard, 11 juin 2011 - 05:19 .

[RoboticWater]

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

FlyingWalrus wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Calinstel wrote...
Your weapon without a thermal clip does not fire.  It is useless until you find replacements. 

Only in gameplay. Not in lore.

I disagree. A weapon locking down and not firing without a thermal clip could easily be a safety mechanism. If there's no thermal clip in place, guess where that hot emission is going to vent? Probably into the operator's hand, or a nearby squadmate.

Logic! Y'know, this must be the TRUE reason the Alliance (and everyone else) switched over.

Still doesn't explain how Shepard KNEW he couldn't fire without a thermal clip (like he did all through-out ME1) when bought back from the brink of death. -shrug- 

Someone posted on another topic that there was some cut content where Miranda told Shepard to put a thermal clip into the gun. here around .26: 

Modifié par BlahDog, 11 juin 2011 - 05:21 .

[Sgt Stryker]

The pistol's display most likely said the following in big bright red letters:

!!! NO THERMAL CLIP !!!

[Jonathan Shepard]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

The pistol's display most likely said the following in big bright red letters:

!!! NO THERMAL CLIP !!!

But I've seen no visual display on the M-3! But that's just getting nit-picky. 

[mikethor007]

I may be stuffing my foot in my mouth here, but I see no reason as to why firearms wouldn't have both systems in ME2. Using sinks for faster reloading and falling back onto Me1's system when clips run out.

Yeah, ME2's system is better on "reload" times, allowing for a more sustained rate of fire. But it allows one to run out of ammo. And backup weapons only go so far as to help that. Why anyone would invent the "new" system and accept that trade-off is beyond me.

I can't understand why would someone (lore-wise speaking) not take what's good in both systems. The only reason to do that is a pure gameplay change. Messing around with pre-estabilished lore only to make gameplay "cooler" is a bit iffy, especially if Bioware could've used the clip system from the start. I seriously doubt that they didn't think of the clip system at least once while making me1.

[FlyingWalrus]

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

FlyingWalrus wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Calinstel wrote...
Your weapon without a thermal clip does not fire.  It is useless until you find replacements. 

Only in gameplay. Not in lore.

I disagree. A weapon locking down and not firing without a thermal clip could easily be a safety mechanism. If there's no thermal clip in place, guess where that hot emission is going to vent? Probably into the operator's hand, or a nearby squadmate.

Logic! Y'know, this must be the TRUE reason the Alliance (and everyone else) switched over.

Still doesn't explain how Shepard KNEW he couldn't fire without a thermal clip (like he did all through-out ME1) when bought back from the brink of death. -shrug-

I make that supposition here in my earlier post, friend:

Consider me one of those people that was a little hacked off that Cmdr
Shepard knew what a thermal clip was after a two year coma, but then I
thought about it at odd times over the past year since then. Coming
updates in military technology are usually well-known ahead of time so
that the transfers can be made smoothly. Troops are often allowed to
playtest the new hardware to get opinions and some field data. Shepard
himself is fairly high up in the Alliance hierarchy, even if he is still
mostly considered a grunt. It's possible that he knew
these upgrades were coming, did some of the testing himself, or
otherwise that allowed him to identify a gun that used a thermal clip
and thus needed one to function.

[DebatableBubble]

Guys, it's called Gameplay-and-Story Segregation.