239 réponses à ce sujet

[wizardryforever]

littlezack wrote...

...Fallout 3 does not have limitless ammo. In fact, it's even worse than ME2, since not all ammo works on all guns. You have to constantly find the right types and running out altogether is quite common. What are you talking about?

If I had to guess, I'd say he was talking about the fact that you can carry as much ammo as you can find.  It's all weightless, and there's no cap on how much you carry.  Add to that the fact that certain types of ammo are ridiculously easy to find, and ammo is almost never a problem in Fallout 3.

Of course, even in Fallout 3, the most powerful weapons have limits on their ammo.  The difference being that instead of an artificial cap on ammo, rarity limits the use of these weapons.  The Fat Man and Alien Blaster weapons are very powerful, but ammo for them is quite rare.  ME2 used a hard limit because the thermal clips are universal, and rarity of ammo would apply to all weapons if they tried that.

[littlezack]

wizardryforever wrote...

littlezack wrote...

...Fallout 3 does not have limitless ammo. In fact, it's even worse than ME2, since not all ammo works on all guns. You have to constantly find the right types and running out altogether is quite common. What are you talking about?

If I had to guess, I'd say he was talking about the fact that you can carry as much ammo as you can find.  It's all weightless, and there's no cap on how much you carry.  Add to that the fact that certain types of ammo are ridiculously easy to find, and ammo is almost never a problem in Fallout 3.

Of course, even in Fallout 3, the most powerful weapons have limits on their ammo.  The difference being that instead of an artificial cap on ammo, rarity limits the use of these weapons.  The Fat Man and Alien Blaster weapons are very powerful, but ammo for them is quite rare.  ME2 used a hard limit because the thermal clips are universal, and rarity of ammo would apply to all weapons if they tried that.

Yeah, I thought about it for a moment and retracted my statement. I agree with you, though.

[Kakistos_]

JayhartRIC wrote...

I don't see how the loremongers can want ME3 to change the lore. ME2 thermal clips were not a retcon. Bioware tried to explain thermal clips by adding to the lore. Jacob's loyalty mission is a plot hole (or gameplay/story segregation), not a retcon. Regardless of what is noticed in gameplay, thermal clips according to the lore as it stands now are demonstratively better; changing it back to overheating for ME3 is a retcon.

Thermal clips themselves were not a retcon but they way they work and the poor reasoning for having them is. The Codex explanation is something like: Higher DPS=More Victory. How is it possible to have higher DPS when mass effect field generated ammo is coupled with frictionless material mods? Not to mention that the only weapons that the only weapons that "would" benefit from thermal clips are the Assualt Rifle and Machine Gun. Why did the other weapons, which are not designed for high DPS, need them and wouldn't they be far more useful with limitless ammo? I also find it bothersome that enemies don't have to scour the battle field for more clips as they seemingly have unlimited ammo. And what happened to weapon mods? Were Thermal clips really That effective that weapon mods that could significantly lower weapon heat and bypass biotic barriors(and a fun gameplay mechanic) were rendered obsolete?

[Phaedon]

It was long thought that personal weapons had plateaued in performance, but the geth proved all theories wrong. Mathematically reviewing their combat logs, the geth found that in an age of kinetic barriers, most firefights were won by the side who could put the most rounds down-range the fastest. But combatants were forced to deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat, or pause as their weapons vented.

To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat sinks known as thermal clips. While organic arms manufacturers were initially doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead, and today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips.

Fact 1: Overheating gun is suicide in CQC
Fact 2: Overheating gun takes several seconds to return to usable state.
Fact 3: If you don't want your weapon to overheat you need to fire in short bursts
Fact 4: That doesn't of course apply to the new tech, because you can just switch thermal clips.
Fact 5: It takes under a second to reload.
Fact 6: Frictionless material are high level-exclusive loot (VIII,IX,X) and afaik, are not sold by even the Spectres.

Pros of new tech:
More DPS, less "reload" time.

Supposed Cons of new tech:
-Retrofitting required. No. Thermal clips are just "detachable heat sinks"

Even if "frictionless materials" was sold around and it had the same effects that it has in-game, the only advantage it has over ME2 tech is less than a second every several dozens of rounds. It also requires extensive retrofitting, since you have to recall all weapons and change their barrels with barrels that have frictionless materials.

There are obviously some limitations due to which your weapon isn't already equipped with frictionless materials when joining the Alliance or the Council. It either isn't as impressive and game-breaking as the game suggests it to be, or it is too expensive.

Modifié par Phaedon, 12 juillet 2011 - 08:56 .

[CroGamer002]

And also:

"Never forget that your weapon was made by the lowest bidder."

[Kakistos_]

This thread is not only about thermal clips. What do you think of Ammo Powers and Cerberus? Do you consider these to be retcons?

[Praetor Knight]

Kakistos_ wrote...

What do you think of Ammo Powers and Cerberus? Do you consider these to be retcons?

Seriously? No.

Ammo mods being different in gameplay are not retcons, IMHO.

And Cerberus, talk to Miranda on the Normandy so also not a retcon, IMHO.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 13 juillet 2011 - 09:39 .

[shepskisaac]

The Arrival being possible to play before the end of the SM retcons/contradicts the ending with the Reapers only approaching the Milky Way. It's the most glaring continuity error IMO. We'll see how they solve it in ME3, they'll prolly say Arrival-after-SM is the canon story.

[Siansonea]

Thermal clips aren't a retcon per se, but just-awakened Shepard knowing what a thermal clip is, that's stretching it. And the fact that the weapons from the Hugo Gernsback use thermal clips is laughable, since it's a ship that's been marooned on Aiea for ten years.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

They could fix the thermal clip option by saying the original method didn't provide enough damage to the new technology that 2 years introduced. The thermal clips may be lower on ammo (and not infinite anymore)... but provide the stopping power necessary against the new armors and biotic upgrades of the day.

[Praetor Knight]

Siansonea II wrote...

 And the fact that the weapons from the Hugo Gernsback use thermal clips is laughable, since it's a ship that's been marooned on Aiea for ten years.

This LM has issues with who was originally in charge also, aside from enemies dropping TC's.

Darn gameplay requirements!

[Sgt Stryker]

Siansonea II wrote...

Thermal clips aren't a retcon per se, but just-awakened Shepard knowing what a thermal clip is, that's stretching it. And the fact that the weapons from the Hugo Gernsback use thermal clips is laughable, since it's a ship that's been marooned on Aiea for ten years.

Well, we know that ME weapons have on-board computers. Perhaps they have a display that shows an error message when the weapon can't fire (no thermal clip loaded would be one of those conditions where the weapon can't fire). Shepard simply read off what the computer was displaying.

As for Aiea, you got me there, honestly.

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

They could fix the thermal clip option by saying the original method didn't provide enough damage to the new technology that 2 years introduced. The thermal clips may be lower on ammo (and not infinite anymore)... but provide the stopping power necessary against the new armors and biotic upgrades of the day.

That wouldn't work though, because thermal clips are *not* a power or ammunition source. They are detachable heat sinks, that is all. Oh, and who said the weapons described in ME1's lore have truly infinite ammo? 

[ODST 5723]

Jorina Leto wrote...

BlahDog wrote...

Kakistos_ wrote...

Agreed. I wouldn't find Thermal Clips so distasteful if there was a decent explanation for their use. And Ammo Powers are not a skill. I think they should have been integrated into the new modding system.

A decent explanation is this: if you are a normal soldier (not shepard, a normal feild soldier)  would you prefer a long cooldown or a quick reload. Also if ammo powers were there what would the soldier have as his powers. I agree that an ammo mod would be nice but the soldier would be left with next to nothing.

What would you prefer? Just waiting and you can use your gun again or running out of "ammo" and never fire again.
And the way the thermal clips work dosen't make sense. Only a hybrid system would make sense.

You're taking a gameplay convention and propping it up as lore.  It was lore that to avoid overheating the rate of fire that existed within the universe of the game had to be slower.  What you saw in the gameplay were fire rates that would produce so much heat that that it would take a significant amount of time for that to cool down again.

Don't confuse what you saw in the gameplay with the fire rates on those weapons as being part of hte reality of the universe.  Also, don't look at the cooldown time in ME1 as being idicative of how it really worked.  That's there for a gameplay convention.

What you need to be looking at is, what they stated about the thermal clips.  They allowed the geth to fire their weapons more efficiently and more effectively by fundamentally changing the way the weapons handled their heat issues.  The ejectible heat sinks allow for weapons to put way more bullets into play in a much shorter amount of time and without putting the weapon into an overheat scenario.

While you might not feel that way becuase the gameplay in ME1 was broken and allowed for you to rig weapons to never overheat, that's not how it played out in the lore.

A hybrid system makes more sense from a gameplay perspective.  Passive cooling isn't really a viable option in the ME universe.  Not with the speeds at which the bullets are flying.  That kind of heat generation would under sustainted fire would be an incredible stressor on the weapon.

Your argument here is basically the same as asking why a energy sword can be blocked with a rifle in Halo.  In reality, that plasma blade is going to cut through an arm, armor or a weapon like a hot knife through butter.  The lore there is pretty clear, yet the gameplay may show otherwise. 

It's easy to confuse the two

[Miroslav_s46]

Whoa, too much ranting here about ammo system, really, i don't care and dont consider it needing further explanation, its there, deal with it, seriously.

While i don't consider ammo powers retcon, i would have liked them being mods and not powers, and i never heard or read an explanation about it, it's not bothersome but a few more effect would be really welcome.

About everything else,seriously deal with it, if you can't, cry to your mommy or something, we are here to state opinions in a civil manner not to act like a baby and say everyone kiss your arse because you're always right, fan dumbs

[InvincibleHero]

LH_deStrado wrote...

tomorrowstation wrote...

Zaeed's gun was probably converted to hold clips, just like the Kassa Locust.

To be fair, I think Calinstel is talking about the point where Zaeed mentions a fight eight years ago, where Jessie crapped out, in which Zaeed "[doesn't] remember ejecting a clip once." I get the feeling Zaeed was rushed out the door in time for day-one DLC, so it's probable this is just an oversight.

Which can be explained by Jessie being at least 30 year old technology. It preceeded the magic fire infinite guns in ME1 and likely is more akin to todays assault weapons.

[InvincibleHero]

Siansonea II wrote...

Thermal clips aren't a retcon per se, but just-awakened Shepard knowing what a thermal clip is, that's stretching it. And the fact that the weapons from the Hugo Gernsback use thermal clips is laughable, since it's a ship that's been marooned on Aiea for ten years.

We have no evidence that Shepard doesn't know after all the Collector attack is months after the defeat of Saren. Also as a spectre Shepard would be one of the first in line for new technologies. Not to mention being a person that criss-crosses the galaxy. It makes sense Shepard is an early tech adopter. There are many instances in the game of using prototypes and new tech.

[rabidhanar]

Miroslav_s46 wrote...

Whoa, too much ranting here about ammo system, really, i don't care and dont consider it needing further explanation, its there, deal with it, seriously.

While i don't consider ammo powers retcon, i would have liked them being mods and not powers, and i never heard or read an explanation about it, it's not bothersome but a few more effect would be really welcome.

About everything else,seriously deal with it, if you can't, cry to your mommy or something, we are here to state opinions in a civil manner not to act like a baby and say everyone kiss your arse because you're always right, fan dumbs

Great post, eloquently put.

On Topic: I find the thermal clips to be a return to older tech. As in Devancement, as in BAD.
Yes the DPS of the guns are increased, that is a good thing. yet with this DPS burst increase comes a potential 0 dps? Why is 0dps better then X dps a la ME1 again? In addition to this how does this "advancement" help weapons that fire slowly like the Sniper Rifles and the Handguns? The Fire Rate on these weapons already limits them on DPS, with virtual limitless ammunition (read codex on ammo in ME1) and a cooldown (as these weapons are either put into positions where being able to recieve Thermal Clips on the field is difficult, Sniper on a rooftop, or are used as a last resort weapon.) thermal clips would be redundant.

Secondly, the ability to resupply Thermal Clips is odd itself. I am fine with Mercs using Thermal Clips. I am fine with Collectors dropping Thermal Clips. What I am NOT fine with is that Husks, Scions, and Praetarians drop thermal Clips. Multiple Missions (N7 mission, Collector Ship, Collector Base) have this problem. The N7 mission
about the Prothean Relic (not Firewalker DLC) is 100% composed of Husk Enemies. Yet these enemies drop thermal clips out of their mangled corpses. I am also not fine with the Hugo Grensback Crew carrying thermal clip using weapons even though they have been on the planet for 8 years.
If Bioware fixes these two things, I have no problem with the Thermal Clip System.

[Praetor Knight]

rabidhanar wrote...

What I am NOT fine with is that Husks, Scions, and Praetarians drop thermal Clips. Multiple Missions (N7 mission, Collector Ship, Collector Base) have this problem. The N7 mission
about the Prothean Relic (not Firewalker DLC) is 100% composed of Husk Enemies. Yet these enemies drop thermal clips out of their mangled corpses.

They do? I remember permanent ones that regenerate in the environment, but those enemies dropping, I can't remember off hand.

I am also not fine with the Hugo Grensback Crew carrying thermal clip using weapons even though they have been on the planet for 8 years.

There is an issue here, one can try to bring up different reasons, but they often become abstractions of gameplay limitations.

If Bioware fixes these two things, I have no problem with the Thermal Clip System.

I've suggested a bunch of ideas in other threads about Thermal Clips, and there certainly are a few tweaks that will make having limited number of shots an after thought. I wonder if anything is in the works.

[rabidhanar]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

They do? I remember permanent ones that regenerate in the environment, but those enemies dropping, I can't remember off hand.

Yes they do. While it is not that noticable due to the regenerating supplies, husks do indeed drop ammo packs. Most Noticably when Shepard is low on ammo with the low firing weapons (shotgun, sniper). The first time I saw it I laughed.  Thermal Clips come out of their waists, right where they split into two if u shoot them in half.
Mech Dogs also drop clips in a similar way, from the area between their heads and their bodies.

Modifié par rabidhanar, 14 juillet 2011 - 02:18 .

[The Spamming Troll]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Which can be explained by Jessie being at least 30 year old technology. It preceeded the magic fire infinite guns in ME1 and likely is more akin to todays assault weapons.

so having an infinite amount of thermal clips is more acceptable to you then an infinite amount of bullets?

i think its weird your thinking a sci fi game akin to star wars, should be using similar weapons to todays footsoldiers. litterally, todays weapons should be like bows and aaros compared to future weaponry. the saying in the future is "dont bring a 6 shooter to a melt-your-face-off gun party."

[Praetor Knight]

rabidhanar wrote...

Yes they do. While it is not that noticable due to the regenerating supplies, husks do indeed drop ammo packs. Most Noticably when Shepard is low on ammo with the low firing weapons (shotgun, sniper). The first time I saw it I laughed.  Thermal Clips come out of their waists, right where they split into two if u shoot them in half.

I gotta pay more attention to them.

[Homebound]

Jorina Leto wrote...

Inutaisho7996 wrote...

Kakistos_ wrote...

Agreed. I wouldn't find Thermal Clips so distasteful if there was a decent explanation for their use.

It was long thought that personal weapons had plateaued in
performance, but the geth proved all theories wrong. Mathematically
reviewing their combat logs, the geth found that in an age of kinetic
barriers, most firefights were won by the side who could put the most
rounds down-range the fastest. But combatants were forced to
deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat, or pause as their
weapons vented.
To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat
sinks known as thermal clips. While organic arms manufacturers were
initially doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier
can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior
enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead, and
today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips.

 From the Codex.

This codex entry does not explain why the crew of the Hugo Gernsback have them.
And it's stil doesn't explain why there is no automatic weapon cooling anymore.

replaced HEAT SINKS with THERMAL CLIPS.

[MonkeyKaboom]

Ugh...How many times are you all going to **** about this?  The only problem is that the decided to call them thermal clips instead of ammo.  Ammo was long in the codex.  ME universe still uses ammo.  Honestly, they should make you manage both.