MonkeyKaboom wrote...
Ugh...How many times are you all going to **** about this? The only problem is that the decided to call them thermal clips instead of ammo. Ammo was long in the codex. ME universe still uses ammo. Honestly, they should make you manage both.
Praetor Shepard wrote...
MonkeyKaboom wrote...
Ugh...How many times are you all going to **** about this? The only problem is that the decided to call them thermal clips instead of ammo. Ammo was long in the codex. ME universe still uses ammo. Honestly, they should make you manage both.
Now that would be interesting.
The Spamming Troll wrote...
InvincibleHero wrote...
Which can be explained by Jessie being at least 30 year old technology. It preceeded the magic fire infinite guns in ME1 and likely is more akin to todays assault weapons.
so having an infinite amount of thermal clips is more acceptable to you then an infinite amount of bullets?
i think its weird your thinking a sci fi game akin to star wars, should be using similar weapons to todays footsoldiers. litterally, todays weapons should be like bows and aaros compared to future weaponry. the saying in the future is "dont bring a 6 shooter to a melt-your-face-off gun party."
MonkeyKaboom wrote...
In real life if you shoot too fast your firing mechanisms can fuse. Your gun could fire without even pulling the trigger causing a runaway gun until ammo was expired. Your barrels could warp and slow projectile expulsion even so much so that in high rate of fire weapons the projectiles could collide inside the barrel (this can also happen if you have too much carbon build-up). In real life you sometimes have to swap the barrels to allow them to cool, even in a firefight. All the while you still had to manage ammo. I totally think we should have to manage both.
Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 14 juillet 2011 - 03:12 .
Or you can just pick the viper and have distupture ammo on. As much as say the inflitator clss is limited, the class has multiple way to work around the widows limit...like pick another gun. The widow itself is just a more managable heavy weapon...It was made to take out tanks. As I said before ...giving the widow anymore ammo that it had would overpower the gun. The old system would make the use count limitless.The Spamming Troll wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
You don't play alot of shooters don't you? Sniper rifle have alway been overpoweredand if one had one with no ammo limit, the game would be too easy...in any game. The only wayaround this would be to have more snipers to fight or enemies with stronger defence.....but the just inflates the length of the game. And the widow is only avalible to Solders and Infiltrators, both classes with many ways to fight. So what it I have 11 shots in my widow, I can sneak up with may other guns and freeze my enemies.The Spamming Troll wrote...
i couldnt care less about lore. i dont know why more people arent as dissapointed with TCs as some of the rest of us not just becasu its inconsistant withthe lore. the easiest most basic ammo system ever created is TCs. to me, that doesnt show great development. its pathetic to me......i mean they have to estrict ammo counts like giving the infiltrator 11 shots, just because the game is soo easy they have to challenege us by severly limiting our ammo counts.
enemy protections, and 11 shots, thats biowares idea of creating challenge.
i could do better.
did i propose limitless ammo somewhere? i understand limits, but the point is that ME2s combat needs to give a sniper centric class 11 shots in order for their to be balance. i dont have a problem with limitations but creating a game that HAS TO limit me that much, is a pretty poorly designed game, isnt it?
fallout3 is a good example of a shooter/rpg hybrid and it basically has limitless ammo. whtever that means.
But the guns in ME2 do have more power. All guns at base do extra damage on defence with no mods....In ME1, you had to have mods on the guns to do that.Sgt Stryker wrote...
Siansonea II wrote...
Thermal clips aren't a retcon per se, but just-awakened Shepard knowing what a thermal clip is, that's stretching it. And the fact that the weapons from the Hugo Gernsback use thermal clips is laughable, since it's a ship that's been marooned on Aiea for ten years.
Well, we know that ME weapons have on-board computers. Perhaps they have a display that shows an error message when the weapon can't fire (no thermal clip loaded would be one of those conditions where the weapon can't fire). Shepard simply read off what the computer was displaying.
As for Aiea, you got me there, honestly.Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
They could fix the thermal clip option by saying the original method didn't provide enough damage to the new technology that 2 years introduced. The thermal clips may be lower on ammo (and not infinite anymore)... but provide the stopping power necessary against the new armors and biotic upgrades of the day.
That wouldn't work though, because thermal clips are *not* a power or ammunition source. They are detachable heat sinks, that is all. Oh, and who said the weapons described in ME1's lore have truly infinite ammo?
A hybid system would not work because it deture the power of the gun. The heat sink limit was only their to make sure the gun does not get damage and the heat sink limits at a tempature that it can easily cooldown on. In ME1, the gun that did more damage had a slower cooldown time. ME2 guns don't have cooling down clips because they made to focus on damage and just switch out the heat clip with a new one. You can max out the damage as much as you want as long as it's not too much for the gun to handle. Like the Widow and Claymore, if the heat sink over heats in one shot, just change the clip.ODST 5723 wrote...
Jorina Leto wrote...
What would you prefer? Just waiting and you can use your gun again or running out of "ammo" and never fire again.BlahDog wrote...
Kakistos_ wrote...
Agreed. I wouldn't find Thermal Clips so distasteful if there was a decent explanation for their use. And Ammo Powers are not a skill. I think they should have been integrated into the new modding system.
A decent explanation is this: if you are a normal soldier (not shepard, a normal feild soldier) would you prefer a long cooldown or a quick reload. Also if ammo powers were there what would the soldier have as his powers. I agree that an ammo mod would be nice but the soldier would be left with next to nothing.
And the way the thermal clips work dosen't make sense. Only a hybrid system would make sense.
You're taking a gameplay convention and propping it up as lore. It was lore that to avoid overheating the rate of fire that existed within the universe of the game had to be slower. What you saw in the gameplay were fire rates that would produce so much heat that that it would take a significant amount of time for that to cool down again.
Don't confuse what you saw in the gameplay with the fire rates on those weapons as being part of hte reality of the universe. Also, don't look at the cooldown time in ME1 as being idicative of how it really worked. That's there for a gameplay convention.
What you need to be looking at is, what they stated about the thermal clips. They allowed the geth to fire their weapons more efficiently and more effectively by fundamentally changing the way the weapons handled their heat issues. The ejectible heat sinks allow for weapons to put way more bullets into play in a much shorter amount of time and without putting the weapon into an overheat scenario.
While you might not feel that way becuase the gameplay in ME1 was broken and allowed for you to rig weapons to never overheat, that's not how it played out in the lore.
A hybrid system makes more sense from a gameplay perspective. Passive cooling isn't really a viable option in the ME universe. Not with the speeds at which the bullets are flying. That kind of heat generation would under sustainted fire would be an incredible stressor on the weapon.
Your argument here is basically the same as asking why a energy sword can be blocked with a rifle in Halo. In reality, that plasma blade is going to cut through an arm, armor or a weapon like a hot knife through butter. The lore there is pretty clear, yet the gameplay may show otherwise.
It's easy to confuse the two
Sgt Stryker wrote...
That wouldn't work though, because thermal clips are *not* a power or ammunition source. They are detachable heat sinks, that is all. Oh, and who said the weapons described in ME1's lore have truly infinite ammo?
dreman9999 wrote...
But the guns in ME2 do have more power. All guns at base do extra damage on defence with no mods....In ME1, you had to have mods on the guns to do that.
The ME2 do have more power than ME1 guns.
Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 14 juillet 2011 - 04:51 .
InvincibleHero wrote...
The Spamming Troll wrote...
InvincibleHero wrote...
Which can be explained by Jessie being at least 30 year old technology. It preceeded the magic fire infinite guns in ME1 and likely is more akin to todays assault weapons.
so having an infinite amount of thermal clips is more acceptable to you then an infinite amount of bullets?
i think its weird your thinking a sci fi game akin to star wars, should be using similar weapons to todays footsoldiers. litterally, todays weapons should be like bows and aaros compared to future weaponry. the saying in the future is "dont bring a 6 shooter to a melt-your-face-off gun party."
How are TCs infinite? I never said that and the game never reinforces it. In fact, picking up just one gives you way more shots than it should. I only ever see a handful and drops are not so plentiful. It is a gameplay mechanic and people blow it out of proportion.
I said more like than unlike. it doesn't mean they are bows and arrows to guns chasm. Though in a fight of experienced bowman vs. untrained poerson with gun I'd lay my money on the bowman. In fact, other than a mass effect field allowing faster projectiles they seem to operate on the same principle. Blocks of ammo were never meant to be infinite, but BW made it that way in ME1 for gameplay reasons. It is their right to make changes. I preferred 2 because being sabotaged or having to constantly bunker down or take more hits to lower rate of fire to control heat seemed counter-intuitive to survival or getting things done. It made combats too long and boring especially with immunity spam.
The Cain makes any gun irrelevant but you still have to use them. Most power doesn't always mean most utility.
Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 14 juillet 2011 - 11:32 .
dreman9999 wrote...
Or you can just pick the viper and have distupture ammo on. As much as say the inflitator clss is limited, the class has multiple way to work around the widows limit...like pick another gun. The widow itself is just a more managable heavy weapon...It was made to take out tanks. As I said before ...giving the widow anymore ammo that it had would overpower the gun. The old system would make the use count limitless.The Spamming Troll wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
You don't play alot of shooters don't you? Sniper rifle have alway been overpoweredand if one had one with no ammo limit, the game would be too easy...in any game. The only wayaround this would be to have more snipers to fight or enemies with stronger defence.....but the just inflates the length of the game. And the widow is only avalible to Solders and Infiltrators, both classes with many ways to fight. So what it I have 11 shots in my widow, I can sneak up with may other guns and freeze my enemies.The Spamming Troll wrote...
i couldnt care less about lore. i dont know why more people arent as dissapointed with TCs as some of the rest of us not just becasu its inconsistant withthe lore. the easiest most basic ammo system ever created is TCs. to me, that doesnt show great development. its pathetic to me......i mean they have to estrict ammo counts like giving the infiltrator 11 shots, just because the game is soo easy they have to challenege us by severly limiting our ammo counts.
enemy protections, and 11 shots, thats biowares idea of creating challenge.
i could do better.
did i propose limitless ammo somewhere? i understand limits, but the point is that ME2s combat needs to give a sniper centric class 11 shots in order for their to be balance. i dont have a problem with limitations but creating a game that HAS TO limit me that much, is a pretty poorly designed game, isnt it?
fallout3 is a good example of a shooter/rpg hybrid and it basically has limitless ammo. whtever that means.
This is your opinion. Myself and many others disagree with you. I think that gameplay is just as important as lore and that they should work together to create a richer experience. When gameplay contradicts lore I just think: Why go through the trouble of hiring writers to create it in the firstplace. Their work is just as important as the developers. The writers that create the worlds we immerse ourselves in are underappreaciated.Shimmer_Gloom wrote...
Has anyone mentioned that this is a game? All mediums are bound by different rules.
You see the same problem in Historical Fiction. Or historical films in specific. Take The Messenger (a Joan of Arc movie staring Mila Jovovich). It is incredibly historically accurate. And it is a great movie. But it is always a MOVIE before it is a historical representation. Some times the movie DELIBERATELY disregards history to make for better movie making.
Case in point: in the movie Jeanne's sister is raped in front of her eyes. There is absolutely no historical documents (Joan of Arc is a well documented character mind you) to suggest anything even remotely like that happening. The filmmakers know this. But they put it in the movie as a narrative short hand. Joan emphasizes with the brutality of the times and we emphasize with her all in one moment.
Movie>historical fact.
Thus. Mass Effect is a GAME. First and foremost. The devs took gameplay considerations over lore considerations. They do this constantly. This is a good thing.
Gameplay>lore. Always. Always, always. Do heat sinks create a lore problem? Yes. Is that important? Not as important as gameplay. Now, are heatsinks a gameplay problem? This is the question.
Kakistos_ wrote...
What do you think of the re-vamp of the Krogan Genophage? In ME1 it was said to kill unborn Krogan young and in ME2 it is said to reduce Krogan fertility.
Inutaisho7996 wrote...
Kakistos_ wrote...
Agreed. I wouldn't find Thermal Clips so distasteful if there was a decent explanation for their use.It was long thought that personal weapons had plateaued in
performance, but the geth proved all theories wrong. Mathematically
reviewing their combat logs, the geth found that in an age of kinetic
barriers, most firefights were won by the side who could put the most
rounds down-range the fastest. But combatants were forced to
deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat, or pause as their
weapons vented.
To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat
sinks known as thermal clips. While organic arms manufacturers were
initially doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier
can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior
enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead, and
today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips.
From the Codex.
Nice points. The Quarians could have been handled a different way. I would have accepted something along the lines of the Quarians not trusting the Cerberus associated Shepard and his/her questionable comrades and assigning a special ship for the hearing, not wanting to endanger the entire fleet in case of foul play. Something reasonable like that.Raxxman wrote...
Basically this depends on how Krogan repoduce, it sounds like they produce a clutch of eggs, which are then incubated and grown. It sounds like the genophage stops the majority of these eggs from ever hatching essentially stillborn.
It's got nothing on the Quarians being immune deficient in ME1 to the complete immuno-nonsensical mess that they are in ME2.
If you were alergic to everything the last thing you'd want to do is pump antibiotics into yourself because antibiotics regularly trigger alergic reactions (and seeing how the Quarians are allergic to everything), you'd be killing yourself...
Quarians simply wouldn't be able to eat either (especially not bar nuts they have dotted around) as nothing is 100% pure and would contain fatal contaminants.
ME1 made sense(ish) scientifically speaking, ME2 is so laughably terribly executed in this respect.
All to keep the apperance of Quarians hidden. Well that's my take on it, it's suggested in ME1 (but never specifically stated) that Quarians didn't use their suits on their own ships. References to things like how Talis mother died (dodgy air filter on the ship, not her suit) lend weight, and the concept of immuno deficiency kinda works.
I really do dispare to how much of a mess the Quarian lore is in.
Truly. It is not that they became more powerful and well funded, it's that it just kinda happened with no explanation. Their transformation and past are just too big to write off. Regardless it seems we will be facing them in ME3. I wonder if any of this will even be acknowledged in the codex or even by Shepard who in one backstory was personally victimized by them.JonathonPR wrote...
It is odd how rapidly Cerberus increases in power over a short period. I get the feeling that it did not grow so much as take over organizations larger than itself. Larger secret organizations that actively incorporated themselves under Cerberus.
Limited defense of their bases in 1. I guess the Lazerus project could have used the data from the experaments in 1. In 2 we only see a few major bases. In what I have seen so far they are fully capable of fielding a decent military force other than mechs the rest of the galaxy uses. I wonder if they bought Pinnacle station?
Kakistos_ wrote...
What do you think of the re-vamp of the Krogan Genophage? In ME1 it was said to kill unborn Krogan young and in ME2 it is said to reduce Krogan fertility.
Kakistos_ wrote...
How do you feel about the Cerberus issue? In ME1 they were a small organization that went rouge from the Alliance, In ME2 there is no connection to Cerberus and the Alliance or Shepard's past. In ME3 it seems that they will have become Indoctrinated. What do you think of the jump between ME1 and 2 and how it will effect 3?
I don't see how you don't see this as a retcon. Certain aspects of Cerberus' identity are completely changed or outright ignored if not erased. Their origin, subsequent beefing up, and personal relationship with Shepard are all altered or written out.CrazyCatDude wrote...
Kakistos_ wrote...
How do you feel about the Cerberus issue? In ME1 they were a small organization that went rouge from the Alliance, In ME2 there is no connection to Cerberus and the Alliance or Shepard's past. In ME3 it seems that they will have become Indoctrinated. What do you think of the jump between ME1 and 2 and how it will effect 3?
I don't see this as a retcon, I see this as a case of unreliable narrator. We don't see Cerberus from a purely objective point of view in Mass Effect 1 or in Mass Effect 2. In Mass Effect 1, almost everything we know about Cerberus, we know from Read Admiral Kahoku, who may not have the best intel on the group. In Mass Effect 2, everything we hear about Cerberus, we hear from TMI, who has plenty of reason to lie, from Miranda, Jack, Tali and Jacob, all of whom have, all of whom have highly biased views, and from the Normandy crew, who were specifically recruited and handled in such a way as to give Shepard the rosiest posible view of Cerberus.
In short, we see Cerberus in the game from Shepard's point of view, and Shepard doesn't always have the clearest picture of what's going on, which, as I mentioned earlier, is a storytelling technique called "unreliable narrator"
http://en.wikipedia....liable_narrator
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