239 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

Reciever80 wrote...

Inutaisho7996 wrote...

Kakistos_ wrote...

Agreed. I wouldn't find Thermal Clips so distasteful if there was a decent explanation for their use.

It was long thought that personal weapons had plateaued in
performance, but the geth proved all theories wrong. Mathematically
reviewing their combat logs, the geth found that in an age of kinetic
barriers, most firefights were won by the side who could put the most
rounds down-range the fastest. But combatants were forced to
deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat, or pause as their
weapons vented.
To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat
sinks known as thermal clips. While organic arms manufacturers were
initially doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier
can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior
enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead, and
today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips.

 From the Codex.

/discussion on thermal clips

with the issues that

1: According to codex trained soldiers reload their weapons in under 1 second and shepard does not. The fastest reload time is 1.5s and that is more than what a Spectre grade shotgun or Assault rifle would require to cool off from near maximum overheat thus gaining thermal clips operated weapons nothing.

2: Ask ANY soldier if he would rather have a weapon that can fire indefinitely as long as they do not use it as a hose all the time OR a weapon that they can use as a spray and pray hose BUT once you are out of thermal clips becomes virtually useless in spite of how much ammo you have left in the mag. This issue is especially glaring when it comes to sniper rifles and the role of snipers in general on the battlefield.

Thermal clips are ridiculous. Bioware devs said more than once that they implemented them to make ME2 more like a shooter and add tension which could have been very well achieved with an active cooldown system ala GoW troika without crapping on the lore for the sake of "reloading".

Modifié par crimzontearz, 07 août 2011 - 03:32 .

[Fhaileas]

crimzontearz wrote...

Reciever80 wrote...

Inutaisho7996 wrote...

Kakistos_ wrote...

Agreed. I wouldn't find Thermal Clips so distasteful if there was a decent explanation for their use.

It was long thought that personal weapons had plateaued in
performance, but the geth proved all theories wrong. Mathematically
reviewing their combat logs, the geth found that in an age of kinetic
barriers, most firefights were won by the side who could put the most
rounds down-range the fastest. But combatants were forced to
deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat, or pause as their
weapons vented.
To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat
sinks known as thermal clips. While organic arms manufacturers were
initially doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier
can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior
enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead, and
today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips.

 From the Codex.

/discussion on thermal clips

with the issues that

1: According to codex trained soldiers reload their weapons in under 1 second and shepard does not. The fastest reload time is 1.5s and that is more than what a Spectre grade shotgun or Assault rifle would require to cool off from near maximum overheat thus gaining thermal clips operated weapons nothing.

2: Ask ANY soldier if he would rather have a weapon that can fire indefinitely as long as they do not use it as a hose all the time OR a weapon that they can use as a spray and pray hose BUT once you are out of thermal clips becomes virtually useless in spite of how much ammo you have left in the mag. This issue is especially glaring when it comes to sniper rifles and the role of snipers in general on the battlefield.

Thermal clips are ridiculous. Bioware devs said more than once that they implemented them to make ME2 more like a shooter and add tension which could have been very well achieved with an active cooldown system ala GoW troika without crapping on the lore for the sake of "reloading".

/discussion on thermal clips

[The Spamming Troll]

its hard for me to read the codex thing with out laughing and raging. i wonder if the dude who writes the codex was thinking "wellp, this isnt going to work with our fans."

".....oh well, deal with it."

[ODST 5723]

crimzontearz wrote...
with the issues that

1: According to codex trained soldiers reload their weapons in under 1 second and shepard does not. The fastest reload time is 1.5s and that is more than what a Spectre grade shotgun or Assault rifle would require to cool off from near maximum overheat thus gaining thermal clips operated weapons nothing.

2: Ask ANY soldier if he would rather have a weapon that can fire indefinitely as long as they do not use it as a hose all the time OR a weapon that they can use as a spray and pray hose BUT once you are out of thermal clips becomes virtually useless in spite of how much ammo you have left in the mag. This issue is especially glaring when it comes to sniper rifles and the role of snipers in general on the battlefield.

Thermal clips are ridiculous. Bioware devs said more than once that they implemented them to make ME2 more like a shooter and add tension which could have been very well achieved with an active cooldown system ala GoW troika without crapping on the lore for the sake of "reloading".

1) You're quoting lore vs. gameplay.  Gameplay wins that one in terms of presentation, while in reality Shepard will be reloading more in-line with lore.You're also focusing the ME1 concept of stats as the progression in armor and weapon stats over the course of the game was for gameplay purposes and not for lore.  In that regard you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

2) I know soldiers and they want a weapon that's reliable.  The issue with thermal clips isn't ammo.  It's heat.  And while it might operate like ammo in the gameplay, that's not how it plays in the lore.  Just like the ME1 concept of shooting doesn't operate like it does in the lore, either.

You may want active cooling, but let's be honest, the amount of heat that needs to dissipate from sustained fire of projectiles at that kind of velocity is quite intense and would trash any weapon we currently utilize today.  Active cooling of that kind of heat would take a significant amount of time, not the unrealistic wait time we saw in ME1.

In the ME universe, soldiers were taught to fire slower on purpose to proactively avoid overheat scenarios.  This isn't represented in the gameplay, and the active cooling system isn't a 1:1 scenario.  It's a gameplay mechanic that wasn't well implemented.  Thermal clips were significantly better in terms of the flow of battle, and the only real tweak that it needed was for standard clips to forms a standard pool for all weapons rather than separate pools for each gun.  Once you overheated that gun, it would be dangerous to continue to operate until it cooled down, providing that the overheat didn't cause any damage to the weapon.  You'd also have to worry about any cooling system and its impact on the weapon as well.  Thus, the ME1 system was not only crap from a gameplay perspective, but unrealistic within the lore of the ME universe.  Again, the goal is the most reliable weapon and the thermal clip system, in lore, is stated to permit soldiers to put more rounds downfield reliably w/out fear of overheat.

A hybrid system would make the most sense from a gameplay perspective, but I'm sure people would find ways to whine about that too.  Both systems have their proponents and detractors and no one system will please everyone. 

Modifié par ODST 5723, 07 août 2011 - 06:15 .

[The Spamming Troll]

ODST 5723 wrote..

A hybrid system would make the most sense from a gameplay perspective, but I'm sure people would find ways to whine about that too.  Both systems have their proponents and detractors and no one system will please everyone. 

thats why they should ONLY bring back the pistol from ME1, and simply leave it as the iconic sidearm of ME3. i dont even need mods, just give me the spectre pistol. completely eliminating overheating weapons went a little too far.

[CrazyCatDude]

Kakistos_ wrote...

CrazyCatDude wrote...

Kakistos_ wrote...

How do you feel about the Cerberus issue? In ME1 they were a small organization that went rouge from the Alliance, In ME2 there is no connection to Cerberus and the Alliance or Shepard's past. In ME3 it seems that they will have become Indoctrinated. What do you think of the jump between ME1 and 2 and how it will effect 3?

I don't see this as a retcon, I see this as a case of unreliable narrator.  We don't see Cerberus from a purely objective point of view in Mass Effect 1 or in Mass Effect 2.  In Mass Effect 1, almost everything we know about Cerberus, we know from Read Admiral Kahoku, who may not have the best intel on the group.  In Mass Effect 2, everything we hear about Cerberus, we hear from TMI, who has plenty of reason to lie, from Miranda, Jack, Tali and Jacob, all of whom have, all of whom have highly biased views, and from the Normandy crew, who were specifically recruited and handled in such a way as to give Shepard the rosiest posible view of Cerberus.

In short, we see Cerberus in the game from Shepard's point of view, and Shepard doesn't always have the clearest picture of what's going on, which, as I mentioned earlier, is a storytelling technique called "unreliable narrator"

http://en.wikipedia....liable_narrator

I don't see how you don't see this as a retcon. Certain aspects of Cerberus' identity are completely changed or outright ignored if not erased. Their origin, subsequent beefing up, and personal relationship with Shepard are all altered or written out.

Read what I said about the Unreliable Narrator.  We see things from Shepard's prospective.  Shepard doesn't always have the most reliable intel.

[Kakistos_]

CrazyCatDude wrote...
Read what I said about the Unreliable Narrator.  We see things from Shepard's prospective.  Shepard doesn't always have the most reliable intel.

You may have a point but that doesn't change the fact that there are certain esatblished aspects of Cerberus that are ignored. For one, one of Shepard's backgrounds had a personal experiance with one of Cerberus' experiments but this is completely never mentioned in ME2.

[Boiny Bunny]

If you want to talk about realism, let's consider this:

At the start of ME1, Shepard should have died immediately after being hit 3 or so times by a Geth drone (like Jenkins was). I actually couldn't believe how ridiculous the contrast between his death scene and the gameplay that immediately followed was. Jenkins gets hit 3 times and dies immediately. Shepard? 400 times, meh. Regenerates too. Mmm...realism...

[The Spamming Troll]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

If you want to talk about realism, let's consider this:

At the start of ME1, Shepard should have died immediately after being hit 3 or so times by a Geth drone (like Jenkins was). I actually couldn't believe how ridiculous the contrast between his death scene and the gameplay that immediately followed was. Jenkins gets hit 3 times and dies immediately. Shepard? 400 times, meh. Regenerates too. Mmm...realism...

i agree. i remember literally feeling shocked. "look oh crap, im going to die fast in this game!" but then i basically became the best adept player in the world after that. but i think that nobody cares about jenkins. or maybe jenkins is the key to beating the reapers, and bioware just wants to say "nope, hes the first person that died in the series, too bad, go play gears." just another one of my theories.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 10 août 2011 - 11:32 .

[Weiser_Cain]

[quote]Inutaisho7996 wrote...

[quote]Kakistos_ wrote...

Agreed. I wouldn't find Thermal Clips so distasteful if there was a decent explanation for their use.[/quote]

[quote]*snip*

[/quote]
Running out of ammo mid-fight is suicide, smaller arms don't need rapid-fire anyway.

Modifié par Weiser_Cain, 10 août 2011 - 11:51 .

[Sgt Stryker]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

If you want to talk about realism, let's consider this:

At the start of ME1, Shepard should have died immediately after being hit 3 or so times by a Geth drone (like Jenkins was). I actually couldn't believe how ridiculous the contrast between his death scene and the gameplay that immediately followed was. Jenkins gets hit 3 times and dies immediately. Shepard? 400 times, meh. Regenerates too. Mmm...realism...

Gameplay/story segregation. Shepard can take so many hits from a geth drone in gameplay for the same reason that it takes several seconds of real time to travel to another star system, as opposed to several days according to the lore.

[Kakistos_]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

If you want to talk about realism, let's consider this:

At the start of ME1, Shepard should have died immediately after being hit 3 or so times by a Geth drone (like Jenkins was). I actually couldn't believe how ridiculous the contrast between his death scene and the gameplay that immediately followed was. Jenkins gets hit 3 times and dies immediately. Shepard? 400 times, meh. Regenerates too. Mmm...realism...

Gameplay/story segregation. Shepard can take so many hits from a geth drone in gameplay for the same reason that it takes several seconds of real time to travel to another star system, as opposed to several days according to the lore.

Yes, with any game there is a certain suspention of belief. Like aliens for example and Element Zero. This suspention however should be taken more seriously in a sci fi setting in contrast to a fantasy setting.

[Kakistos_]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

its hard for me to read the codex thing with out laughing and raging. i wonder if the dude who writes the codex was thinking "wellp, this isnt going to work with our fans."

".....oh well, deal with it."

Truly. I hope they put in more consideration for ME3. I find instances like this insulting and I think many other fans would agree with me.

[Arkitekt]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

In gameplay-land, we're limited to thermal clips that never cool down on their own (violating thermodynamics, but that's another story), because that's what Bioware gave us in the form of the game engine.

What? 2nd law?

Man you are so out of your league it isn't funny.

[ODST 5723]

NVM

Modifié par ODST 5723, 23 décembre 2011 - 06:22 .

[Sgt Stryker]

Arkitekt wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

In gameplay-land, we're limited to thermal clips that never cool down on their own (violating thermodynamics, but that's another story), because that's what Bioware gave us in the form of the game engine.

What? 2nd law?

Man you are so out of your league it isn't funny.

omg hella rude tbh

[Someone With Mass]

Was it really necessary to necro this old fart?

[Sgt Stryker]

I dunno. Ask Kakistos_

[The Spamming Troll]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Was it really necessary to necro this old fart?

well, my posts are just THAT GOOD!

[mybudgee]

Brains!... Want to eat brainsss...arrrrghhhhh!!!

oh & Jenkins was just a super-wuss. Explained.

Modifié par mybudgee, 24 décembre 2011 - 09:14 .

[armass]

I never found the ammo retcon such a big deal, im not sure why people make it so. It's goddamn ammo, so what if they changed it a bit. Is it really worth this much of a fuss?

Modifié par armass, 24 décembre 2011 - 09:54 .

[The Spamming Troll]

armass wrote...

I never found the ammo retcon such a big deal, im not sure why people make it so. It's goddamn ammo, so what if they changed it a bit. Is it really worth this much of a fuss?

uuuuhhh........?

read the 8 pages of this thread then!

and all the other TC threads that pop up bi-weekly might give you an idea as well.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 24 décembre 2011 - 04:41 .

[naledgeborn]

This a very important one: Cerberus.

ME1: Systems Alliance Black-Ops Splinter Cell
ME2: Autonomous Paramilitary Extremists
ME3: Terrorists

Which is it?

[armass]

naledgeborn wrote...

This a very important one: Cerberus.

ME1: Systems Alliance Black-Ops Splinter Cell
ME2: Autonomous Paramilitary Extremists
ME3: Terrorists

Which is it?

All of them?