39 réponses à ce sujet

[-Severian-]

Hey all,

So with all the epicness rolling out of E3 right now, we've all go plenty to discuss. However, I was thinking about a possibility here and just wanted to see what everyone thought.

The ME series has always shot for emotional impact - writing seems to be very, very professionally done and they twist things pretty well. Shepard has spent a lot of time making personal decisions for his team members, particularly around the concept of betrayal: Maelon for Mordin's loyalty, Sidonis for Garrus' revenge, Jacob's father... even the Zaeed and Legion loyalty decisions could be argued to be a counter to betrayal. So, in ME3, would you want a squad member to betray you?

I think it would be the ultimate link to exactly what the Reaper invasion is going to cost you, partiuclarly if it was an LI (probably not, though, so as not to alienate the fans who chose that LI). Still, with indoctrination running rife, if the scene was well done it would be a real heartbreaker - after spending all that time getting to know them and help, imagine having to choose to kill Samara, Kasumi or Grunt face-to-face or leave them free to act under Reaper control. All that time counselling his squad members and it comes down to the wire: it's easy to make a call when it isn't personal to you, such a Maelon, but can Shep keep his/her morals in mind when it gets personal to him.

In his own words: "The lines between good and evil blur when we're looking at someone we know". Thoughts?

[J. Finley]

I wouldn't mind this, and if they did it right it could be a really heartbreaking and emotional scene. I could really see this happening with somebody like Samara if you were a Renegade, seeing as how she said she would try to kill you if you ran into her again.

[Oblivious]

You mean like Bastila, Wrex, and Morrigan? Like the old Bioware? So long as there were a way to avoid it or convince them otherwise then yea, they should do it.

[Raiil]

I doubt it would be with a squaddie, not after the epic s--tstorm that bloomed from DA2. However, there are certainly a number of non-crew NPCs that could fill the criteria. Show us who we're fighting for- for the child in the vents, the nice salarian merchant, Gianna, Emily Wong, the krogan scientist from Tuchanka- hell, Charr and his lady could fit that bill. There are plenty of periphial characters that could show us what's at stake.

[-Severian-]

True enough, though that would remove the morality of it - if she just came at you with a gun, since you know her code won't let her stop, you'd have to kill her.

[Garlador]

Would I like it to happen? No. Would it be effective? Absolutely.

I'm one of the types that wants a "perfect" ending, but I enjoy it when that perfection is unattainable. In ME1, I have to decide who lives or dies: Kaiden or Ashley. There is no "right" or "wrong" choice; whatever I decide, someone is going to die.

That said, it was an easy choice to make since Kaiden was bland as dirt and I was romancing Ashley.

But if Ashley wound up indoctrinated in the new game and I had to choose between killing her or saving a ship full of hundreds of civilians, I'd definitely hesitate. Could I? Would I? Is there no other outcome?

I loved ME2, but I will confess something I didn't like: it was possible to get the best of any situation. You could get everyone loyal. You could get everyone to survive. You could charm your way to a perfect run with no bad consequences, really. You can get Tali cleared of her charges AND keep her loyal and her father's secret safe. You could totally disagree with Mordin on the genophage and still keep his loyalty. You could cost Zaeed his long-sought revenge and he'd still be loyal.

I would have loved to make some genuine HARD choices. What if the only way to keep Zaeed loyal was to let innocent men burn to death? What if the only way to keep Tali loyal was to have her exiled from her people to protect her father? What if the only way to keep Mordin loyal was to agree the genophage was best for everyone? That would ensure the success of ME2... but in ME3, those decisions have bigger repercussions, with perhaps the Krogans rejecting your call to arms or the Quarians ignoring you for associating with a "traitor".

That won't be the case, but there's no reason ME3 can't have "hard" choices with no clear right or wrong path, a lose-lose situation that genuinely asks you what type of human being you are.

The only one that really compared was Legion's loyalty mission: do you kill millions of sentient creatures, or do you eradicate their free will, the very thing that makes them "alive"? Would you prefer to die for your beliefs or live ignorant that you had been stripped of your identity?

A betrayal would hurt, and it's very possible. Maybe your most loyal supporters, Captain Anderson, Garrus, Liara, get to a point where their ideology clashes with yours, or they wind up brainwashed or indoctrinated by the reapers and you have to deal with them, balancing the sacrifice of the few against the survival of the many, even if the "few" are friends and lovers.

Heavy stuff.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

As long as it isn't Garrus, Tali, or Ashley, I think I'll be okay.  Tragedy, if done right, can help make a story deeper.  But... these three are my buddies.

Modifié par Neverwinter_Knight77, 09 juin 2011 - 07:14 .

[Clonedzero]

as long as the squadmate betrayal is well done and MAKES SENSE. im cool with the idea.

if im playing 3/4ths of the game and everythings cool then suddenly garrus is like "bwhaha im working for the reapers suddenly LOL!" then ill be mad.

its basically about how they handle it more than the idea itself. i mean hell i'd be cool with it being ANY character as long as its well done and not sorta out of no where.

[Oblivious]

Valentia X wrote...

I doubt it would be with a squaddie, not after the epic s--tstorm that bloomed from DA2.

I must have missed that s--tstorm. Are you referring to a certain pirate or a certain mage? Because if it is the pirate then that is the player's own fault for not developing their relationship, if it is the mage then yea I understand the outrage. I'm hoping they do it like they used to, with Bastila and Wrex serving as the prime examples. I miss Bastila

[Bogsnot1]

To paraphrase Wrex;
Anyone who betrays me is either stupid, or on someones payroll. Killing the latter is business. Killing the former is doing the galaxy a favour.

[Clonedzero]

Valentia X wrote...

I doubt it would be with a squaddie, not after the epic s--tstorm that bloomed from DA2. However, there are certainly a number of non-crew NPCs that could fill the criteria. Show us who we're fighting for- for the child in the vents, the nice salarian merchant, Gianna, Emily Wong, the krogan scientist from Tuchanka- hell, Charr and his lady could fit that bill. There are plenty of periphial characters that could show us what's at stake.

i thought both betrayals in DA2 were really well done actually. i loved both of them despite the other faults of that game. the characters were great.

and hell if you couldnt see those things coming from talking to those characters you were blind.

[Raiil]

Clonedzero wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

I doubt it would be with a squaddie, not after the epic s--tstorm that bloomed from DA2. However, there are certainly a number of non-crew NPCs that could fill the criteria. Show us who we're fighting for- for the child in the vents, the nice salarian merchant, Gianna, Emily Wong, the krogan scientist from Tuchanka- hell, Charr and his lady could fit that bill. There are plenty of periphial characters that could show us what's at stake.

i thought both betrayals in DA2 were really well done actually. i loved both of them despite the other faults of that game. the characters were great.

and hell if you couldnt see those things coming from talking to those characters you were blind.

Oh, I'm not arguing the merit of the game or the decision to include the betrayals. I'm saying people got super-pissed at what happened and afaik, that's had considerable impact on reviews and sales. 

If they were to do this with a squaddie/former squaddie, it would most likely have to be with a non-LI one, so as to not send a part of the fanbase into a frothing rage (I would probably want to put my fist through my tv if Thane got indoctrinated, so I'm not being glib here). Plus losing those abilities might make people sort of mad.

If I wanted to go the 'safe' route and I was BioWare, I'd have Kelly or, for maximum emotional impact, Chakwas indoctrinated. Myself, personally, I'd blow Liara and Kaidan out the airlock without a second thought, but obviously I don't constitute the majority of opinions, either. Too many variables make it difficult to choose an actual squaddie; it makes more sense to use someone from the crew, since you can rotate through survivors.

Or, to make it even more interesting, indoctrinate James Vega.

[Flashlegend]

Or, to make it even more interesting, indoctrinate James Vega.

I think if they really wanted to do something with revenge then Vega would be perfect. Although, they would have to sucessfully get players emotionally attached to the character for greatest possible impact. But the fact he's new to us wouldn't leave anyone too furious that events unfolded as they did.

They could also just be like **** it and use someone from ME1 or ME2 but that would seriously ****** off certain fans.

With all that said, I actually doubt they could do something like this in an effective way.

Modifié par Flashlegend, 09 juin 2011 - 07:49 .

[Zeratul20]

Betrayal as a plotpoint has been used far too often, lately, to the point where it kind of feels forced. It's not just cliché, people tend to expect it to happen. I'd much prefer it if they simply focus on writing a good story, without forcing a betrayal in there "because every story needs an emotional plottwist".

[DAII - TEH SPOILERZ]




The only "decent" betrayal of late was the one performed by Anders in DA II. (The game had its flaws, but you can't deny that that was a decent plot twist.)



[/DAII - TEH SPOILERZ]

Modifié par Zeratul20, 10 juin 2011 - 08:49 .

[Flashlegend]

Zeratul20 wrote...

Betrayal as a plotpoint has been used far too often, lately, to the point where it kind of feels forced. It's not just cliché, people tend to expect it to happen. I'd much prefer it if they simply focus on writing a good story, without forcing a betrayal in there "because every story needs an emotional plottwist".

The only "decent" betrayal of late was the one performed by Anders in DA II. (The game had its flaws, but you can't deny that that was a decent plot twist.)

I'm pretty sure most of the time a decent plot twist doesn't require acting insane. You could definitely see change in Anders character as the game progress but his terrorist attack was just way over the top. Definitely don't want insane and illogical character choices all for the purpose of being a plot device in ME3.

Modifié par Flashlegend, 09 juin 2011 - 08:10 .

[Pedestrial]

Valentia X wrote...

Or, to make it even more interesting, indoctrinate James Vega.

Actually in a way that would be ideal, if his back story is built up and there is enough
character development through maybe 3/4s of the game then all those that are new
to the Mass Effect franchise will have some kind of affinity before the betrayal,
enough to have an impact and all those that have played through 1 and 2 won't
feel like they've just had an arm cut off.

Those that are new to Mass Effect won't have any connection to past characters
in the same way that we have and the betrayal wouldn't mean anything to them.

It seemed to me that Bioware is catering just as much to the newcomer as it is
to those dedicated Mass Effect fans, so that seems like a perfect solution.

[Bolboreta]

That's impossible, because almost everyone is a LI, so if one of them betrayed Shepard, or died, their fans would fill these forums with rage, yelling about how unfair it would be, the favoritism of Bioware to some characters...

It would be amazing, though. I really would like different developments from different characters: dramatic and heartbreaking deaths, betrayals, arguments. Also, a way to fix that, a very hard way: Bioware, please, make us work

[Zeratul20]

Flashlegend wrote...

Zeratul20 wrote...

Betrayal as a plotpoint has been used far too often, lately, to the point where it kind of feels forced. It's not just cliché, people tend to expect it to happen. I'd much prefer it if they simply focus on writing a good story, without forcing a betrayal in there "because every story needs an emotional plottwist".

[REDACTED]

I'm pretty sure most of the time a decent plot twist doesn't require acting insane. You could definitely see change in [REDACTED]'s character as the game progress but his terrorist attack was just way over the top. Definitely don't want insane and illogical character choices all for the purpose of being a plot device in ME3.

No, of course not. But I thought it was handled decently in that game. (The dialog surrounding the somewhat obvious betrayal, etc... I mainly didn't expect him to [REDACTED].) (Edit: down with spoilers!)
Silly [REDACTED]. You do, however, make a good point: it should've been possible to try and stop him/Justice.

Modifié par Zeratul20, 10 juin 2011 - 08:48 .

[Oblivious]

Bolboreta wrote...

That's impossible, because almost everyone is a LI, so if one of them betrayed Shepard, or died, their fans would fill these forums with rage, yelling about how unfair it would be, the favoritism of Bioware to some characters...

It would be amazing, though. I really would like different developments from different characters: dramatic and heartbreaking deaths, betrayals, arguments. Also, a way to fix that, a very hard way: Bioware, please, make us work

Bastila betrayed you if you were a good and Carth betrayed you if you were bad. Juhani and Jolee ganged up on you if you were bad. Mission and Zaalbar tried to run/kill you if you were bad. Wrex held a shotgun and would have shot u if you weren't persuasive or did his mission. Either Ashley or Kaidan (one of the only two LI in the game) are guaranteed to die in Virmire. Leliana and Wynne gang up on you if you desecrate Andraste's ashes. Zevran tries to kill you (again) if you didn't have enough friendship before his friend from the Crows shows up. Morrigan presents you with an ultimatum right before the final battle that can result in her leaving and never returning. Oghren, Shale, and Sten will even challenge you to the death if they hate you enough. Let us not forget the famous ME2 suicide mission either.

My point is these are Bioware games from 2003, 2007, 2009, 2010 respectively that did betrayal fantastically and nobody raged because
1) It made sense in the context of the story
2) You had a way of preventing the situation

What Anders did in DA2 neither made sense nor was there a chance to prevent it. They literally turned the character into a catalyst for an ending that didn't make sense whether you chose Templar or Mage. I'm fine with any LI or squadmember betraying me, and I suspect I am not the only one in this regard as long as Bioware sticks to those two rules. My own mother can order her ship to shoot me down and I'm fine with that as long as they stuck to those two points (though there better be one hell of a good reason for it;))

[Tripedius]

Could be interesting. On a recent playthrough of ME2 I considerd the fact that the VR Survivor could be the one to betray you. Think about it, he/she has been alone, frozen, with the collectors for some time, so they could have done lots of things to them without them knowing. Could be interesting.
Also Garrus asks you (if you don't kill Sidonis) want you would do if betrayed. So far Shep has not been betrayed by any one close to him (like the Asian guy from BG2) while his teammates have. So it would be quite possible that a betrayal is imminent.

[Bolboreta]

Oblivious wrote...
Bastila betrayed you if you were a good and Carth betrayed you if you were bad. Juhani and Jolee ganged up on you if you were bad. Mission and Zaalbar tried to run/kill you if you were bad. Wrex held a shotgun and would have shot u if you weren't persuasive or did his mission. Either Ashley or Kaidan (one of the only two LI in the game) are guaranteed to die in Virmire. Leliana and Wynne gang up on you if you desecrate Andraste's ashes. Zevran tries to kill you (again) if you didn't have enough friendship before his friend from the Crows shows up. Morrigan presents you with an ultimatum right before the final battle that can result in her leaving and never returning. Oghren, Shale, and Sten will even challenge you to the death if they hate you enough. Let us not forget the famous ME2 suicide mission either.

My point is these are Bioware games from 2003, 2007, 2009, 2010 respectively that did betrayal fantastically and nobody raged because
1) It made sense in the context of the story
2) You had a way of preventing the situation

What Anders did in DA2 neither made sense nor was there a chance to prevent it. They literally turned the character into a catalyst for an ending that didn't make sense whether you chose Templar or Mage. I'm fine with any LI or squadmember betraying me, and I suspect I am not the only one in this regard as long as Bioware sticks to those two rules. My own mother can order her ship to shoot me down and I'm fine with that as long as they stuck to those two points (though there better be one hell of a good reason for it;))

Yes, and I loved every single minute of all that, but seeing the forums nowadays makes me imagine a very different reaction. There are lots of complaining about favorite characters and I think Bioware guys are aware of that. If people is raging because "this one" or "this other one" is getting more dialogue or more significance, I don't want to imagine how they're going to react to a betrayal/death, specially if that's unavoidable. Maybe I'm a pessimistic 

[Oblivious]

Bolboreta wrote...
Maybe I'm a pessimistic 

Nah, I get what you mean. Gaming just isn't what it used to be and devs are trying to appeal to the lowest common denomitor:(