175 réponses à ce sujet

[Phaedon]

 I am sorry, but other than the fact than in ME2 not all classes could use them, I don't see the problem.

In fact, it allows for a more tactical style of playing, as you are able to switch your upgrades in realtime, in order to face an opponnent who responds differently to a specific type of ammo.

Moreover, you progress throughout the game, allowing you to choose whether you want to invest on them or not. 

[Insom]

It's just an ammo type. You should just pick up the ammo type in the level you're in and switch to it on the fly without it taking up a power spot. All classes should be able to use any ammo type.

[Phaedon]

Insom wrote...

It's just an ammo type. You should just pick up the ammo type in the level you're in and switch to it on the fly without it taking up a power spot. All classes should be able to use any ammo type.

What's the problem with taking up another power spot? It's one of the soldiers' powers.

[Waltzingbear]

All classes should also be able to use tech abilities- all you need to do is press that button. I don't see why those 'logical flaws' are a problem as they make gameplay better and don't really ruin anything unless you're excessively nitpicky.

A lot of the critique I saw was about the ammo powers being a cheap way to fill up the combat classes' powers.

I don't think it's really cheap or lazy only not very well implemented in ME2. The idea itself is good, but there were only very few times that I actually gained something from switching ammo powers mid-battle. It usually ends up with either you apply Disruptor or Inferno at the start of this or that mission and forget about it.
Powers or their effects just need to be redsigned.

[ShadowSplicer]

My personal problem with them was that they were ENTIRELY USELESS. So yeah, that might have something to do with it.

[Kasai666]

Because mods could potentially replace the ammo powers?

[Flashlegend]

My personal problem with them was that they were ENTIRELY USELESS. So yeah, that might have something to do with it.

This is just wrong.

A lot of the critique I saw was about the ammo powers being a cheap way to fill up the combat classes' powers.

This. I don't see what's wrong with giving all classes more REAL combat abilities(active or passive) and putting ammo powers where they should be.(weapon modding) There were plenty of great ideas in that other thread and really wouldn't be that hard to implement. Will it happen, probably not but we can all still complain about it.

[Pepper4]

I just wanna be able to activate a specific ammo power on all my guns with a single button.
It's the 22st century for god's sake!

[Phaedon]

Waltzingbear wrote...

All classes should also be able to use tech abilities- all you need to do is press that button. I don't see why those 'logical flaws' are a problem as they make gameplay better and don't really ruin anything unless you're excessively nitpicky.

A lot of the critique I saw was about the ammo powers being a cheap way to fill up the combat classes' powers.

I don't think it's really cheap or lazy only not very well implemented in ME2. The idea itself is good, but there were only very few times that I actually gained something from switching ammo powers mid-battle. It usually ends up with either you apply Disruptor or Inferno at the start of this or that mission and forget about it.
Powers or their effects just need to be redsigned.

I agree.

ShadowSplicer wrote...

My personal problem with them was that they were ENTIRELY USELESS. So yeah, that might have something to do with it.

Nope. You are probably not big on tactics with them.

[Bozorgmehr]

There is no point in switching ammo mid combat (it's counter-productive actually) - which makes the option to use them like a 'power' redundant.

I think ammo is great, but it should not be considered a 'power' - that's simply poor design.

I like ME combat b/c of the mix between shooting and using powers; ammo powers don't add or fit, and it's perhaps the main reason why the Soldier class is among the least liked classes (by players who have played with the other classes as well). Using one power, over and over again gets old pretty quickly (and not very ME like).

[CroGamer002]

ShadowSplicer wrote...

My personal problem with them was that they were ENTIRELY USELESS. So yeah, that might have something to do with it.

Only ammo power that is useless is Thane's loyalty power, unless you play on Veteran and lower.


Incendiary Ammo gives big bonus against armor and sets people on fire.

Disruptor Ammo is great against shields and synthetic enemies( Mechs and Geths) are annihilated even on Insanity by that power.

Cryo Ammo is good because it freezes targets so need to worry that elite hostile put up sheilds again while frozen and not able to finish him off.

Armor Piercing Ammo is armor piercing ammo.

Warp Ammo is great for both armor and barriers.

Modifié par Mesina2, 09 juin 2011 - 08:32 .

[Aimi]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Using one power, over and over again gets old pretty quickly (and not very ME like).

On the contrary: it's how the Soldier worked in ME1 and ME2. 

[Phaedon]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

There is no point in switching ammo mid combat (it's counter-productive actually) - which makes the option to use them like a 'power' redundant.

How so? Ammo powers gave me a huge tactical advantage in ME2. I think that a bad design choice is to have multiple enemies with different reactions to ammo in the same level, and still not have the ability to switch ammo types.

I like ME combat b/c of the mix between shooting and using powers; ammo powers don't add or fit, and it's perhaps the main reason why the Soldier class is among the least liked classes (by players who have played with the other classes as well). Using one power, over and over again gets old pretty quickly (and not very ME like).

Soldier is the most played class.

Modifié par Phaedon, 09 juin 2011 - 08:29 .

[Aimi]

Phaedon wrote...

Soldier is the most played class.

He's implicitly saying that people who know what they're doing - i.e. not the hoi polloi - don't like the way the Soldier works.

[ShadowSplicer]

Meh, never helped me at all, I didn't even see a difference. Then again, I've always been more of a Sentinel/Adept person.

[Uszi]

I am all for simplifying the UI to get rid of an extraneous "ammo type" layer by making Ammo types powers.

Otherwise I'll wind up playing The Witcher 2. *shudder*

[Phaedon]

daqs wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Soldier is the most played class.

He's implicitly saying that people who know what they're doing - i.e. not the hoi polloi - don't like the way the Soldier works.

Who exactly are those intellectuals? And why do they know what they are doing more than someone who just prefers to play the game in a different style? 

Modifié par Phaedon, 09 juin 2011 - 08:32 .

[Ieldra]

I dislike ammo powers because using ammo of a certain type is not a character ability. it's purely a matter of equipment. The ability to use a gun in the first place, that is a character ability. The ability to use an omnitool efficiently, too. But ammo is nothing but equipment - as long as it doesn't affect the handling of your gun character skill doesn't come into it. Different ammo types should be weapon mods, not powers.

[Phaedon]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I dislike ammo powers because using ammo of a certain type is not a character ability. it's purely a matter of equipment. The ability to use a gun in the first place, that is a character ability. The ability to use an omnitool efficiently, too. But ammo is nothing but equipment - as long as it doesn't affect the handling of your gun character skill doesn't come into it. Different ammo types should be weapon mods, not powers.

I am not talking about the exclusion of this power for some classes, I am talking about the use of them as powers in the first place. As I have said, that complaint is understandable.

[Bozorgmehr]

Phaedon wrote...

How so? Ammo powers gave me a huge tactical advantage in ME2. I think that a bad design choice is to have multiple enemies with different reactions to ammo in the same level, and still not have the ability to switch ammo types.

Can you give an example of a fight when switching ammo makes sense, or improves Shep's combat capabilities?

Soldier is the most played class.

Soldier is the default class. Most people play Soldier on their first playthrough, which has nothing to do with the fact that those who have played all classes like the Soldier least of all. Only those who have played all classes can say which one they liked best.

[Phaedon]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
Can you give an example of a fight when switching ammo makes sense, or improves Shep's combat capabilities?

Diruptor ammo for mechs for example, cryo ammo for husks and incendiary ammo for organics?

Soldier is the default class. Most people play Soldier on their first playthrough, which has nothing to do with the fact that those who have played all classes like the Soldier least of all. Only those who have played all classes can say which one they liked best.

All of the classes support a different kind of gameplay, and the Soldier one focuses on the shooter elements. What's the problem with that?

[Aimi]

Phaedon wrote...

Who exactly are those intellectuals? And why do they know what they are doing more than someone who just prefers to play the game in a different style? 

Why, the good denizens of the classes and strategy subforum, by dint of their ability to discuss such topics on as high a level as he, aided by a good dose of confirmation bias.

Although he is certainly right, more or less, that switching ammo powers is of dubious to low utility in mid-combat.  They're best switched between encounters, or, alternatively, different powers kept on different weapons for the duration of a given mission (I find that the sniper rifles work best with Disruptor Ammo - Warp Ammo on Collector missions and Samara's recruitment mission - and that assault rifles tend to work best with Incendiary Ammo).  

And if that's the case, then the Soldier is quite limited in terms of viable active power use.  Ideally, this would be offset by Soldiers employing their panoply of weapons to the utmost degree, but in practice, it is claimed, Soldiers tend to workhorse their sniper rifles and assault rifles, ignoring the shotgun, while the pistol, of course, is never touched at all.

I mean, this is all familiar and well-tread ground.  I honestly am not sure that the Soldier needs to operate with a bunch of active powers (presumably the other side of the coin of the "ammo powers suck!" argument), but it would be nice to try to get Soldiers to employ their full variety of weapons more, if they don't already.

Modifié par daqs, 09 juin 2011 - 08:48 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

The fact that you can't give incediary or disrupter ammo to an adept or vanguard because they are magical-soldier-only-powers (when they should obviously be a weapon MOD, because it is EQUIPMENT), is quite retarded.

I'm sure Bioware can think of something much better than ammo powers for exclusivity to soldiers.

[Bozorgmehr]

Phaedon wrote...

Diruptor ammo for mechs for example, cryo ammo for husks and incendiary ammo for organics?

Are you saying you've encountered an enemy squad with mechs, husks and organics in it?

I'm not saying ammo is useless; I'm saying switching ammo while you're in combat is useless.

All of the classes support a different kind of gameplay, and the Soldier one focuses on the shooter elements. What's the problem with that?

Different gameplay is great, it's one the cool things about ME's class system. But Soldier gameplay is shooting and shooting in slowmo - a bit poor for a game that claims to combine RPG-ish abilities with shooter mechanics imo. I would prefer a Soldier class with a couple more tricks on their sleeves beside ARush.

[Phaedon]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

The fact that you can't give incediary or disrupter ammo to an adept or vanguard because they are magical-soldier-only-powers (when they should obviously be a weapon MOD, because it is EQUIPMENT), is quite retarded.

I'm sure Bioware can think of something much better than ammo powers for exclusivity to soldiers.

Again, this is not our topic, we don't know how many ammo powers the other classes will have. Have ammo as mods and what you have is the inability to change them during combat.