175 réponses à ce sujet

[Aimi]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Different gameplay is great, it's one the cool things about ME's class system. But Soldier gameplay is shooting and shooting in slowmo - a bit poor for a game that claims to combine RPG-ish abilities with shooter mechanics imo. I would prefer a Soldier class with a couple more tricks on their sleeves beside ARush.

The tricks up a Soldier's sleeve are her other guns.  That's kind of the point of having four kinds of guns available to you.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Phaedon wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

The fact that you can't give incediary or disrupter ammo to an adept or vanguard because they are magical-soldier-only-powers (when they should obviously be a weapon MOD, because it is EQUIPMENT), is quite retarded.

I'm sure Bioware can think of something much better than ammo powers for exclusivity to soldiers.

Again, this is not our topic, we don't know how many ammo powers the other classes will have. Have ammo as mods and what you have is the inability to change them during combat.

Okay, well if there is in fact an equality of ammo power use among the classes, and one wants to use different ammo in different situations, do you know how many potential power slots would be taken up? It's be a complete waste of space; just because you want to use varying types of ammo in varying situations, you are punished because you must spend points on these when they could be spent on something far more useful.

And did you catch the part in the demo where Casey stated that there would be numerous weapon customisation stations throughout the levels? Thats where weapon modding could take place.
Does anyone really change their current ammo power in the middle of a battle? It's much better to do pre battle, which the weapon customisation tables would allow.

[Phaedon]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
Are you saying you've encountered an enemy squad with mechs, husks and organics in it?

I'm not saying ammo is useless; I'm saying switching ammo while you're in combat is useless.

Oi, don't twist my words there.  I just picked some enemies that I remember back when I played Soldier for ME2. 

Maybe there isn't a huge advantage of switching ammo literally mid-shooting, but it is, right before encounters, after all, as mods, you are entering a mission not knowing exactly what kind of enemies you are going to face, and with no efficient way to change your ammo type and therefore style of play.

That would clearly be a problem with ME3, considering that the enemies will be much more diverse. 

And yes, I want to shoot a merc's shield off with my disruptor ammo and then switch to incendiary to finsh him or her off. I think that it is an incentive to tactical gameplay.

Different gameplay is great, it's one the cool things about ME's class system. But Soldier gameplay is shooting and shooting in slowmo - a bit poor for a game that claims to combine RPG-ish abilities with shooter mechanics imo. I would prefer a Soldier class with a couple more tricks on their sleeves beside ARush.

That's also another interesting debate. Some people may just play for the shooter elements and the story, would you rather change the whole game to cater to that group, or devote a class to them?

Modifié par Phaedon, 09 juin 2011 - 09:05 .

[Bozorgmehr]

daqs wrote...

The tricks up a Soldier's sleeve are her other guns.  That's kind of the point of having four kinds of guns available to you.

That's only one weapon more than the other classes.

Mass Effect gameplay is about using weapons and powers in tandem; having only one power that will be used actively (though it's only a buff, nothing to be used directly on enemies) is to little in my book. Bullet-time is common among shooters nowadays - in fact, compared to most shooters, Soldier Shep has very little tools besides weapons.

In ME2 the Soldier has access to all 3 unique weapons - there will be no unique weapons in ME3 (as far as I know). The only reason to play Soldier in ME3 is ARush.

[Phaedon]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Okay, well if there is in fact an equality of ammo power use among the classes, and one wants to use different ammo in different situations, do you know how many potential power slots would be taken up? It's be a complete waste of space; just because you want to use varying types of ammo in varying situations, you are punished because you must spend points on these when they could be spent on something far more useful.

And did you catch the part in the demo where Casey stated that there would be numerous weapon customisation stations throughout the levels? Thats where weapon modding could take place.
Does anyone really change their current ammo power in the middle of a battle? It's much better to do pre battle, which the weapon customisation tables would allow.

Sorry, I don't understand neither of your points.

1) How is it a waste of space, if it is useful after all? Would it not be good if you could, as a biotic class, for example, if you wish, be able to unlock incendiary ammo?

2) You still are unable to change the ammo type to suit your tactics exactly. For starters, you have to replay the game first if you want to know what kind of enemy will be ahead. Also, when a different type of enemy or a protection of a specific enemy is gone/introduced, you will want to change your ammo type.

[Icinix]

My only problem with Ammo Powers is the same problem I have with some other powers, and that is you need to upgrade one to gain access to the other.

All ammo powers should be available to upgrade from the get go - that said. I still preferred the variety the weapon mods offered in ME1. Being able to change to Tungsten rounds, to explosive etc was great because any class could use and it didn't have a cool down.

That said, even on higher difficulties I pretty much just set it to incendiary and never changed it. Meh.

Thats just how I roll.

[Tigerman123]

I don't think soldiers need powers beyond concussive shot/ grenade, people play soldiers for  traditional shooter based combat, nothing wrong with that and there's still squaddies for more fantastical powers.  The main problem with soldiers is that Adrenaline Rush is seriously overpowered and takes all the skill away from shooting.  There's no satisfaction from a well placed head shot, if the target is more or less still.  ME2 on insanity is one of the easiest shooters i've played, only matched in my memory by FEAR 1 on "extreme", which  had the same slow mo stuff.

To spruce em up ammo powers other than cryo and inferno, should be given interesting visual and status effects 

[Captain Crash]

Phaedon wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...
Can you give an example of a fight when switching ammo makes sense, or improves Shep's combat capabilities?

Diruptor ammo for mechs for example, cryo ammo for husks and incendiary ammo for organics?

Problem is, as mentioned you dont ever switch over your powers.  Its all well and good adding the bonuses, but even when the weapon isnt loaded out with a power it still does significant damage.  That way adepts for example who dont use it can still kill a target.   Since for a soldier you already have this base shooting, adding one power on top makes it far more effective, even against enemies it wasnt designed against.  Therefore theres limited inclination to switch them.


The only way I can think to make you switch around ammo powers would be to increase damage thresholds on enemies and bonuses for the soldier class only.  That gives incentive to change powers as oppenents would be far tougher if your using the wrong ammo power.  By limiting to the soldier, those who play an adept for example arnt penalised. 

[Gibb_Shepard]

Phaedon wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Okay, well if there is in fact an equality of ammo power use among the classes, and one wants to use different ammo in different situations, do you know how many potential power slots would be taken up? It's be a complete waste of space; just because you want to use varying types of ammo in varying situations, you are punished because you must spend points on these when they could be spent on something far more useful.

And did you catch the part in the demo where Casey stated that there would be numerous weapon customisation stations throughout the levels? Thats where weapon modding could take place.
Does anyone really change their current ammo power in the middle of a battle? It's much better to do pre battle, which the weapon customisation tables would allow.

Sorry, I don't understand neither of your points.

1) How is it a waste of space, if it is useful after all? Would it not be good if you could, as a biotic class, for example, if you wish, be able to unlock incendiary ammo?

2) You still are unable to change the ammo type to suit your tactics exactly. For starters, you have to replay the game first if you want to know what kind of enemy will be ahead. Also, when a different type of enemy or a protection of a specific enemy is gone/introduced, you will want to change your ammo type.

Your entire argument is about diversity in gameplay. WIth ammo powers, when playing as a biotic or vanguard you have to spend a ****load of points just to unlock all of the ammo powers. These points should be spent on something much more useful to a biotic; instead, it is a gain-this but lose-this situation.

To reitterate, You have to spend a ****load of otherwise useful skill points to unlock the diversity in gameplay you're arguing for; when if they were mods, they'd already be there, and the biotic can still spend points on useful skills.

Do you understand now?

[Flashlegend]

That's also another interesting debate. Some people may just play for
the shooter elements and the story, would you rather change the whole
game to cater to that group, or devote a class to them?

Soldiers Soldiiers Soldiers. They're great and all but can we also not forget they're not the only class stuck with ammo powers? Infiltrators and Vanguards(My two most played classes) have to live with ammo powers. I would seriously love it if ammo powers could be transferred over to weapon modding so I could get new passive/active abilities. This would quite simply make the game more fun.

If they really needed to they could just revamp the soldier class a bit(since they get the worst end of the stick with ammo powers), This could include passives to all abilities and the use of weapon modding(If they wanted to class to play the same) or new active abilities which could easily be designed to stay true the Soldier spirit.

I just don't see how doing any of this could harm the quality of the game. classes that previously couldn't use ammo powers would get them, classes that had ammo powers would get new abilities which would make gameplay more fun. And the same could be said about soldiers. What's so wrong with this?(I didn't even mention spending so many points on ammo power is pretty weak)

Modifié par Flashlegend, 09 juin 2011 - 09:16 .

[Phaedon]

Captain Crash wrote...
Problem is, as mentioned you dont ever switch over your powers.  Its all well and good adding the bonuses, but even when the weapon isnt loaded out with a power it still does significant damage.  That way adepts for example who dont use it can still kill a target.   Since for a soldier you already have this base shooting, adding one power on top makes it far more effective, even against enemies it wasnt designed against.  Therefore theres limited inclination to switch them.


The only way I can think to make you switch around ammo powers would be to increase damage thresholds on enemies and bonuses for the soldier class only.  That gives incentive to change powers as oppenents would be far tougher if your using the wrong ammo power.  By limiting to the soldier, those who play an adept for example arnt penalised. ]

The problem therefore, seems to lie in the execution which many admit, but not the concept itself? 

[Dave666]

daqs wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Using one power, over and over again gets old pretty quickly (and not very ME like).

On the contrary: it's how the Soldier worked in ME1 and ME2. 

ME:1   Soldier pops Immunity, pops Overkill, Overkill runs out...pops Adrenaline Rush, pops Overkill again which has been reset thanks to Adrenaline Rush, switches to Shotgun, pops Carnage....

ME:2   Soldier pops Adrenaline Rush... 

[Tasker]

Ammo types are great as a concept but changing them from the mods we had in ME1 to the powers we had in ME2 was just stupid.

How the hell can somebody that has the ability to press a button marked "Cryo" not have the ability to press a button marked "Warp" ?

It's retarded.

Mind you, as they ditched 99% of the interesting skills from ME1 when they made ME2, I suppose they had to fill the gaping chasms left behind with something.

Modifié par Orkboy, 09 juin 2011 - 09:15 .

[Phaedon]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Your entire argument is about diversity in gameplay. WIth ammo powers, when playing as a biotic or vanguard you have to spend a ****load of points just to unlock all of the ammo powers. These points should be spent on something much more useful to a biotic; instead, it is a gain-this but lose-this situation.

My point is not really diversity, I just think that being able to change your ammo type helps the use of ammo as a tactical element. You can still go back to ME1's system, but you'll have to focus elsewhere. I think that ammo was a nice touch.

To reiterate, You have to spend a ****load of otherwise useful skill points to unlock the diversity in gameplay you're arguing for; when if they were mods, they'd already be there, and the biotic can still spend points on useful skills.

Do you understand now?

Yes, I do understand your argument, and it's a valid one. 

[clerkenwell]

So in ME3 (at least at this stage), the Soldier has eight abilities, one of which may be a bonus power. They have their class passive, Adrenaline Rush, Concussive Shot, Frag Grenade, three ammo powers, and Fortitude (which appears to be a bonus power). So if we're going to get rid of ammo powers, we need to come up with three new powers for the Soldier.

Adrenaline Rush is our short duration +Damage ability. We hit it, and we kill better. Adding something similar would be pointless because either its better than Adrenaline Rush or its worse, and we completely ignore the one that's not as good. That's why we don't have a power like Carnage.

Concussive Shot is our situational use ability. Essentially it delays our next use of Adrenaline Rush in order to provide some necessary utility like knocking a guy out of cover, or short term CC on someone who's blasting away at you or a squadmate. We could certainly add more powers like this, utility powers that we won't want to use all the time, but when the situation calls for it. Obviously Concussive Shot gives us our CC/knockback move, so it needs to do something else. Something like... what? Strip defenses? How are you going to give the Soldier a power that strips Shields/Barrier/Armor without it being a Tech or Biotic power? (Hint: the obvious answer is ammo powers, but that's not cool, right?) I can't think of anything. What other kinds of utility abilities could we have? A longterm CC maybe? Tranq darts? But then what's the use of Concussive Shot?

Frag Grenades seem to be in a new category as they apparently do not trigger any cooldown. Not sure how they'll fit in exactly, if they require you to pick up new grenades or what. We'll have to see. Either way, it seems clear that giving a class multiple spammable, no cooldown powers is a recipe for OPness. Bad idea.

Okay, so what else is there? A defensive cooldown! For when you find yourself in a tight spot. Perfect! One down. Oh wait... that's probably what Fortitude is, and remember what we discussed about powers making other powers obsolete...

So we're left with... passives. Passives that do... what exactly? Almost all passive bonuses are covered in the class passive: increased weapon damage, faster power regen, longer power duration, increased power damage. You could maybe add a power that provides a variety of passive defensive bonuses. Shield capacity, recharge speed, recharge delay, stuff like that. Okay, there's one ammo power replaced. Still need two more passives. What do you think?

[Aimi]

Dave666 wrote...

ME:1   Soldier pops Immunity, pops Overkill, Overkill runs out...pops Adrenaline Rush, pops Overkill again which has been reset thanks to Adrenaline Rush, switches to Shotgun, pops Carnage....

ME:2   Soldier pops Adrenaline Rush... 

Naw, most of that was extraneous.  Overkill was a terrible and useless power.  Carnage was potentially useful, but unnecessary and arguably suboptimal.  Immunity was the relevant power, and spamming that was basically all a Soldier needed to do.

[Phaedon]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Special ammunition being a power is nonsensical.

It requires absolutely zero extra knowledge to fire a different round. It was made clear in ME1, that modded rounds are created by alternating the firing mechanism. Any soldier can do that in a comperatively small moment as it required only small tweaking on the guns mechanism, just as in real life a soldier needs little time to swap to a pre-made magazine loaded with alternating rounds,

The only reason it as implemented is that with the inventory gone, BioWare needed a way to implement situational ammunition to augment the combat mechanics.

With inventory (and especially more so gun customization) present, the only real reason Ammo Powers are not being revoked is because they can't think of powers (especially for the soldier) to compensate.

That is why my own process in coming p with a new class and skill system is being held up, because currently I can't think of replacements that would make sense.

I don't like it, but as far as I can't come up with anything to supplement, I will have to live with it.

While their exclusivity doesn't make much sense, I can see why their statistical progression does. I am sure that handling a weapon that fires, for example, explosive rounds, requires a different kind of experience than firing a weapon that fires standard rounds.

[clerkenwell]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...
I don't like it, but as far as I can't come up with anything to supplement, I will have to live with it.

My sentiments exactly.

edit://
And don't get me going on the Squadwide evolution ... I hate that.

Except this! I love squadwide evolution!

[Flashlegend]

clerkenwell wrote...

So in ME3 (at least at this stage), the Soldier has eight abilities, one of which may be a bonus power. They have their class passive, Adrenaline Rush, Concussive Shot, Frag Grenade, three ammo powers, and Fortitude (which appears to be a bonus power). So if we're going to get rid of ammo powers, we need to come up with three new powers for the Soldier.

Adrenaline Rush is our short duration +Damage ability. We hit it, and we kill better. Adding something similar would be pointless because either its better than Adrenaline Rush or its worse, and we completely ignore the one that's not as good. That's why we don't have a power like Carnage.

Concussive Shot is our situational use ability. Essentially it delays our next use of Adrenaline Rush in order to provide some necessary utility like knocking a guy out of cover, or short term CC on someone who's blasting away at you or a squadmate. We could certainly add more powers like this, utility powers that we won't want to use all the time, but when the situation calls for it. Obviously Concussive Shot gives us our CC/knockback move, so it needs to do something else. Something like... what? Strip defenses? How are you going to give the Soldier a power that strips Shields/Barrier/Armor without it being a Tech or Biotic power? (Hint: the obvious answer is ammo powers, but that's not cool, right?) I can't think of anything. What other kinds of utility abilities could we have? A longterm CC maybe? Tranq darts? But then what's the use of Concussive Shot?

Frag Grenades seem to be in a new category as they apparently do not trigger any cooldown. Not sure how they'll fit in exactly, if they require you to pick up new grenades or what. We'll have to see. Either way, it seems clear that giving a class multiple spammable, no cooldown powers is a recipe for OPness. Bad idea.

Okay, so what else is there? A defensive cooldown! For when you find yourself in a tight spot. Perfect! One down. Oh wait... that's probably what Fortitude is, and remember what we discussed about powers making other powers obsolete...

So we're left with... passives. Passives that do... what exactly? Almost all passive bonuses are covered in the class passive: increased weapon damage, faster power regen, longer power duration, increased power damage. You could maybe add a power that provides a variety of passive defensive bonuses. Shield capacity, recharge speed, recharge delay, stuff like that. Okay, there's one ammo power replaced. Still need two more passives. What do you think?

Since this is a squad based shooter. It might be nice to also think of squad based powers that the Soldier could use. And if they really needed to then they could keep one ammo power for the Soldier.(just make it different from what we've already seen and possibly stackable, might be op) Also, don't forget that hybrid classes are also stuck with ammo powers as well.

[Lunatic LK47]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...


Which was brilliantly solved in ME1 as it was the players responsibility to adapt his playstyle to the ammunition you chose. Which is for more better than having imposed limitations on the character itself.

Except switching those ammo mods is a pain in the ass because the inventory was utter crap. As a result, I ended up permanently sticking with Inferno or Polonium Rounds while the others are collecting dust.

[Priximus]

why care about the new ammo system?? Aslong as we get to shoot stuff

[Aimi]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Special ammunition being a power is nonsensical.

It requires absolutely zero extra knowledge to fire a different round. It was made clear in ME1, that modded rounds are created by alternating the firing mechanism. Any soldier can do that in a comperatively small moment as it required only small tweaking on the guns mechanism, just as in real life a soldier needs little time to swap to a pre-made magazine loaded with alternating rounds,

Yeah, but exclusivity doesn't make any sense for most of the tech powers either.  Why should Overload be any more class-exclusive than, say, Cryo Ammo?  What extra knowledge does Incinerate require?  Why is Tech Armor something that only a Sentinel can use?  You get the idea.  With biotics, it's theoretically possible to justify that sort of thing.  But programs on an omni-tool really don't require specialized training (except maybe AI Hacking) any more than swapping in an ammo mod.

Modifié par daqs, 09 juin 2011 - 09:28 .

[Phaedon]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...
Which was brilliantly solved in ME1 as it was the players responsibility to adapt his playstyle to the ammunition you chose. Which is for more better than having imposed limitations on the character itself.

How did ME1 handle it? All I remember were mods changing your stats. And well, this is one of the issues where you can't have direct control over. You can't exactly tell the protagonist to stop putting their fingers so close to the heatsink when you are firing incendiary rounds.

Modifié par Phaedon, 09 juin 2011 - 09:28 .