175 réponses à ce sujet

[Flashlegend]

Priximus wrote...

why care about the new ammo system?? Aslong as we get to shoot stuff

I think you would benefit from actually reading the thread.

[Dave666]

daqs wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

ME:1   Soldier pops Immunity, pops Overkill, Overkill runs out...pops Adrenaline Rush, pops Overkill again which has been reset thanks to Adrenaline Rush, switches to Shotgun, pops Carnage....

ME:2   Soldier pops Adrenaline Rush... 

Naw, most of that was extraneous.  Overkill was a terrible and useless power.  Carnage was potentially useful, but unnecessary and arguably suboptimal.  Immunity was the relevant power, and spamming that was basically all a Soldier needed to do.

Er...what? The weapon skills were extremely useful.  Adrenaline Rush was great for resetting abilities for more usage or if the Soldier got Dampened.  The abilities were all useful in ME:1.  

Saying that you could just spam Immunity is like saying well as an Adept you could just use your guns.  

Of course you can do both of these things, but you're gimping yourself for no reason at all.

[clerkenwell]

Flashlegend wrote...
Since this is a squad based shooter. It might be nice to also think of squad based powers that the Soldier could use. And if they really needed to then they could keep one ammo power for the Soldier.(just make it different from what we've already seen and possibly stackable, might be op) Also, don't forget that hybrid classes are also stuck with ammo powers as well.

That's true, we could have some sort of power that buffs our squad instead of ourselves, something to use when we need to hang back in cover and regenerate shields. Paint a target so they take increased damage? I'm not exactly sure how that would work in terms of real-world mechanics, but its possible. I'd think that a flat+damage bonus for squadmates probably won't work, as that appears to be an option in the class passive. You could have a squad defensive buff as well, something like... I'm not sure. Instantly restore shields? That seems like a decent Tech power. Improves health regeneration? That seems to suit the soldier a bit better, but the utility seems weak. Any other ideas?

And I didn't forget about hybrids, but compared to Soldiers they should be much easier to resolve. I figure it's best to address the primary roadblock before tackling the smaller ones.

[alx119]

I guess I'm one of the few who actually liked the ammo powers, and I gotta agree with Phaedon that it doesn't seem too much of a big deal, especially for Soldier class, where you're not going to want to spend your points on fancy biotics or techs, but on firepower.
It's not a waste of points because, it pretty much adapts to your style of gaming, your tactics, I myself, always boost, first the Shock Trooper, then the Inferno Ammo, bit of adrenaline burst, barriers (from Grunt's special hability), and disruption ammo. (I personally dislike the frozen ammo)
I don't know, what else could I ask? Assault Rifles like in ME1? Doesn't matter that much since it's based on your habilty to aim, besides, Mattock, all said.
More points on defense stats would be nice, but if I'm not wrong they ARE already applying that in ME3 withOUT taking away the ammo powers.

I don't know, it just seems reasonable to me, that the Soldier class, a combat focused class, would have talents around guns and their firepower.

[alx119]

Dave666 wrote...

daqs wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

ME:1   Soldier pops Immunity, pops Overkill, Overkill runs out...pops Adrenaline Rush, pops Overkill again which has been reset thanks to Adrenaline Rush, switches to Shotgun, pops Carnage....

ME:2   Soldier pops Adrenaline Rush... 

Naw, most of that was extraneous.  Overkill was a terrible and useless power.  Carnage was potentially useful, but unnecessary and arguably suboptimal.  Immunity was the relevant power, and spamming that was basically all a Soldier needed to do.

Er...what? The weapon skills were extremely useful.  Adrenaline Rush was great for resetting abilities for more usage or if the Soldier got Dampened.  The abilities were all useful in ME:1.  

Saying that you could just spam Immunity is like saying well as an Adept you could just use your guns.  

Of course you can do both of these things, but you're gimping yourself for no reason at all.

Gotta agree with daqs here, Overkill and Carnge were pretty weak, especially once you got upgraded weapons with more stability and cooling systems, aka the Spectre weapons, they were uterly useless. And if you got Dampened, you'd just shift weapons.
Besides Inmunity was lame to me, nothing should be able to make you inmortal in the middle of a battle, the barriers were more reasonable to me, and the one I used the most (and was brought back in ME2).

[Aimi]

Dave666 wrote...

Er...what? The weapon skills were extremely useful.  Adrenaline Rush was great for resetting abilities for more usage or if the Soldier got Dampened.  The abilities were all useful in ME:1.  

Saying that you could just spam Immunity is like saying well as an Adept you could just use your guns.  

Of course you can do both of these things, but you're gimping yourself for no reason at all.

Adrenaline Rush was situationally useful - if you screwed up and wandered into the middle of something that caused you to lose your Immunity - but to all intents and purposes it was an annex to the Immunity power; they were two halves of a whole.  Since the Soldier only had a few other powers to recharge anyway - some of which, like the shield-recharging power, were on the verge of pointless - that doesn't add a whole lot of tactical power use variety.  You might use Carnage or Assassination a few times in a given firefight, but more often than not cooldown intervened even with timely use of Adrenaline Rush and even on Insanity; 

As for the specific case of Overkill, it was objectively useless, because its accuracy loss reduction and heating reduction were superfluous at or before midgame (Feros/Noveria) of your first playthrough.  A power that only becomes useful on Eden Prime (assuming you've put points into it at all at that point) and maybe your first plot world isn't particularly useful in my opinion.  I dunno, I could be wrong.

[Dem_B]

Ammo can be selected like we choose the weapons before the mission.

 Was created many topics that many people would choose to ammo upgrades. I do not understand why the developers ignored it.

Soldier can take every ammo what he wants, but if you're an engineer you can't have ammunition - this is nonsense, is the same ammunition. Grenades too.

If I want to use cryo ammo is why I must first unlock the other? How does this relate? If I do not like the ammo of my class, why can not I choose the ones that I wanted to use?

Ammunition as the skills needed to just because the soldier has no other skills.
I hope that Mass Effect 3 not only for those who play as a soldier.
 

[Bozorgmehr]

Phaedon wrote...

Oi, don't twist my words there.  I just picked some enemies that I remember back when I played Soldier for ME2.

Maybe there isn't a huge advantage of switching ammo literally mid-shooting, but it is, right before encounters, after all, as mods, you are entering a mission not knowing exactly what kind of enemies you are going to face, and with no efficient way to change your ammo type and therefore style of play.

That would clearly be a problem with ME3, considering that the enemies will be much more diverse. 

And yes, I want to shoot a merc's shield off with my disruptor ammo and then switch to incendiary to finsh him or her off. I think that it is an incentive to tactical gameplay.

Ammo can be pretty useful - switching ammo during combat isn't. When you're fighting a merc, you can switch to Incediary ammo after stripping his/her shield. But the time wasted by activating another ammo power (time you cannot shoot) equals the time it would have taken to kill the merc with Disruptor Ammo equipped > switching ammo only slows you down.
More 'diverse' enemies are irrelevant; it looks like the ME2 defenses make a return and I haven't seen new types so far. Only when you face mixed enemy squads; and only when you're using OSOK weapon which need the small (ammo) damage bonus might make it worth your while.

In ME2 you can find useful info about upcoming missions in the codex entries - when you read about Geth, you should know anti-shield / synthetic powers are likely going to be of use. When you read about Bloodpack, anti-armor abilities might come in handy etc. This is also not really related to ammo an sich; picking the appropriate squadmates and/or weapons are of equal importance and follow the same 'logic' (the right tools for the job).

That's also another interesting debate. Some people may just play for the shooter elements and the story, would you rather change the whole game to cater to that group, or devote a class to them?

I don't see what this has to do with ammo being a power or not. If people are not going to play ME, that's their problem. Plus they can play on Casual so it doesn't matter what they do - enemies will die by looking at em regardless.

There is a difference between making things easy and making things simplistic - there is nothing wrong with the Soldier being the 'introduction' class - there is something wrong in making equipment into a power that doesn't add anything in terms of gameplay. The purpose of powers is to give the player options in combat (without the need to pause the game); ammo doesn't give options that are worthwhile, so, IMO, it ain't a 'power' - just an easy (and poor) way to fill the power-slots.

[clerkenwell]

Dem_B wrote...

Ammo can be selected like we choose the weapons before the mission.

 Was created many topics that many people would choose to ammo upgrades. I do not understand why the developers ignored it.

Soldier can take every ammo what he wants, but if you're an engineer you can't have ammunition - this is nonsense, is the same ammunition. Grenades too.

If I want to use cryo ammo is why I must first unlock the other? How does this relate? If I do not like the ammo of my class, why can not I choose the ones that I wanted to use?

Ammunition as the skills needed to just because the soldier has no other skills.
I hope that Mass Effect 3 not only for those who play as a soldier.
 

You're ignoring the crux of the issue though. If you remove ammo powers, you have to put something in their place, and frankly I don't see it happening. Did you see my post on the last page?

[Dave666]

alx119 wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

daqs wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

ME:1   Soldier pops Immunity, pops Overkill, Overkill runs out...pops Adrenaline Rush, pops Overkill again which has been reset thanks to Adrenaline Rush, switches to Shotgun, pops Carnage....

ME:2   Soldier pops Adrenaline Rush... 

Naw, most of that was extraneous.  Overkill was a terrible and useless power.  Carnage was potentially useful, but unnecessary and arguably suboptimal.  Immunity was the relevant power, and spamming that was basically all a Soldier needed to do.

Er...what? The weapon skills were extremely useful.  Adrenaline Rush was great for resetting abilities for more usage or if the Soldier got Dampened.  The abilities were all useful in ME:1.  

Saying that you could just spam Immunity is like saying well as an Adept you could just use your guns.  

Of course you can do both of these things, but you're gimping yourself for no reason at all.

Gotta agree with daqs here, Overkill and Carnge were pretty weak, especially once you got upgraded weapons with more stability and cooling systems, aka the Spectre weapons, they were uterly useless. And if you got Dampened, you'd just shift weapons.
Besides Inmunity was lame to me, nothing should be able to make you inmortal in the middle of a battle, the barriers were more reasonable to me, and the one I used the most (and was brought back in ME2).

Saboutage disabled weapons, which is where switching was useful.  Damping disabled abilities, which is where Adrenaline Rush came in.

Personally I found the weapon skills very useful, but fair enough, you had a different opinion.

The point of all this was to show that powers that were useful could potentially be added back in (with modifications of course) in place of 'Ammo Powers' and would give more versatility to combat classes.

[ME-ParaShep]

clerkenwell wrote...

Flashlegend wrote...
Since this is a squad based shooter. It might be nice to also think of squad based powers that the Soldier could use. And if they really needed to then they could keep one ammo power for the Soldier.(just make it different from what we've already seen and possibly stackable, might be op) Also, don't forget that hybrid classes are also stuck with ammo powers as well.

That's true, we could have some sort of power that buffs our squad instead of ourselves, something to use when we need to hang back in cover and regenerate shields. Paint a target so they take increased damage? I'm not exactly sure how that would work in terms of real-world mechanics, but its possible. I'd think that a flat+damage bonus for squadmates probably won't work, as that appears to be an option in the class passive. You could have a squad defensive buff as well, something like... I'm not sure. Instantly restore shields? That seems like a decent Tech power. Improves health regeneration? That seems to suit the soldier a bit better, but the utility seems weak. Any other ideas?

And I didn't forget about hybrids, but compared to Soldiers they should be much easier to resolve. I figure it's best to address the primary roadblock before tackling the smaller ones.

I suggest that Vanguards (and maybe even Adepts) can have an enhanced Barrier skill that allows for squad barrier usage. Vanguards in combat are like Paladins, they are offensive, yet they are tankish as well. Tech's can also do something similar with their Tech armor. Making layers of Biotic Barriers, Kinetic Shields, Tech Armor, and finally Health possible. I'd like that. It would be a great reward for all players for all classes who decide to stick to a defensive route with their squadmate upgrades. For me, if that were to be true. I as a die-hard Soldier and Adept user would make allocate points to make myself majorly offensive while my squad be mixed with mostly supportive and defensive skills and some offensive capabilities.

[alx119]

I do miss the hability to heal in combat though, that's why I used Adrenaline Rush the most in ME1, for that and Unity. The rest of habilities I barely touched.

And the only weapon skill I really did use was Assasination, a perfect scope with the sniper plus a bonus on damage, that was pretty wicked. But again, in ME2, you already have a perfect scope, and the bonus you can get with Adrenaline Rush.

EDIT: @Dave666: Wait but, isn't saboutage a tech skill? The soldier didn't have that one, did he? Unless you're counting the squaddies skills, which few people are in this thread. That's why I don't complain about ammo in ME2, because, you as a Soldier has them ammo, but still have the benefits of the other powers thanks to your squadmates. Makes it even more nice, especially if you decide to get the ammo for the whole squad, even more destructive.

Modifié par alx119, 09 juin 2011 - 10:09 .

[Malanek]

[quote]Bozorgmehr wrote...
Can you give an example of a fight when switching ammo makes sense, or improves Shep's combat capabilities?
[quote]
Fighting a single heavy mech. Disrupter on your shotgun, Incendiary on your Assault rifle. Take cover after mechs shields depleted, switch weapons and let your shields recover and your adrenaline rush cool down.

Modifié par Malanek999, 09 juin 2011 - 10:16 .

[Dead Shizno]

well since people want the ammo type to be used by the other classes why not have the tech powers as be used for every one? not enough well then lets have every class use the biotics still not happy? well then fine here have the reaper gun!
/sarcasm

i have an idea for bioware though,let all classes have the ammo power ok now let the soilder be able to mod that power! who dosnt want some fire ammo that also shocks you? or armor and shielding percing rounds? let him be able to mix 2 ammo styles into one! sounds OP? well then reduce the fire damage by 50% and the ice damage by 50% when they mix together,maybe shorter times when there frozen and on fire! > hot and ice baby!

[Dave666]

alx119 wrote...

EDIT: @Dave666: Wait but, isn't saboutage a tech skill? The soldier didn't have that one, did he? Unless you're counting the squaddies skills, which few people are in this thread. That's why I don't complain about ammo in ME2, because, you as a Soldier has them ammo, but still have the benefits of the other powers thanks to your squadmates. Makes it even more nice, especially if you decide to get the ammo for the whole squad, even more destructive.

I meant that if Sabotage was used on the Soldier they would switch weapons (and have a weapon skill for any weapon that they switched to I might add).

Modifié par Dave666, 09 juin 2011 - 10:19 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Malanek999 wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...
Can you give an example of a fight when switching ammo makes sense, or improves Shep's combat capabilities?

Fighting a single heavy mech. Disrupter on your shotgun, Incendiary on your Assault rifle. Take cover after mechs shields depleted, switch weapons and let your shields recover and your adrenaline rush cool down.

You're switching weapons, not ammo powers - you can do all that without ammo powers (just equip your shottie with DA and your assault rifle with IA before the mission / fight).

[alx119]

Dave666 wrote...
I meant that if Sabotage was used on the Soldier they would switch weapons (and have a weapon skill for any weapon that they switched to I might add).

Oh ok

[MrGone]

REAL REASON - Ammo powers aren't flashy, and probably the most played character class (soldier) has a whole bunch of them, causing a lot of people to feel the Soldier is "boring" due to some weird sense of entitlement.

STATED REASONS - Anything to not justify the real reason.

[Dem_B]

clerkenwell wrote...

Dem_B wrote...

Ammo can be selected like we choose the weapons before the mission.

 Was created many topics that many people would choose to ammo upgrades. I do not understand why the developers ignored it.

Soldier can take every ammo what he wants, but if you're an engineer you can't have ammunition - this is nonsense, is the same ammunition. Grenades too.

If I want to use cryo ammo is why I must first unlock the other? How does this relate? If I do not like the ammo of my class, why can not I choose the ones that I wanted to use?

Ammunition as the skills needed to just because the soldier has no other skills.
I hope that Mass Effect 3 not only for those who play as a soldier.
 

You're ignoring the crux of the issue though. If you remove ammo powers, you have to put something in their place, and frankly I don't see it happening. Did you see my post on the last page?

For the soldier should do more melee abilities. Where the melee abilities?

[MrGone]

Dem_B wrote...

For the soldier should do more melee abilities. Where the melee abilities?

Only partially agree with you there. Infiltrator and Vanguard should also both get sweet melee abilities.

The soldier should also have more squad abilities. That's the class that seems the most team oriented.

[Malanek]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...
Can you give an example of a fight when switching ammo makes sense, or improves Shep's combat capabilities?

Fighting a single heavy mech. Disrupter on your shotgun, Incendiary on your Assault rifle. Take cover after mechs shields depleted, switch weapons and let your shields recover and your adrenaline rush cool down.

You're switching weapons, not ammo powers - you can do all that without ammo powers (just equip your shottie with DA and your assault rifle with IA before the mission / fight).

First you are using one ammo, then you are using another. The soldier is (or at least it is supposed to be) about switching to the appropriate gun, so why wouldn't you have the correct ammo on it? Also using any power is pretty pointless when you are faced with not using adrenaline rush, the fact that they are passives mean they combine better. Since we are getting more non-passives, passive become even more valuable.

But since the cooldown is so quick, if you were going to use a single weapon, it would still be beneficial to switch between disrupter and incendiary while behind cover.

[DOGGEH84]

Phaedon wrote...

 I am sorry, but other than the fact than in ME2 not all classes could use them, I don't see the problem.

In fact, it allows for a more tactical style of playing, as you are able to switch your upgrades in realtime, in order to face an opponnent who responds differently to a specific type of ammo.

Moreover, you progress throughout the game, allowing you to choose whether you want to invest on them or not. 

So does hiding in cover and switching your ammo.  What if say?  Up on the D-Pad, switching through your available ammo types that you have?  Causing Shephard to reload real time?

I do get what you mean.  But I prefer having different weapons set up so I can deal with different enemies.

[Halo Quea]

The reasons people hate it are simple enough, one of them being that you actually have to spend skill points on ammo when it should be a native weapon mod.

When I look at the Soldier class and realize just how much of an investment (in total 30pts) that has to be made to max out the ammo powers, it really starts to wear thin. And it's not like you can assign them separately to your squad mates, like give one squad mate disruptor or another cryo ammo. You have to switch back and forth, which is ridiculous when you realize that these are ammo types that should be locked into a weapon, not a skill set.

ME1's skill set and weapon mod system wasn't perfect, mostly made by the inventory, but it had strengths that ME2 doesn't possess in any way.

[Dem_B]

MrGone wrote...

Dem_B wrote...

For the soldier should do more melee abilities. Where the melee abilities?

Only partially agree with you there. Infiltrator and Vanguard should also both get sweet melee abilities.

The soldier should also have more squad abilities. That's the class that seems the most team oriented.

Indeed. I agree. I would hope that we can change for the better.