175 réponses à ce sujet

[Malanek]

The ammo powers are awesome though. Same as in the other thread, the ability to freeze, fry or electrocute your enemies is extremely satisfying. I think the ammo powers are much more interesting than anything else on the soldier class.

[ink07]

Ammo types are not really skills so they shouldn't take up a skill set. I wouldn't mind if not every class could equip them to weapons like it is done now tho.To me they seem a lazy way to fill up the class sheet when other more soldier like abilities whether passive or not could be implemented.

Comparing them to tech stuff is idiotic

Modifié par ink07, 09 juin 2011 - 10:38 .

[Flashlegend]

Malanek999 wrote...

The ammo powers are awesome though. Same as in the other thread, the ability to freeze, fry or electrocute your enemies is extremely satisfying. I think the ammo powers are much more interesting than anything else on the soldier class.

No one here is saying remove ammo powers. We want ammo powers to shifted over into weapon modding(so all classes can have relative access) and give soldiers and hybrids REAL and unique combat abilities to make gameplay more fun. Soldiers can even continue to get a few perks with those specific weapon mods if need be. Simple and everybody wins.

[Terror_K]

My own personal reasons is simply because I think they work better as mods. They make more sense as mods, started out as mods, and are --according to the lore-- still technically mods. It makes no real sense for them to be powers, and there's no logical reason why they should be limited to only specific classes, especially when in the original game they weren't (with the possible exception being Warp Ammo being limited to biotics).

The ironic thing is that now any class can use an omni-tool with complete precision and skill to hack and decrypt things when realistically only a tech-expert should be able to, but now only specific classes can insert a small device into a gun that's essentially plug'n'play and use it... just 'cause. I'm guessing because the developers couldn't think of any real powers to give to the Soldier.

It makes no sense, and logically they should be unrestricted mods any class can use, because that's what they are really when it comes down to it. Of course mods went the way of the dodo in ME2, but since they're coming back again in ME3, then realistically shouldn't it be switched back? Powers are supposed to be skills, but why would a specific class need a skill to operate a modification to their gun that essentially does the work for them and merely alters the state of the shaving of metal being fired?

[Aimi]

Flashlegend wrote...

No one here is saying remove ammo powers. We want ammo powers to shifted over into weapon modding(so all classes can have relative access) and give soldiers and hybrids REAL and unique combat abilities to make gameplay more fun. Soldiers can even continue to get a few perks with those specific weapon mods if need be. Simple and everybody wins.

Kind of a pointless exercise with the way BW has been saying imports will work, though, isn't it?

[Flashlegend]

daqs wrote...

Flashlegend wrote...

No one here is saying remove ammo powers. We want ammo powers to shifted over into weapon modding(so all classes can have relative access) and give soldiers and hybrids REAL and unique combat abilities to make gameplay more fun. Soldiers can even continue to get a few perks with those specific weapon mods if need be. Simple and everybody wins.

Kind of a pointless exercise with the way BW has been saying imports will work, though, isn't it?

What? Can you clarify?

[Aimi]

Flashlegend wrote...

What? Can you clarify?

I thought it's been pretty clear for awhile that all of the old powers from the previous game would be retained; one of the pre-E3 magazine articles (can't remember which) also indicated that an imported Shep would start with all of her old powers in the new game, indirectly confirmed at the very least by Christina Norman via Twitter.

[Kreid]

My main Shepard is a soldier, and I find useful being able to change ammo types depending of the enemy, but I really think that ammo types shouldn't take power/ability slots.

Powers are powers and as such they should be active abilities IMO.

[Flashlegend]

daqs wrote...

Flashlegend wrote...

What? Can you clarify?

I thought it's been pretty clear for awhile that all of the old powers from the previous game would be retained; one of the pre-E3 magazine articles (can't remember which) also indicated that an imported Shep would start with all of her old powers in the new game, indirectly confirmed at the very least by Christina Norman via Twitter.

Hadn't heard of that. Are you sure? What about players whom havent played either of the prior games.(whom they obviously care about when looking at E3) From what I saw of the E3 demo yesterday soldiers have at least 1(maybe2?) new ability(So I assume the other classes will as well). They have to atleast allow us to re-arrange points at the beginning of the game so it could just be our level carrying over.

Game is still 9 months away so its not like its set in stone. They could still change their minds and hopefull they do.

Modifié par Flashlegend, 09 juin 2011 - 11:27 .

[baryonic member]

It's really annoying have to apply it all the time.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Terror_K wrote...

My own personal reasons is simply because I think they work better as mods. They make more sense as mods, started out as mods, and are --according to the lore-- still technically mods. It makes no real sense for them to be powers, and there's no logical reason why they should be limited to only specific classes, especially when in the original game they weren't (with the possible exception being Warp Ammo being limited to biotics).

The ironic thing is that now any class can use an omni-tool with complete precision and skill to hack and decrypt things when realistically only a tech-expert should be able to, but now only specific classes can insert a small device into a gun that's essentially plug'n'play and use it... just 'cause. I'm guessing because the developers couldn't think of any real powers to give to the Soldier.

It makes no sense, and logically they should be unrestricted mods any class can use, because that's what they are really when it comes down to it. Of course mods went the way of the dodo in ME2, but since they're coming back again in ME3, then realistically shouldn't it be switched back? Powers are supposed to be skills, but why would a specific class need a skill to operate a modification to their gun that essentially does the work for them and merely alters the state of the shaving of metal being fired?

Very well said, Terror.

[CaptainZaysh]

Terror_K wrote...

The ironic thing is that now any class can use an omni-tool with complete precision and skill to hack and decrypt things when realistically only a tech-expert should be able to, but now only specific classes can insert a small device into a gun that's essentially plug'n'play and use it... just 'cause. I'm guessing because the developers couldn't think of any real powers to give to the Soldier.

It makes no sense, and logically they should be unrestricted mods any class can use, because that's what they are really when it comes down to it. Of course mods went the way of the dodo in ME2, but since they're coming back again in ME3, then realistically shouldn't it be switched back? Powers are supposed to be skills, but why would a specific class need a skill to operate a modification to their gun that essentially does the work for them and merely alters the state of the shaving of metal being fired?

By that rationale, soldiers should be able to use all tech attacks as well, though.  Using cryo blast is no more complicated than pointing your omnitool at a bad guy and hitting a button.

[In Exile]

Flashlegend wrote...

Since this is a squad based shooter. It might be nice to also think of squad based powers that the Soldier could use. And if they really needed to then they could keep one ammo power for the Soldier.(just make it different from what we've already seen and possibly stackable, might be op) Also, don't forget that hybrid classes are also stuck with ammo powers as well.

That just changes the problem. If you had squad based powers, everyone would suddenly ask why the adept is too stupid to ask for supressing fire.

[In Exile]

Terror_K wrote...

My own personal reasons is simply because I think they work better as mods. They make more sense as mods, started out as mods, and are --according to the lore-- still technically mods. It makes no real sense for them to be powers, and there's no logical reason why they should be limited to only specific classes, especially when in the original game they weren't (with the possible exception being Warp Ammo being limited to biotics).

Their an RPG element: it takes skill to modify a gun in this particular way, and soldiers are trained to do it.

The ironic thing is that now any class can use an omni-tool with complete precision and skill to hack and decrypt things when realistically only a tech-expert should be able to, but now only specific classes can insert a small device into a gun that's essentially plug'n'play and use it... just 'cause. I'm guessing because the developers couldn't think of any real powers to give to the Soldier.

So? Hacking training becomes standard. If you teach a soldier to hot-wire a car, it doesn't mean that soldier can build an an engine out of spare parts. There's no conflict, unless you argue that there's only one way to use an omnitool.

It makes no sense, and logically they should be unrestricted mods any class can use, because that's what they are really when it comes down to it. Of course mods went the way of the dodo in ME2, but since they're coming back again in ME3, then realistically shouldn't it be switched back? Powers are supposed to be skills, but why would a specific class need a skill to operate a modification to their gun that essentially does the work for them and merely alters the state of the shaving of metal being fired?

It certainly makes sense. An RPG exists only on based on the arbitrary restrictions pushed onto the player. Why isn't modifying a weapon allowed to be a skill?

Just think of it as ordinance - some modificaitions to a gun may be standard military training, but not others.

[Kabanya101]

I personally hate ammo powers, because all your doing is modding the weapon to change the damage output, HELLO, keyword: MODDING.

If they are bringing back weapon mods, what is the point in keeping ammo powers. Powers to me represent personal abilities that either give you a power/edge in battle that directly damages the opponent or a passive the makes you stronger.

Sure ammo powers follow under passive powers, kind of, but in another game like ME2 they were fine because they got rid of weapon modding, but its back now, so it becomes useless to have. They are only bringing it back from ME2 cause they: 1) Don't want to take the time to make more powers and 2) They want to keep the class trees similar to their ME2 counterparts.

[TheKillerAngel]

Ideally, what Phaedon and some others are suggesting, the ammo skills would be universal to all classes, or something like that. It could be possible for there just to be one ammo skill that when leveled, affects all the powers (which you can adjust accordingly).

If they are bringing back weapon mods, what is the point in keeping ammo powers. Powers to me represent personal abilities that either give you a power/edge in battle that directly damages the opponent or a passive the makes you stronger.

You would not be able to change ammo types without taking your weapon to a workbench if that were the case.

Modifié par TheKillerAngel, 09 juin 2011 - 12:17 .

[Flashlegend]

In Exile wrote...

Flashlegend wrote...

Since this is a squad based shooter. It might be nice to also think of squad based powers that the Soldier could use. And if they really needed to then they could keep one ammo power for the Soldier.(just make it different from what we've already seen and possibly stackable, might be op) Also, don't forget that hybrid classes are also stuck with ammo powers as well.

That just changes the problem. If you had squad based powers, everyone would suddenly ask why the adept is too stupid to ask for supressing fire.

Okay, fine, no squad based powers then. It was only a suggestion since I lack the creativity(that I know bioware has) to come up with actual abilities. Point still stands, shift ammo over to weapon modding so every class has acess to them. Then, compensate soldiers, infiltrators and vanguard with new abilities making gameplay more interesting. Everyone wins.

[Terror_K]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

By that rationale, soldiers should be able to use all tech attacks as well, though.  Using cryo blast is no more complicated than pointing your omnitool at a bad guy and hitting a button.

Uh... that was kind of my point: I think it's silly that a non-tech class can use an omni-tool so well. If anybody can just hack and decrypt so easily with almost no knowledge about the technology, then why bother locking or decrypting anything at all? Any schmo can do it, judging from ME2's way of going about things. But ammo mods weren't depicted like that and it was never a skill or a specialist thing. Ammo mods are basically like plugging in a cartridge in a gun... that's it. But now only apparently certain classes can do that. It makes no sense, especially given what they did with regards to the omni-tool... that's my whole point.

In Exile wrote...

Their an RPG element: it takes skill to modify a gun in this particular way, and soldiers are trained to do it.

Uh... not it doesn't. Mods are a simply plug'n'play mechanic. It's like saying I need a special skill or training to insert a cartridge into my Nintendo DS. Anybody who can use a gun can use an ammo mod, it's as simple as that. If you can change the thermal clips you can change the mod. They're a simple plug-in upgrade... a child with no military training could probably do it.

So? Hacking training becomes standard. If you teach a soldier to hot-wire a car, it doesn't mean that soldier can build an an engine out of spare parts. There's no conflict, unless you argue that there's only one way to use an omnitool.

No, but it really was one of the main factors of being a tech, and non-tech Shepard wasn't trained to do it in ME1, so why does he/she suddenly know in ME2? And if Shepard magically does, then why does he/she suddenly forget how to modify a weapon at the same time? That's just stupid.

It certainly makes sense. An RPG exists only on based on the arbitrary restrictions pushed onto the player. Why isn't modifying a weapon allowed to be a skill?

Just think of it as ordinance - some modificaitions to a gun may be standard military training, but not others.

Again, mods are simply plug'n'play affairs. And, again, any class could do it in ME1 because of this, but now suddenly can't. My Engineer Shepard knew how to slot a small device into a slot in their weapon in ME1, but suddenly forgot how to do it in ME2? What... when all the guns were upgraded modding was suddenly changed for be far more complicated all of a sudden (which even then wouldn't make sense, because if that were the case even a Soldier Shepard would need a crash course after being dead for two years).

Modifié par Terror_K, 09 juin 2011 - 12:19 .

[TheKillerAngel]

Terror_K wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

By that rationale, soldiers should
be able to use all tech attacks as well, though.  Using cryo blast is no
more complicated than pointing your omnitool at a bad guy and hitting a
button.

Uh... that was kind of my point: I think
it's silly that a non-tech class can use an omni-tool so well. If
anybody can just hack and decrypt so easily with almost no knowledge
about the technology, then why bother locking or decrypting anything at
all? Any schmo can do it, judging from ME2's
way of going about things. But ammo mods weren't depicted like that and
it was never a skill or a specialist thing. Ammo mods are basically like
plugging in a cartridge in a gun... that's it. But now only apparently
certain classes can do that. It makes no sense, especially given what they did with regards to the omni-tool... that's my whole point.

In Exile wrote...

Their an RPG element: it takes skill to modify a gun in this particular way, and soldiers are trained to do it.

Uh... not it doesn't. Mods are a simply plug'n'play mechanic. It's like saying I need a special skill or training to insert a cartridge into my Nintendo DS. Anybody who can use a gun can use an ammo mod, it's as simple as that. If you can change the thermal clips you can change the mod. They're a simple plug-in upgrade... a child with no military training could probably do it.

So? Hacking training becomes standard. If you teach a soldier to hot-wire a car, it doesn't mean that soldier can build an an engine out of spare parts. There's no conflict, unless you argue that there's only one way to use an omnitool.

No, but it really was one of the main factors of being a tech, and non-tech Shepard wasn't trained to do it in ME1, so why does he/she suddenly know in ME2? And if Shepard magically does, then why does he/she suddenly forget how to modify a weapon at the same time? That's just stupid.

It certainly makes sense. An RPG exists only on based on the arbitrary restrictions pushed onto the player. Why isn't modifying a weapon allowed to be a skill?

Just think of it as ordinance - some modificaitions to a gun may be standard military training, but not others.

Again, mods are simply plug'n'play affairs. And, again, any class could do it in ME1 because of this, but now suddenly can't. My Engineer Shepard knew how to slot a small device into a slot in their weapon in ME1, but suddenly forgot how to do it in ME2? What... when all the guns were upgraded modding was suddenly changed for be far more complicated all of a sudden (which even then wouldn't make sense, because if that were the case even a Soldier Shepard would need a crash course after being dead for two years).

That was a gameplay concession. I absolutely hated the "frogger" decryption of ME1 - if I could even decrypt something in the first place. If you did not have a tech skill leveled up you were essentially forced to bring a squad member with tech abilities, which limits your choice.

[CaptainZaysh]

Terror_K wrote...

Uh... that was kind of my point: I think it's silly that a non-tech class can use an omni-tool so well.

Yeah but why do you think it's silly?  All Engineer Shep is doing to unleash Cryo Blasts is point the omni-tool at something, and press a button.  I don't see how barring tech attacks from soldiers is any different from barring incendiary ammo from engineers.

[Il Divo]

TheKillerAngel wrote...

That was a gameplay concession. I absolutely hated the "frogger" decryption of ME1 - if I could even decrypt something in the first place. If you did not have a tech skill leveled up you were essentially forced to bring a squad member with tech abilities, which limits your choice.

While I really did hate the tech/hacking system in Mass Effect, the problem is not limiting choice. Squad-based RPGs have always functioned like this. Dragon Age: Origins for example typically requires mages for healing which limits choice because no other class could main-heal. RPG mechanics are built around your character becoming specialized in one focus and requiring other characters to complement your skill set.

Modifié par Il Divo, 09 juin 2011 - 12:30 .

[aftohsix]

Bozorgmehr wrote...


Are you saying you've encountered an enemy squad with mechs, husks and organics in it?

I'm not saying ammo is useless; I'm saying switching ammo while you're in combat is useless.

I think someone should try playing the game on Insanity and then come back here and tell us what he thinks then.  There are multiple fights in the game which mix up enemies with shields, armor and barriers.  Switching out your ammo type to be the most effective is one of the best ways to prevail.

[Terror_K]

TheKillerAngel wrote...

That was a gameplay concession. I absolutely hated the "frogger" decryption of ME1 - if I could even decrypt something in the first place. If you did not have a tech skill leveled up you were essentially forced to bring a squad member with tech abilities, which limits your choice.

Which is a good thing, IMO. ME2 offers you too mcuh freedom and allows Shepard to be too much of a Master of All Trades. classes should be defined by their limitations and what they can't do as much as what they can, and it should make sense. It makes no sense for a non-tech class to be to adept at tech-based skills, and if they are it robs the tech classes of one of their key abilities and neuters them somewhat. It's like giving a Fighter lockpit and trapsetting ablitities without the need of a skill in a fantasy RPG: it just makes the Rogue/Thief class lesser for it and doesn't restrict the Fighter enough.

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Yeah but why do you think it's silly?  All Engineer Shep is doing to unleash Cryo Blasts is point the omni-tool at something, and press a button.  I don't see how barring tech attacks from soldiers is any different from barring incendiary ammo from engineers.

There's more to tech-based attacks than that; that's just what it seems like on-screen. The difference is that incendiary ammo has been already established as a weapon mod in the original game, and that weapon mods were established as being simple plug'n'play devices that were part of weapons that were simple and easy to use, that any class could use and you didn't need any training for.

To put it simply, what BioWare are essentially saying with ME1 only a mechanic can hotwire, repair and do maintenance work on a car, but anybody can put a tape in the car stereo. But now in ME2, anybody can hotwire, repair and maintain a car, but only a few select people can put a tape in the car stereo. How does that in any way make sense?

Modifié par Terror_K, 09 juin 2011 - 12:35 .

[Someone With Mass]

People seem to be unaware that the ammo mods in ME1 were restricted to classes too.

[Terror_K]

Someone With Mass wrote...

People seem to be unaware that the ammo mods in ME1 were restricted to classes too.

What are you talking about? They weren't. At all. Ever.