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Why the hate on Ammo Powers?


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#126
LPPrince

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CaptainZaysh wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

That'd be a bad idea. Giving access to all ammo types makes sense because its just an ammo type. Takes no additional training to learn how to put Incendiary or Tungsten ammo into your gun.

Tech powers and Biotics however require vast amounts of work to master.


I agree with you on biotics.  But tech powers are just pressing one button.  Takes no additional training to learn how to press the TACTICAL CLOAK button.


When I think of the tech attacks, I don't think of singular buttons that do something. I think of them as technical things that could be messed up if done incorrectly. Maybe I'm seeing it incorrectly, I don't know.

#127
CaptainZaysh

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LPPrince wrote...

When I think of the tech attacks, I don't think of singular buttons that do something. I think of them as technical things that could be messed up if done incorrectly. Maybe I'm seeing it incorrectly, I don't know.


They're activated instantly, so they can't possibly be more involved than pressing a button.

#128
Halo Quea

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LPPrince wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

That'd be a bad idea. Giving access to all ammo types makes sense because its just an ammo type. Takes no additional training to learn how to put Incendiary or Tungsten ammo into your gun.

Tech powers and Biotics however require vast amounts of work to master.


I agree with you on biotics.  But tech powers are just pressing one button.  Takes no additional training to learn how to press the TACTICAL CLOAK button.


When I think of the tech attacks, I don't think of singular buttons that do something. I think of them as technical things that could be messed up if done incorrectly. Maybe I'm seeing it incorrectly, I don't know.


Actually I think you both could be correct. 

I agree with LPPrince's view that certain classes should have advantages using specific abilities and/or equipment/technology.   But let's say I'm a soldier, but I want the tech-stealth abilities of the Infiltrator.  The Infiltrator wouldn't need to spend any points on that skill, but the soldier  should have to invest a few points (training) to gain those abilities.

This would balance things out.  It would even allow people to basically mold their own class.

#129
LPPrince

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CaptainZaysh wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

When I think of the tech attacks, I don't think of singular buttons that do something. I think of them as technical things that could be messed up if done incorrectly. Maybe I'm seeing it incorrectly, I don't know.


They're activated instantly, so they can't possibly be more involved than pressing a button.


Yeah, and we can throw 1000 biotics without getting tired when the lore says we're done after about three.

But I'll concede. I just imagine it takes work to know what you're doing tech wise.

Soldiers went through hell for combat training.

Biotics almost died going through biotic training.

I can't imagine techs just picked up an omni tool and started pressing buttons.

#130
Bozorgmehr

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LPPrince wrote...

Soldiers went through hell for combat training.

Biotics almost died going through biotic training.

I can't imagine techs just picked up an omni tool and started pressing buttons.


All Sheps are soldiers, all Sheps are highly trained in combat. There is no difference between an Adept Shep and a Soldier Shep in this regard. The difference lies in additional 'training'; Adepts have implants, Soldiers are genetically enhanced cyborgs.

Any fool can buy a computer and press buttons, only those with skill and knowledge about electronic systems will be able to hack. Ask your grandma if she can press a button on a keyboard; then ask her if she can hack the CIA database :)

#131
LPPrince

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That's my point about techs. I feel like what they do is not as simple as it being a feature on an omni tool.

#132
Kronner

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I don't mind Ammo Powers, it should result in a better gameplay as long as it's implemented well. And yes, I do realize "ammo mods" make more sense, but gameplay is much more important for me.

#133
Bozorgmehr

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Kronner wrote...

I don't mind Ammo Powers, it should result in a better gameplay as long as it's implemented well. And yes, I do realize "ammo mods" make more sense, but gameplay is much more important for me.


Agreed, gameplay is what matters most. But I don't see how something which isn't of use in combat improves gameplay - if ammo powers work like they do in ME2, there is no difference between ammo mods and ammo powers. Either way, ammo is equipped before going into combat.

Ammo powers simply reduce the number of (power) options for the combat classes; looks more like limiting gameplay to me.

#134
CaptainZaysh

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Your grandma could hack a geth if all she had to do was hit the AI Hack button. Clearly the omni-tool is doing all the work, here. It's just another weapon.

#135
In Exile

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CaptainZaysh wrote...

They're activated instantly, so they can't possibly be more involved than pressing a button.


Or, they could involve handling the weapon differently because of the different effects of the bullet, and require special training to use in a way that doesn't end with 'hands melted or frozen''.

It comes right back down to the problem of the soldier having any powers at all. I suppose you could go wth passive buffs.

#136
Ahglock

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1. I don;t like them as powers when they should be gear.
1a. I can overlook that for game play reasons.
2. The game play sucked on them. It ended up just being another passive ability since changing ammo did not help much, the only important parts were the CC since shields/amour melted so fast even without the power on. And CC when attached to ridiculous DPS while useful is marginally useful since you kill the target so damn fast anyways.(combat classes that is, AR, point blank shot gun charges etc.)

Since it looks like they are in I would want them changed so at least some of my issues are fixed. Make defenses strong enough that the ammo makes a difference, remove the cool down and animation so changing ammo mid fight is a good idea, something.

#137
CaptainZaysh

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@In Exile: I was actually referring to the tech attacks there. If every class can use all ammo types, they should all also be able to use all tech attack types and armour powers as well.

#138
Ahglock

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CaptainZaysh wrote...

@In Exile: I was actually referring to the tech attacks there. If every class can use all ammo types, they should all also be able to use all tech attack types and armour powers as well.


I think the assumption is you need mad haxors skils to get a omni tool to do the things they get it to do.  I can use my mouse and keyboard perfectly fine, build a computer, install crap etc.  But if you want me to program something give me 3 years to go back to shcool.  

Ammo just does not fel like that.  Super sci-fi computer thing does. 

#139
RunicDragons

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What? I love the ammo powers. Armor Piercing ammo power is so overpowered! I love it!

#140
goofyomnivore

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I hate the graphic they put on your gun,
I hate that they're restricted to certain classes/bonus powers.
I hate that some are useless(Shredder) while others are uber(Inferno).
I hate that they're combat powers in the first place.. use those power slots for things like Carnage.

I'm not 100% against them.. but the Mass Effect 2 way of using them wasn't my cup of tea.

#141
Navari

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I think that it would be more fun, if it still were exclusive for the soldier, and they were instant and had no cooldown, so it would actually be better to swap it sometimes, than lose a second or two to get out another adrenaline rush

#142
CaptainZaysh

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@ahglock: I'm not saying soldiers could *write* the AI Hacking or Incendiary Blast apps, any more than they could build a Revenant light machine gun. But clearly, during combat Engineer Shepard is not writing a new app to make that geth go haywire. He's using an app on his omni-tool. There's no reason Soldier Shep can't do *that*.

#143
BDelacroix

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I used them. My only problem with them is some of my new hires would get a squad wide version and keep changing what I'm using.

#144
InfiniteCuts

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LPPrince wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

That'd be a bad idea. Giving access to all ammo types makes sense because its just an ammo type. Takes no additional training to learn how to put Incendiary or Tungsten ammo into your gun.

Tech powers and Biotics however require vast amounts of work to master.


I agree with you on biotics.  But tech powers are just pressing one button.  Takes no additional training to learn how to press the TACTICAL CLOAK button.


When I think of the tech attacks, I don't think of singular buttons that do something. I think of them as technical things that could be messed up if done incorrectly. Maybe I'm seeing it incorrectly, I don't know.


I agree with this point-of-view... the differences between the classes is not such much what they have access to but what they prefer to use from a role-playing perspective (i.e. what their expertise is).  As such, it wouldn't make sense for an Adept to have access to all kinds of tech talents.  Everyone uses firearms, on the other hand, so different types of ammo should be available to all.  There's this meta-gaming aspect that people don't consider when they suggest all classes have access to any talent they want.

#145
In Exile

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CaptainZaysh wrote...

@In Exile: I was actually referring to the tech attacks there. If every class can use all ammo types, they should all also be able to use all tech attack types and armour powers as well.


But it's not clear that using a tech attack is as simple as pushing a button.

#146
Radwar

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Ammo as an ability makes absolutely no sense, how do you get better at shooting a certain type of ammo? Bioware did it right in Mass Effect 1 by making them mods that you just equiped. That way anyone could equipe them and there were more types in ME1. The joy of shooting High Explosive Rounds with a sniper rifle, taking out multiple enemies with the blast.

All ammo types in ME1
http://masseffect.wi...i/Ammo_Upgrades

Modifié par Radwar, 09 juin 2011 - 05:57 .


#147
CaptainZaysh

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Observe one. They're triggered so fast there's no way they can take anything more than a button press.

#148
CaptainZaysh

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@Radwar: same with tech attacks. How do you get better at Cryo Blast? Does gaining the loyalty of your squadmates make absolute zero somehow get colder?

#149
In Exile

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CaptainZaysh wrote...

Observe one. They're triggered so fast there's no way they can take anything more than a button press.


I wouldn't go by what the gameplay shows versus what the lore is. 2+ uses of biotics should cause headaches, nosebleeds and generally nearly starve a biotic.

#150
Waltzingbear

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Is this a thread about ammo powers or on whether the Soldier class is interesting or not, because the discussion is not quite the same.

Ammo powers could logically be used by any class as well as many of other abilities that are restricted to other classes. You can form theories about why it does or doesn't make sense for an entire month now, I don't see why it really matters.

If the ammo powers exclusivity to combat classes terribly bothers your sense of credibility of the ME universe that's one thing; if you're concerned about the gameplay itself that's another. I don't see how the former subject could be used to counter-argue the latter.

If we put ammo aside for a moment, if you give the Soldier a few new abilities that would behave as counterparts of current biotic/tech powers, I don't see how the class gets any more interesting as a whole or how the gameplay is improved; all you do is create a class that only very slightly differs from others and plays almost the same way.

The soldier does have its own unique abilities, just because you can't bind it to a number doesn't mean it's not there.
First of all the Soldier receive time dilation when sprinting which slows down the entire world.
Secondly you get access to the most guns which allows you to adapt to the situation and change your fighting style. Although you don't get a direct effect like using power X to get Y damage from Z, it adds flexibility that other classes lack, and the ability to switch to your SMG is not the same as switching to your Assault or Sinper Rifle.
Thirdly the ability to change ammo powers according to the situation should keep you busy juggling between them.

The idea is good, the execution is bad.
- There isn't a real incentive to use Shotguns or Pistol when you can use your Assault Rifle and Sniper Rifle.
- ARush is so powerful and Concussive Shot so useless that a Soldier ends up only using ARush and the bonus power. (From what I've seen in ME3 this has been addressed.)
- People don't really try new playstyles with the Soldier because it's so convenient to hang back in cover with your Rifle and spam ARush, something that a Vanguard can't do very well.
- Ammo powers don't offer a real bonus against different types of enemies and are clumsy to change, which makes it better to just use ARush even at that 1.5 seconds it takes to recharge, and players usually end up applying one ammo power at the start of the mission and forget about it.

Another thing I'd like to add is that the Soldier can be as interesting as you play it. It's very easy to take the Mattock and cut through enemies like butter with ARush and it could get repetitive and dull, but you don't have to play like that. Take a shotgun and try to go against suicidal odds and see what you can do.