175 réponses à ce sujet

[CaptainZaysh]

@InfiniteCuts: all classes use omni-tools as well as using weapons. So by your own logic, different types of tech attack should be available for all.

[InfiniteCuts]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

@InfiniteCuts: all classes use omni-tools as well as using weapons. So by your own logic, different types of tech attack should be available for all.

No.  Each class specializes in a certain type of combat that fits within the context of the game's world, not just a free-for-all of talents.  An engineer may have gone through the same boot camp an adept did, but somewhere along the line they diverged and focused on technology and its applications in combat.  Everyone has gone through weapons trainining... there is no specialization for how to load ammo in the military.  If you wield a weapon, you should be able to load it with any type of compatible ammunition.  Completely different things, here.

[Halo Quea]

Press A for Awesome Ammo!

[CaptainZaysh]

@Infinite: so explain why pressing the Cryo Blast button isn't something a soldier would be trained how to do.

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

@In Exile: I was actually referring to the tech attacks there. If every class can use all ammo types, they should all also be able to use all tech attack types and armour powers as well.

But it's not clear that using a tech attack is as simple as pushing a button.

Actually, I think it's clear that it isn't that simple . If everyone could hack AIs by pushing a button, everyone would be issued hacking tools.

[CaptainZaysh]

Alan: just like if everyone could load incendiary ammo into a weapon, everybody would be issued incendiary ammo?

[Waltzingbear]

AlanC9 wrote...

Actually, I think it's clear that it isn't that simple . If everyone could hack AIs by pushing a button, everyone would be issued hacking tools.

If it's more complex than pushing a button why is it happening in a split second?

[CaptainZaysh]

Alan: just like if everybody could load incendiary ammo into a weapon, everybody would be issued with it?

[darth_lopez]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

@Infinite: so explain why pressing the Cryo Blast button isn't something a soldier would be trained how to do.

Better question is, if all powers are "tech grenades" short of biotics (i.e.overload, fire attack from ME 2, cryo plast, incidiary grenades (zead) flash bangs(kasumi) any that i may have forgotten..) Why do soldiers of all people Not have acess to all of them? Aren't soldiers trained to use Grenades?

If you honestly feel that everyone should have access to all types of ammo like ME 1 i can't really blame you but at this point Everyone should have access to all types of special attacks because well they're packaged in grenade form.
(hoping my point is made here)


Honestly i don't see what's wrong with classes having special ammo it makes more sense to me then "oh i picked it up".  Different ammo like incidiary or cryo rounds could have different effects on the weapon not just the round perhaps the class is trained to handle and counteract those negative side effects?

Modifié par darth_lopez, 09 juin 2011 - 07:51 .

[tonnactus]

If ammo "powers" wouldnt be restricted to classes,no one would bother.

[Terror_K]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Alan: just like if everybody could load incendiary ammo into a weapon, everybody would be issued with it?

Everybody could in ME1. Again, weapon mods --which they still technically are in ME2 according to the lore, even if they're presented as powers-- are simply plug'n'play devices. If you can plug a video game cartridge into a video game console or put batteries into something, you can use a weapon mod. Tech skills and attacks are different: they require training and skill to do. If just anybody with an omni-tool could hack a Geth, then I suspect Eden Prime would have been a very different outcome and the quarians wouldn't have as many issues with the Geth as they do. You just don't seem to be able to get this into your head because you keep assuming every tech-based thing is a simple button press because it happens so fast in the game. Newsflash: gameplay always slightly differs from the lore to a degree because it needs to to keep a good pace and balance things. That's why tech-attacks don't take half a minute or so to accomplish and why biotics aren't either spent and dried up or lying on the ground with a pool of blood forming around their heads after using more than a few attacks, as well as not packing quite the punch that the lore says biotics should (except in certain cutscenes).

[JayhartRIC]

Ammo types are ammo powers cause of thermal clips.

[Lumikki]

Yeah, I my self did not much like ammo powers, they feeled wrong, more like bionic power than technological item. I liked also more when ammos was ammos. But it's not so bad, I can live with it.

Oh, Hello: Terror_K long time no see.

[CaptainZaysh]

Terror_K wrote...

Again, weapon mods --which they still technically are in ME2 according to the lore, even if they're presented as powers-- are simply plug'n'play devices. If you can plug a video game cartridge into a video game console or put batteries into something, you can use a weapon mod. Tech skills and attacks are different: they require training and skill to do. If just anybody with an omni-tool could hack a Geth, then I suspect Eden Prime would have been a very different outcome and the quarians wouldn't have as many issues with the Geth as they do. You just don't seem to be able to get this into your head because you keep assuming every tech-based thing is a simple button press because it happens so fast in the game. Newsflash: gameplay always slightly differs from the lore to a degree because it needs to to keep a good pace and balance things. That's why tech-attacks don't take half a minute or so to accomplish and why biotics aren't either spent and dried up or lying on the ground with a pool of blood forming around their heads after using more than a few attacks, as well as not packing quite the punch that the lore says biotics should (except in certain cutscenes).

Which is precisely the point I've been trying to make!  That's the very reason Engineers don't get to use incendiary ammo.

[Terror_K]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Again, weapon mods --which they still technically are in ME2 according to the lore, even if they're presented as powers-- are simply plug'n'play devices. If you can plug a video game cartridge into a video game console or put batteries into something, you can use a weapon mod. Tech skills and attacks are different: they require training and skill to do. If just anybody with an omni-tool could hack a Geth, then I suspect Eden Prime would have been a very different outcome and the quarians wouldn't have as many issues with the Geth as they do. You just don't seem to be able to get this into your head because you keep assuming every tech-based thing is a simple button press because it happens so fast in the game. Newsflash: gameplay always slightly differs from the lore to a degree because it needs to to keep a good pace and balance things. That's why tech-attacks don't take half a minute or so to accomplish and why biotics aren't either spent and dried up or lying on the ground with a pool of blood forming around their heads after using more than a few attacks, as well as not packing quite the punch that the lore says biotics should (except in certain cutscenes).

Which is precisely the point I've been trying to make!  That's the very reason Engineers don't get to use incendiary ammo.

But it doesn't make any sense. The biotics and tech stuff has merely been sped up for the sake of combat, which makes sense from a gameplay perspective. Putting an arbritrary limitation on the ability for classes to use ammo types with no real reasoning when the restriction wasn't there before doesn't. The only possible explanation is that the devs couldn't think of any decent powers to give Soldiers (and their hybrid classes) so took the easy way out by simply tossing weapon mods in there as powers. So you either have to admit that the change makes no sense, or you have to admit that the devs did a lazy, half-assed job with the Soldier's powers. Which is it?

And beyond that much of the point that was being made is that ammo mods aren't technically skills at all, but more accurately a piece of equipment, and that it's silly to turn a piece of equipment into a skill. That'd be like having a fantasy RPG and saying, "anybody can use a bow in the game, but only the Rogue class can use it because only they have the 'Arrow' skill/power."

Modifié par Terror_K, 10 juin 2011 - 09:05 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Terror_K wrote...

But it doesn't make any sense.

It makes just as much sense as the idea that Shepard can somehow manipulate time in order to carry out complicated, time consuming hacking attacks in a split second.

Terror_K wrote...
The biotics and tech stuff has merely been sped up for the sake of combat, which makes sense from a gameplay perspective. Putting an arbritrary limitation on the ability for classes to use ammo types with no real reasoning when the restriction wasn't there before doesn't.

Sure it does, it's balance.  It's the same reason Soldiers don't get Tactical Cloak.

Terror_K wrote...
The only possible explanation is that the devs couldn't think of any decent powers to give Soldiers (and their hybrid classes) so took the easy way out by simply tossing weapon mods in there as powers. So you either have to admit that the change makes no sense, or you have to admit that the devs did a lazy, half-assed job with the Soldier's powers. Which is it?

Mass Effect 2 is obviously not the product of lazy, half-assed workers.  What I suspect is that they experimented with various powers and took the route they felt to be the optimum gameplay solution.

Terror_K wrote...
And beyond that much of the point that was being made is that ammo mods aren't technically skills at all, but more accurately a piece of equipment, and that it's silly to turn a piece of equipment into a skill. That'd be like having a fantasy RPG and saying, "anybody can use a bow in the game, but only the Rogue class can use it because only they have the 'Arrow' skill/power."

Or a sci-fi RPG and saying, "anybody can wear N7 armour in the game, but only the Infiltrator can use the adaptive camouflage button because only they have the 'Tactical Cloak' power."  It's exactly the same, yet you seem to be cool with one and anti- the other.  I can't figure it out.

[TexasToast712]

Everyone that hates Ammo powers needs to take off them rosey red tinted glasses they are wearing and play more ME2.

[SeaSquared]

I guess now would be a good time to mention that all "powers" in the game require the user to use their nervous system and their sheer willpower to make them happen, if you dont understand look up biotics in the codex or online because all powers require the same base skill.

The difference is that while biotic require interfacing with their biotic implants/bioamps tech and combat powers require interfacing with an omnitool,suit or armor/clothing, or other surgical implants.

This is why Omnitools seemingly auto active when the user needs them without the need to press controls (usually) or go through menus. Its also why non biotic powers still require a cooldown.

the reason that only certain classes can use certain ammo powers is the same reason that a vanquard can pull but not warp while a sentienal is the opposite, the powers require different techniques from the user that must be mastered individually.

The End

[Memphis Slim]

Hopefully BW has fixed the glitch that won't let Shepard de-select an ammo power. Squaddies can, but I'm not allowed to. A big pain when I want to turn off Incendiary Ammo so that I can use Zaeed's Squad Disruptor Ammo.

[SeaSquared]

[quote]clerkenwell wrote...

Frag Grenades seem to be in a new category as they apparently do not trigger any cooldown. Not sure how they'll fit in exactly, if they require you to pick up new grenades or what. We'll have to see. Either way, it seems clear that giving a class multiple spammable, no cooldown powers is a recipe for OPness. Bad idea.

As far as I understand grenades are the new all-class explosives to replace heavy weapons from ME2 (thank God) and the "grenades"/exploding shuriken from ME1 and as such are OP in their power, but limited in ammo.

[AlanC9]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Alan: just like if everyone could load incendiary ammo into a weapon, everybody would be issued incendiary ammo?

Sure. Ammo powers are irrational. I suppose the best available rationalization for them is that someone who is untrained with a particular kind of ammo might incinerate himself or something, but that's pretty weak.

[Ahglock]

In Exile wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Observe one. They're triggered so fast there's no way they can take anything more than a button press.

I wouldn't go by what the gameplay shows versus what the lore is. 2+ uses of biotics should cause headaches, nosebleeds and generally nearly starve a biotic.

Bitoics in the codex or games do not imply that they are nearly that limited.  The novels decided that, but I am not sure I like making the novels the official lore on all subjects.  To me it is more one designers take on things.  

Going back to the omni-tool  We just don;t know what it takes ot control them.  Maybe because I played way too much Shadowrun and Cyberpunk 2020 I just kind of assumed there was a cybernetic interface as well as the button touches so more was happening there than we know.  The codex never really explains how they work beyond the what they can do stage.  

[sp0ck 06]

I liked ammo powers, actually. Besides, as a Soldier you really shouldn't be using much other than Adrenaline Rush anyways.