173 réponses à ce sujet

[Pasquale1234]

In Exile wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...
What made you feel like you were making items yourself? The system was ordering items from a catalogue that other crafters made.

I didn't feel like I made them myself. But I never felt that way in a game, regardless of what the game was (beside TW1), because it was always press the magic button type build. In TW1, you could use interchangeable parts to build a potion and potentially, create new recepies on your own. It felt like actual building.

I had the sense that I (or a follower) was making the items in DAO, because I had to obtain flasks and sometimes distillation, concentration, corruption agents in order to make them.  Once you had all of the ingredients, you could make them anywhere.  In DA2, you "order" them and pay someone else to make them for you.

[KennethAFTopp]

I would not mind a Barter Skill either, that would be very neat.
Maybe a Spot or something skill you know for traps.

[fightright2]

Filament wrote...

fightright2 wrote...

I thought the same. Uh, I am paying for someone else's knowledge and know-how. It's like going to a restuarant and ordering a dish that you have to have the recipe for.

I think of it more like going to a tattoo artist and asking them to give you a custom tattoo of a picture you brought along with you.

But do you know where to get the tattoo inks/supplies and the machine and know how to actually execute the strokes and method to get the results of that picture?


I don't think I can see it that way since it calls for the recipe which means having the knowledge of ingredients and instructions/skill to successfully make it.

With a tattoo, we just know what the end results should be.

It's like in order to go to the hair salon they would require beforehand the the necessary clippers, scissors, coloring utensils, and dye chemicals to get the results we want.

People don't go to the salon knowing what to get beforehand. They only know what they want for the end results. 

It's not just their service (manual labor) I am purchasing, it's their knowledge and skill.

[In Exile]

Pasquale1234 wrote...
I had the sense that I (or a follower) was making the items in DAO, because I had to obtain flasks and sometimes distillation, concentration, corruption agents in order to make them.  Once you had all of the ingredients, you could make them anywhere.  In DA2, you "order" them and pay someone else to make them for you.

But having a crafting bench doesn't mean you don't make them yourself. I felt that the item built itself.

[EEmotion]

Why have skills when you can't use them however you want anyway? hell i can't even cast a fireball on this building over here ... or wait i can but it won't burn GREAT... All rpg feeling in the game just went out the window..


They should focus on such stuff instead of these pointless stuff like skills back when you can't even use them anyway..
Hell i can''t even kill a random commoner... seriously...


(and yeah ppl with brains there is no need to tell me i know already...

Modifié par EEmotion, 09 juin 2011 - 07:30 .

[Pasquale1234]

In Exile wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...
I had the sense that I (or a follower) was making the items in DAO, because I had to obtain flasks and sometimes distillation, concentration, corruption agents in order to make them.  Once you had all of the ingredients, you could make them anywhere.  In DA2, you "order" them and pay someone else to make them for you.

But having a crafting bench doesn't mean you don't make them yourself. I felt that the item built itself.

Okay - I guess we experienced it differently.

Another big difference in my mind was the cost.  You could make $ crafting and selling items in DAO, but you pay for them in DA2.

[KennethAFTopp]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...
I can understand why they did the whole 'buy crafted items from list' thing they did this time, but not a fan of it.

Did you not like it or did you dislike it? The former is a negation of a positive, the latter is simply a negative. (ie. indifference vs. negativity)

I know you didn't ask me, but I just wanted to say that there were alot of things in DA2 it seemed like you weren't interested in having, but felt you had to add just to please the RPG side of things and in the end made alot of them insubstantial to overall picture you wanted to paint.
Crafting was one and Loot was another.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

How about...
Coercion modified by strength to determine one's ability to intimidate.
Coercion modified by cunning to determine one's ability to persuade.
Coercion modified by magic to gain some mind-control effect.
So each class would have a primary coercion method.

As long as each class could use any of them.  No more pigeon-holing my character based on his class.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...
I had the sense that I (or a follower) was making the items in DAO, because I had to obtain flasks and sometimes distillation, concentration, corruption agents in order to make them.  Once you had all of the ingredients, you could make them anywhere.  In DA2, you "order" them and pay someone else to make them for you.

But having a crafting bench doesn't mean you don't make them yourself. I felt that the item built itself.

It feels more like I made it if I had to provide the materials.  Make me have the components handy, not just know where to get them.

I'm going to refer back to the magic system in Ultima IV.  In U4, each spell was assembled from components in advance, so if you wanted to cast Fireball you needed to have prepared a Fireball previously by mixing the components together.

U5 made this simpler, allowing you to cast any spell for which you had the components, without you having to decide in advance which spells you wanted.  So, while U4 made you choose ahead of time whether you were going to use that unit of Ginseng in a Cure spell or a Sleep spell, U5 only required that you have the Ginseng, and you could make decisions on the fly.

Both of those worked well.  But they both required that you have the stuff with you in appropriate quantities before you did anything with it.

I would like crafting to work in a similar way.  You need to have the materials with you in order to make something out of them.

[Teddie Sage]

They actually annoyed me. I'd rather have a more tweaked dialogue wheel for coercion and anything speech related. DA2's crafting was actually done right, I don't want it to revert to its old way. You don't need skills in DA2 to be good, which makes the game fun and faster to play. Any skills in DA2 were basically just there to make your game easier. They all got fused with the classes, so I don't think it's wrong, because it's like we got all of them for free in DA2 except stealing. Stealing ability should be available to rogues as soon as possible. In the sabotage or another skill tree. I'm pretty sure a few people didn't even steal their enemies in DAO.

[Melca36]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...
I can understand why they did the whole 'buy crafted items from list' thing they did this time, but not a fan of it.

Did you not like it or did you dislike it? The former is a negation of a positive, the latter is simply a negative. (ie. indifference vs. negativity)

Didn't hate it and could understand the logic of it.   After the 5th playthrough, it just wasn't as fun anymore.


I also kept thinking how great it would be if we could find ten torn trowsers and they be rewoven back to cloth. Ge fragments could have been untilized for something too.

Traps would have come in handy during some battles.

Coercion could have an effect on friendship/rivalry

[Melca36]

Teddie Sage wrote...

They actually annoyed me. I'd rather have a more tweaked dialogue wheel for coercion and anything speech related. DA2's crafting was actually done right, I don't want it to revert to its old way. You don't need skills in DA2 to be good, which makes the game fun and faster to play. Any skills in DA2 were basically just there to make your game easier. They all got fused with the classes, so I don't think it's wrong, because it's like we got all of them for free in DA2 except stealing. Stealing ability should be available to rogues as soon as possible. In the sabotage or another skill tree. I'm pretty sure a few people didn't even steal their enemies in DAO.

Definitely didn't steal much....

I truly missed traps though. Traps would have come in handy for some of the more difficult battles.

[Teddie Sage]

Melca36 wrote...

Teddie Sage wrote...

They actually annoyed me. I'd rather have a more tweaked dialogue wheel for coercion and anything speech related. DA2's crafting was actually done right, I don't want it to revert to its old way. You don't need skills in DA2 to be good, which makes the game fun and faster to play. Any skills in DA2 were basically just there to make your game easier. They all got fused with the classes, so I don't think it's wrong, because it's like we got all of them for free in DA2 except stealing. Stealing ability should be available to rogues as soon as possible. In the sabotage or another skill tree. I'm pretty sure a few people didn't even steal their enemies in DAO.

Definitely didn't steal much....

I truly missed traps though. Traps would have come in handy for some of the more difficult battles.

I'm pretty sure we could still make traps... Maybe I played the game too fast. Anyways, traps should be warriors exclusive if  rogues get the poisons. XD Mages already have potions, but everyone could craft them in DA2, which is unfair.

[Patchwork]

The only traps I can think of are the two glyphs in the creation tree.

Skills, things like alchemy, charisma, survival and thief talents should be avaliable to all regardless of class to create more individual builds.

Alchemy- potions and posions.
Charisma- barter and luck
Survival- spotting traps, identifying enemies and marking loot locations.
Thief- trap making and pick pocketing.

I like the crafting table idea in DA2 and that the ingredients didn't clog up the inventory but went straight to the crafting table 'inventory'. I hated the crafting process taken completely out of my hands.

[Huntress]

I don't miss the:" go to circle tower buy 2000 lyrium dust, go back to denerim buy all type of flasks to make 1 type of potion because it sells for more" " danm Morrigan is not level 14, 1 more level to go, bag is full.. lol?" " Morrigan level 14! then head to forest buy 2000 earthroot, gosh forgot to buy another type of flask, go back to denerim buy flask".

Do you make gold? yes is an hour to get the coins but yeah, you make 450g every 30 minutes or more, if you are a dwarf noble you make it somewhat faster, but still consumes alot of time.

I said denerim because is always cheaper and the guy at camp over charge for them, in Awakening was even worst making runes, but yea, some people like the screens I suppose, or the 20 some minutes standing in the same spot just crafting the items to sell, thats not counting the travel time back and forth and enemies fightings.

Worst part was if you forgot morrigan.. go to the camp pick her up, back to denerim... I am sure if morrigan has 2 more brain cells she would have made my warden drink every single one of the potions, thankfully she is always my warden friend! rofl

Coersion/threat hmm in DAO higher cunning give you higher possiblility to pass a coersion, str was threat.. So warrior with high str -> pass coersion, a rogue high cunning/dex -> pass coersion.
The highest place were you actually need is in Ozammar? one quest there that you should have high str or cunning, or landsmeet.

The build I miss is dual wield warriors, never made an archer, traper or stealing character, I dont have an archer in DA2 and my 2h warrior..well she is level 7 and i can't bring myself to play her, sorta the same to mages in DAO, but yea people miss the options to play any of this builds.
I like DA2 crafting system, no more going up and down or waiting to get to X level to learn the potion.. and if I find resource while questing, well thats great!

Modifié par Huntress, 09 juin 2011 - 10:33 .

[Loc'n'lol]

The way things are in DAO and DA2, I don't think this is necessary.

For a start, any skill that has effects in combat (and especially, only in combat) is effectively redundant with talents and should not exist in the first place. That leaves us dialogue options, which are interesting to develop, but :
NPCs don't need them, they have their own fixed personality and background, possibly branching at some point based on the PC's influence, but for the most part, if they intervene in dialogue, it's because they have specific 'skills' or knowledge as part of their character.

Now the player character is a little more blank than that, so he could pick a selection of dialogue affecting options, such as diplomacy, intimidation, specific lore... but the dominant persoanlity thing does a good enough job of representing the former (if you're playing mr nice polite guy all the time, I wouldn't expect to suddenly succed at difficult intimidations...), lying has been done by having you pick among several lines (so the player has to guess which one is most likely to fool the target, based on the premise, it's not a dice roll but it works well enough for me) which leaves us what the pc should or shouldn't know as part of their background. Well, all we need for that is some form of Origin stories or interactive background selection, and the rest is just based on exploration (the star dialog options represent that to an extent but are too few throughout DA2). There's no need to turn eveything into numbers when there are more intuitive systems available already.

As for crafting, well, I think restrictions on this just slow down gameplay with unnecessary and uninteresting 'complexities'. Leave the complex stuff for the core of the game, story and party-based combat. Party-based crafting on top of combat would make more sense if it was a persistant multiplayer-game (to force player interactions) or otherwise central to the gameplay, such as in a survival-themed game. But from the moment you have dedicated merchants and craftsmen NPCs available, there's no need to have the player characters handle it themselves, unless you want the majority of players not to bother with your system.

Modifié par _Loc_N_lol_, 09 juin 2011 - 10:28 .

[Serpieri Nei]

Alchemy – Crafting of Oils, Potions, and Salves – that can be used to temporally modify armor, weapons, or
yourself or companions.

Armorsmithing – able to build/customize your armors to fit your need – also change the look of the armor with another – Replace the peices of the armor with different variations. If I remember correctly this was available in neverwinter.

Coercion - the ability to force another party to behave in an involuntary manner (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats, rewards, or intimidation. 

Diplomacy - conducting negotiations – reaching compromises – peaceful solutions

Pick-pocketing - the stealing of money or other valuables from the person of a victim without their noticing the theft at the time. Example: Taking that healing potion before the enemy consumes it, stealing the key needed to gain access to a room.

Stealth – sending the rogue in first to scout the area – where the enemy is – setting up traps or eliminating some of guards or patrols

Trap-Making – setting up traps and lures to take out large group of enemies or delaying them . 

Weaponsmithing – able to build/customize your weapons to fit your needs – also change the look of the weapon – Pommel, grip, cross-guard, fuller, tip, and more. If I remember correctly this was available in neverwinter.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 09 juin 2011 - 10:41 .

[Sidney]

All of the crafting stuff is just junk that adds nothing to the game. If you want to imagine your character sitting around sharpening a blade groovey but it is an awful game mechanism unless the world (Fallout) has a real reason to have it. More trash to manage, more uninteresting screens and actions to take and for what? To get something that isn't anything more than the old Resident Evil Blue Herb+Green Herb mechanism. Sorry not worth it.

Speaking skills are also ridiculous. Hate coercion and diplomacy as a theory. Did you go to acting school to learn to be menacing? I'd rather have those things based on reputation (ala BG2) where if you are a bad bad man then when you threaten people they'll buy it.

Traps and such might be ok if they were somehow more useful but really if you can disarm a trap you should be able to set a trap. The fact that those were two different skills in dAO was awful so either have asingle traps and locks skill or have traps and locks.

[Serpieri Nei]

No one said anything about sitting around sharpening a blade. Give the player the ability to craft the way the blade/armor looks and different pieces to it for different effects has been around since the early days of RPG’s and is even found in FPS games. If people didn’t care for that, are you able to explain the high demand of armor and weapon mods? And here’s the best part, don’t like to craft then don’t but to say it adds nothing to the game is your opinion. Heck, I know a lot of people playing MMO’s, RPG’s, and FPS, that will disagree with you and would not want that customization taken away.

Actually, yes one has to learn to be menacing it isn’t as simple as punching a man in the noise and expecting him to bend over for you. Reputation is earned through words and actions, and can be applied to the level of diplomacy or coercion.

[ocruz3]

fightright2 wrote...

Filament wrote...

fightright2 wrote...

I thought the same. Uh, I am paying for someone else's knowledge and know-how. It's like going to a restuarant and ordering a dish that you have to have the recipe for.

I think of it more like going to a tattoo artist and asking them to give you a custom tattoo of a picture you brought along with you.

But do you know where to get the tattoo inks/supplies and the machine and know how to actually execute the strokes and method to get the results of that picture?


I don't think I can see it that way since it calls for the recipe which means having the knowledge of ingredients and instructions/skill to successfully make it.

With a tattoo, we just know what the end results should be.

It's like in order to go to the hair salon they would require beforehand the the necessary clippers, scissors, coloring utensils, and dye chemicals to get the results we want.

People don't go to the salon knowing what to get beforehand. They only know what they want for the end results. 

It's not just their service (manual labor) I am purchasing, it's their knowledge and skill.

While playing DA:O crafting and skills helped me immerse myself better into the world. If i ran out of potions, i would search through my bag hoping morrigan could make something out of it. It also brought a sense of companionship because each character brought something to the group besides their fighting skill, sort of like a role they played. 

Also I was in love with the trap system. Am I the only one who would set them up beforehand as a precaution?

[Ariella]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...
I can understand why they did the whole 'buy crafted items from list' thing they did this time, but not a fan of it.

Did you not like it or did you dislike it? The former is a negation of a positive, the latter is simply a negative. (ie. indifference vs. negativity)

Luke, my 2 cents is I liked it, especially the not having to carry around reagents part of the crafting. If skills were to be reimplemented, it'd be nice to at least keep that part of the crafting process, especially with limited bag space.

[Firky]

I'd like to see skills come back but with more meaningful effect. I always maxed coercion in Origins (out of habit) but I could not tell you what effect it had on the game, to save my life. (Assuming a madman tied me to a chair and threatened to kill me if I couldn't explain it to him.) And I never played without coercion because none of the other skills seemed worth choosing, apart from herbalism, and not playing with coercion and possibly missing stuff makes no sense. (I didn't picture no coercion making you like a half orc in Arcanum, if you get what I mean.)

Less skills than Origins, but more meaningful and balanced, with the propensity to really impact on plot/combat/etc. And, as many subtle consequences for NOT choosing a skill as for choosing it. (And a qunari love interest.)

[Ariella]

Firky wrote...

I'd like to see skills come back but with more meaningful effect. I always maxed coercion in Origins (out of habit) but I could not tell you what effect it had on the game, to save my life. (Assuming a madman tied me to a chair and threatened to kill me if I couldn't explain it to him.) And I never played without coercion because none of the other skills seemed worth choosing, apart from herbalism, and not playing with coercion and possibly missing stuff makes no sense. (I didn't picture no coercion making you like a half orc in Arcanum, if you get what I mean.)

Less skills than Origins, but more meaningful and balanced, with the propensity to really impact on plot/combat/etc. And, as many subtle consequences for NOT choosing a skill as for choosing it. (And a qunari love interest.)

This makes me think I'd like to see the ability tree adapted for skills, so rather than having Rank 4 in coercion/persuade, each "level" of skill does something different. X skill box allows you to take certain actions during conversations etc
(and I think I may have solved the interupt problem )

Edit: spelling (whatelse?)

Modifié par Ariella, 10 juin 2011 - 01:37 .

[Firky]

@Ariella It's like (much as I think Witcher 2 is a great RPG) it made no sense that persuasion axii was just built through using it in conversation, and not something you had to invest in, on the sign tree. I never failed an axii check because I always used it (Geralt has sexy hands,) and I never found an opportunity where I could only use persuade and intimidate. (But there probably was one.) To me, anyway, skills have to slot seamlessly into the wider context of the game. It would have been cool to invest in axii on the tree or, alternatively, put skill points into (like you say) different versions of persuade, intimidate, with noticable impact on the game. Or, fail to put points into persuade, intimidate, axii and pay the price.