173 réponses à ce sujet

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Because you didn't plan ahead.  The old crafting system rewarded forethought.  That's what I want from game mechanics, so I liked DAO's crafting.

Boring.  Go the ME2 route and eliminate inventory management.  Games should be about story, not inventory.

So the new system gives you what you want right when you want it.  You never have to work for it.

Gasp!  It's almost like it's a videogame designed for fun!  I agree with you though.  The BG/DAO methods were more work than entertainment and deserved to be removed.

Moreover, it no longer makes any economic sense within the setting.  As mentioned earlier in the thread, DAO's crafting system could generate income for the Warden.

:lol:    Economic sense!  That is too funny.  "Hello, sir, I magically have 75 fragile class bottle of blue juice in my small backpack!  Would you care to sample some!?  You'll agree they're delicious, or my name isn't Wiley Wardy Warden, purveyor of delicious numnum juice!" 

Edit:  Removed happy faces since they might seem mean.

Modifié par RinpocheSchnozberry, 10 juin 2011 - 04:43 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Sidney wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
The DA2 crafting system lets me customize my gear without having to be disechanted with the game.  (Do you see what I did there?)  DA2's system relies less on buying and grinding out drops, and more on wanting an enchant, finding the enchant, and having the enchant.  The filler steps are gone.

Customization without tedium? Imagine the possibilities!

It's almost like they wanted us to enjoy the game.  DUN DUN DUN!  :happy::happy::happy:

[SoulRebel_1979]

Crafting in DA2 is the only thing it did better then Origins. Crafting in Origins was awful, just awful. Almost as boring as planet scanning in ME2.

[Sylvius the Mad]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Boring.  Go the ME2 route and eliminate inventory management.  Games should be about story, not inventory.

Note here how Rinpoche presupposes that inventory is not part of the story, and then tries to hold that up as evidence that the two are different.

Nice circular reasoning.

Gasp!  It's almost like it's a videogame designed for fun! 

Inanity isn't fun.  it's just inane.

I agree with you though.  The BG/DAO methods were more work than entertainment and deserved to be removed.

There was hardly any crafting in BG.  There was crafting in NWN - perhaps that's what you meant - but NWN's crafting worked more like DA2's crafting, so I don't know what you're talking about.

The best crafting system I've ever seen in a game was in Everquest 2.  Not only did you need to gather materials, and have the relevant skills, but then you needed to apply those skills in response to feedback.  It was like turn-based combat, but for crafting.

Economic sense!  That is too funny.  "Hello, sir, I magically have 75 fragile class bottle of blue juice in my small backpack!  Would you care to sample some!?  You'll agree they're delicious, or my name isn't Wiley Wardy Warden, purveyor of delicious numnum juice!"

The credibility of the inventory system has nothing to do with the credibility of the economy, except insofar as the economy needs to suit an environment wherein someone can carry 75 fragile bottles in his backpack.

Have I mentioned that I didn't like DAO's inventory system?  I don't think I've done so yet today.

[Tirfan]

Crafting in DA2 was horrible - It wasn't great in Origins either but a bit better really.
My thought process regarding to DA2 crafting went a bit like this:

1) Hey, this is kind of cool, no more dragging millions of elfroot in limited inventory space
2) okay, some random npc crafts the things for me, but I still need the recipe, why?
3) Why is every recipe in the most random place possible?
4) Okay, it seems I can't craft this thing because I didn't go to a random place where I had nothing to do to find crafting resource x
5) I give up. I'll go without runes and consumables because I missed both the recipes and crafting resources for the things that would have had some use. I hate this sh*t.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Note here how Rinpoche presupposes that inventory is not part of the story, and then tries to hold that up as evidence that the two are different.

Nice circular reasoning.

Fact:  The game is not about inventory.  
Fact:  The game is about story.

Inventory isn't fun.  it's just inane.

Fixed! 

[Sylvius the Mad]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Fact:  The game is not about inventory.  
Fact:  The game is about story.

Aside from you just having directly contradicted yourself, I could do the same thing:

Fact: The game is not about Kirkwall.
Fact: The game is about cheese.

We've both made equally well supported statements.

[TEWR]

I despised DA:O's crafting system. Too tedious. I always use the glitch in Lothering that allows you to give Allison traps forever and you get 50 silver for it until I get 1500 sovereigns. The problem with that though was that I spent at least 2-3 days stuck in Lothering due to how long it took me to mass produce the traps (constantly pressing the same button) and the fact that she would only accept 3 traps at a time.


Potent lyrium potion making was even worse as I had to travel all across Ferelden just to get the necessary ingredients.


the Crafting system in DA2 was an improvement over the Origins system to me. But I wouldn't mind something less tedious but also fun. It can definitely be improved upon.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I despised DA:O's crafting system. Too tedious. I always use the glitch in Lothering that allows you to give Allison traps forever and you get 50 silver for it until I get 1500 sovereigns. The problem with that though was that I spent at least 2-3 days stuck in Lothering due to how long it took me to mass produce the traps (constantly pressing the same button) and the fact that she would only accept 3 traps at a time.

Potent lyrium potion making was even worse as I had to travel all across Ferelden just to get the necessary ingredients.

Making potent lyrium potions was optional.  You apparently decided it was something you wanted to do, despite the tedium.

I don't understand you people who make metagame decisions and then complain that you've done it.

[TEWR]

Crafting in Origins didn't serve much purpose though. I want crafting to serve more of a purpose than just stuff to sell.

I made traps, but I couldn't use them. If I set traps up in Redcliffe before the attack, they were gone by nightfall because the game registered the maps as 2 different maps. Not to mention enemies rarely stepped on them. The only time I've found traps useful was in the high dragon fight.

I made potions, but I could buy potions or pick them up off of corpses. Didn't seem like there was a point.


If I can craft armor from stuff I pick up, then the system is doing a much better job because what I craft is indeed useful

Though I would still like to craft stuff to sell, but I don't want that to be the only use crafting has.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 juin 2011 - 05:28 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Crafting in Origins didn't serve much purpose though. I want crafting to serve more of a purpose than just stuff to sell.

I made traps, but I couldn't use them. If I set traps up in Redcliffe before the attack, they were gone by nightfall because the game registered the maps as 2 different maps. Not to mention enemies rarely stepped on them. The only time I've found traps useful was in the high dragon fight.

Traps were hugely useful in the Deep Roads.   Scouting ahead to find enemies and laying traps amongst them (or laying traps at a defensible position and then drawing enemes toward them) worked brilliantly.

Sadly, DA2 mostly removed scouting ahead as an option, as well.

If I can craft armor from stuff I pick up, then the system is doing a much better job because what I craft is indeed useful

Though I would still like to craft stuff to sell, but I don't want that to be the only use crafting has.

I would agree.  DAO's crafting system was by no means ideal, but it was vastly better than the parody of a crafting system that found its way into DA2.

[Elhanan]

Personally, I barely touched Crafting in either game; only for Quests as a rule. The one exception was a solo Mage run in DAO when I required more potions.

That said, I would prefer DA2 for party play as it less tedious.

[fightright2]

For me, there is something oddly satisfying to collecting items needed for crafting. I don't like limitations on acquiring items. That is, needing to find something one-of-a-kind is one thing but I like endless resources such as herbs. To me, it only makes sense that once a season (time) passes I think it should have grown back to provide another opportunity to collect again to be used or sold.
 
I don't know what it is about collecting but I love it.
Perhaps, it gives me a sense of accomplishment to earn money to be able to get some additional items I want in a merchant's store. Having that alternative to make money instead of depending on quests delights me to no end when I finally get to purchase what I been striving for.

Another pleasure is stealing as a resource. Either by it being usable for crafting for weapons/armor/alchemy...etc. or just plain selling the items, I love having that as well.

I wish DA world was big enough to provide that. For that, we'd have to be able to go in houses and have an more areas to provide the vegetation and indication of time passing to be able to have that.

I'm all for endless crafting resources.

I know it's not likely going to happen...
but I can dream.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Fact:  The game is not about inventory.  
Fact:  The game is about story.

Aside from you just having directly contradicted yourself, I could do the same thing:

I think you're upset....  There's no contradiction there.  :D:D

[Sylvius the Mad]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Fact:  The game is not about inventory.  
Fact:  The game is about story.

Aside from you just having directly contradicted yourself, I could do the same thing:

I think you're upset....  There's no contradiction there.  :D:D

Then kindly explain to me what it is that excludes inventory from the story.  Why do you think those two things are separate?

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Making potent lyrium potions was optional.  You apparently decided it was something you wanted to do, despite the tedium.

I don't understand you people who make metagame decisions and then complain that you've done it.

Because it's fun to make sweet ass items?  Relax, bro.  It's just a game.

[_Aine_]

fightright2 wrote...

I know it's not likely going to happen...
but I can dream.

I will be right there with you in the dreaming department.  I would *love* to be able to break into houses, steal supplies, and have it *mean* something.  Be able to collect bits and pieces here, pickpocket stuff there, collect resources and then ultimately use those bits to craft something better.  Even pickpocket/steal stuff that simply makes it into lore (books, maps etc.) 

I remember in an old mmo I used to play I used to adore crafting, then selling stuff.  My husband used to laugh at me saying I was the only person he knew who would come home from work, to work in a game. lol  I enjoyed it!  

I think the reason these details get dropped by many games is that there has been a swing of attention to the more action oriented games, that and what used to take 3 years is now given much less time to be made AND has to look better and more cinematic than it did.  Part of me loves some of the changes, and part of me wants to be able to have a game that I *can* meander in, if I chose to, pickpocketing, crafting, just poking around without mobs jumping me every corner.  There are times I want to battle and there are times I wish I could do something else for a while too.  In a game that is an RPG or even RPG hybrid though, I guess I would like to see at least some of those details not stripped out altogether.  

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Then kindly explain to me what it is that excludes inventory from the story.  Why do you think those two things are separate?

Story.

Inventory.

[Sylvius the Mad]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Because it's fun to make sweet ass items?  Relax, bro.  It's just a game.

And a game can't contain features you don't like?  What do you mean when you say "it's just a game"?  What point are you trying to make.

I have no idea what the relevance of that statement is.  If you're trying to trivialise the importance of the issue, then clearly we disagree, but you're the one who should acquiesce because you obviously don't really care about the answer.  After all, "it's just a game".

[Sylvius the Mad]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Then kindly explain to me what it is that excludes inventory from the story.  Why do you think those two things are separate?

Story.

Inventory.

You've completely failed to answer the question.  A story is a narrative telling of a series of events.  Inventory management is an event.  Why do you think inventory management falls outside the story?

You're arbitrarily excluding it because you don't like it.  Your position is wholly foundationless.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 10 juin 2011 - 07:13 .

[Serpieri Nei]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Crafting in Origins didn't serve much purpose though. I want crafting to serve more of a purpose than just stuff to sell.

I made traps, but I couldn't use them. If I set traps up in Redcliffe before the attack, they were gone by nightfall because the game registered the maps as 2 different maps. Not to mention enemies rarely stepped on them. The only time I've found traps useful was in the high dragon fight.

I made potions, but I could buy potions or pick them up off of corpses. Didn't seem like there was a point.


If I can craft armor from stuff I pick up, then the system is doing a much better job because what I craft is indeed useful

Though I would still like to craft stuff to sell, but I don't want that to be the only use crafting has.

Crafting in Origins served many purposes - it gave you access to poisons, potions, runes oils, poisons, it gave you a way to generate revenue to afford all those expansive items available from each vendor, and it provided a method where you didn't get ripped off by the vendor's asking price.  Protaganist's have to earn a living just like the next guy, you can't hope that every cave has a dragon's hoard, only to find out that did the dragon was actually poor for its kind.

Traps were also very useable in origins in thinning the herd, creating choke points, protecting companion, and more. You’d be surprised how many encounters on nightmare became manageable by using all the tools at your disposal.

I would also love to see more uses to crafting, I loved the games that let me design the look of my weapons and armor, what abilities they had, and so on. Finding a Hammer called Thunderer no matter how godly it is, always get vendored since I don't care for it. So why not break it down and re-forge. Loved the Winter Forge Mod in Origins.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 10 juin 2011 - 07:21 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

You've completely failed to answer the question.  A story is a narrative telling of a series of events.  Inventory management is an event.  Why do you think inventory management falls outside the story?

You're arbitrarily excluding it because you don't like it.  Your position is wholly foundationless.

An apple is an apple.  An orange is an orange.  Story is story, inventory is inventory.  You can have one without the other.

UNLESS YOU SEW THEM TOGETHER.  APPRANGESTEIN COMES FOR US!!!

[Sylvius the Mad]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

An apple is an apple.  An orange is an orange.  Story is story, inventory is inventory.  You can have one without the other.

Do you really not see how you keep presupposing your conclusion?

Watch.

An apple is an apple.  An appleseed is an appleseed.  Each is a distinct item, but one is contained entirely within the other.

[fightright2]

shantisands wrote...

fightright2 wrote...

I know it's not likely going to happen...
but I can dream.

I will be right there with you in the dreaming department.  I would *love* to be able to break into houses, steal supplies, and have it *mean* something.  Be able to collect bits and pieces here, pickpocket stuff there, collect resources and then ultimately use those bits to craft something better.  Even pickpocket/steal stuff that simply makes it into lore (books, maps etc.) 

I remember in an old mmo I used to play I used to adore crafting, then selling stuff.  My husband used to laugh at me saying I was the only person he knew who would come home from work, to work in a game. lol  I enjoyed it!  

I think the reason these details get dropped by many games is that there has been a swing of attention to the more action oriented games, that and what used to take 3 years is now given much less time to be made AND has to look better and more cinematic than it did.  Part of me loves some of the changes, and part of me wants to be able to have a game that I *can* meander in, if I chose to, pickpocketing, crafting, just poking around without mobs jumping me every corner.  There are times I want to battle and there are times I wish I could do something else for a while too.  In a game that is an RPG or even RPG hybrid though, I guess I would like to see at least some of those details not stripped out altogether.  

Yes! Same here on the husband comment. He would laugh at me asking me now and then if I progress any further in the quests and I would say no but I was just about to get some shiny something from a store I was wanting.

And your right, I love to have the ability to meander around and if it so means that I might come across some creature roaming...sometimes I would risk it just to get that herb/bark/meat or whatever.

Man, talking about this makes me eager for Skyrim.

[Pasquale1234]

shantisands wrote...

fightright2 wrote...

I know it's not likely going to happen...
but I can dream.

I will be right there with you in the dreaming department.  I would *love* to be able to break into houses, steal supplies, and have it *mean* something.  Be able to collect bits and pieces here, pickpocket stuff there, collect resources and then ultimately use those bits to craft something better.  Even pickpocket/steal stuff that simply makes it into lore (books, maps etc.) 

I remember in an old mmo I used to play I used to adore crafting, then selling stuff.  My husband used to laugh at me saying I was the only person he knew who would come home from work, to work in a game. lol  I enjoyed it!  

I think the reason these details get dropped by many games is that there has been a swing of attention to the more action oriented games, that and what used to take 3 years is now given much less time to be made AND has to look better and more cinematic than it did.  Part of me loves some of the changes, and part of me wants to be able to have a game that I *can* meander in, if I chose to, pickpocketing, crafting, just poking around without mobs jumping me every corner.  There are times I want to battle and there are times I wish I could do something else for a while too.  In a game that is an RPG or even RPG hybrid though, I guess I would like to see at least some of those details not stripped out altogether.  

This.

To me, it makes the characters seem more filled out, more well-rounded, more than simple combatants and mercenaries.  I rather liked the fact that the DA2 companions had lives outside of adventuring with Hawke.  And I really loved the campfire song Leliana sang in DAO - it brought home her characterization as a bard who had been trained in music, dance, theatre.... and gave more meaning to the Song of Valor buff.