173 réponses à ce sujet

[philippe willaume]

Hello
I think that the idea behind the skill and talent id DA2 was better than DA:0 but the realisation somewhat failed to achieve the potential.

I think the main problem is that DA2 focuses on what to achieve and not what do you want to achieve.
We really could get rid of the characteristics or made them more dependants of the skills and talent you chose.

The problem is that the balance between class speciality and single class with different power source can be a bit tenuous and comes at a price
Too much class speciality and your class tend to be a one trick pony and on the other hand what the point of class if they can all do the same thing?

We could have talent and skill depending of what you want to achieve and you pick the classes you whish but it need to have bearing and use in the story.
No point of having siege engine skills if you don’t get to use it

This jus t quick example of what I could look like (each level in the skill givin some bonus or talent equivalent

Warrior archetypes
Influence other

Shock fighter
Heavy armour/group attack

Fencer
High damage attack/ defensive move

Scout
Stealth/ trap

Body guard
Group attack/buff friendly/

Blacksmith
Craft weapon and armour/craft runes

Fields medic
Craft potion/ health magic

Rogue archetype
Stealth

Cutpurse
Steal/lie

Burglar
Open lock/traps

Brigand
Weapons as warrior/ influence other

Assassin
High damage/poison

Peddler
Craft bomb/craft potion

[stragonar]

It's funny how in DA Origins there were skills available but the flow of the game somewhat discouraged their use since (imo) you were always on the run from something and had no real homebase. DA2 corrected that but eliminated skills altogether in a game world that would seem to be better suited for it. I think there was a lot of potential lost in this so I'm curious as to where they will go next.

[Serpieri Nei]

stragonar wrote...

It's funny how in DA Origins there were skills available but the flow of the game somewhat discouraged their use since (imo) you were always on the run from something and had no real homebase. DA2 corrected that but eliminated skills altogether in a game world that would seem to be better suited for it. I think there was a lot of potential lost in this so I'm curious as to where they will go next.

Care to explain how DA:O discourage their use? Cause I had no trouble pickpocketing people, sure I got caught sometimes and I was able to craft when I needed too. No Homebase?, in Origins you had two bases you could use Camp and Warden's Keep.

[stragonar]

I suppose I should expand on the homebase thoughts. In Origins the only time you had access to your homebase was in between large areas/missions so camp felt more like a pitstop than a homebase. I will admit the diffierence seems subtle but I assure you it could play into immersion a great deal. Consider the possiblities of using skills to upgrade your estate, affect your reputation and much more when you have a home in the city where much of the game takes place. There could have been skill related quests etc. I realize this would have taken the game in a different direction, but the opportunity was definetely there, whereas it was not in DAO.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

An apple is an apple.  An orange is an orange.  Story is story, inventory is inventory.  You can have one without the other.

Do you really not see how you keep presupposing your conclusion?

Watch.

An apple is an apple.  An appleseed is an appleseed.  Each is a distinct item, but one is contained entirely within the other.

You're so totally lost.  :P:P   You're not even on topic anymore.

You don't need endless boring skills to make a story fun.  Fact. 

[Sidney]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

1. Crafting in Origins served many purposes - it gave you access to poisons, potions, runes oils, poisons,
2. t gave you a way to generate revenue to afford all those expansive items available from each vendor,
3. Traps were also very useable in origins in thinning the herd, creating choke points,

Crafting served no point but let's roll with what you have:

1. access to stuff, which you can buy so it doesn't give you access to squat different than buying.
2. It is a substitute form of trash looting -- oh and a money exploit so you can buy everything in the game. Role play, no, min/max...YES!!!!
3. Traps were useless on your side and the only good they did on the other side was being worth 5-10x the XP of an average foe to disarm.

In the end it is a mechanism that adds nothing to the game. I've asked this before about crafting, why not cooking? Would you like a cooking mini-game? You have to feed your party, it matters and keeps them fit or else they start suffer health/combat penalties. It helps morale to feed them as well Feed them tasty and different foods not the same old stuff and you get bigger bonuses. You can scrounge for sage and basil and other ingredients. Buy and sell pots and pans - imagine the Wok +2 / +5 vs Kung Pao! You can have cooking skills as a non-combat skill you level up to allow you access to great recipe power. At level 1 you can make hot dogs and hamburger, by level 4 you are working fois gras and creme fraiche. You can sell your food to a hungry world - you could buy out the innkeeper and sell your own food to make money. More money for higher levels of cooking skills. Now, as stupid an idea as this is tell me how it varies in any meaningful way from potions?

[aduellist]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

You don't need endless boring skills to make a story fun.  Fact. 

Yes, I do, because I don't find them boring.  Fact.

[Pasquale1234]

stragonar wrote...

I suppose I should expand on the homebase thoughts. In Origins the only time you had access to your homebase was in between large areas/missions so camp felt more like a pitstop than a homebase. I will admit the diffierence seems subtle but I assure you it could play into immersion a great deal. Consider the possiblities of using skills to upgrade your estate, affect your reputation and much more when you have a home in the city where much of the game takes place. There could have been skill related quests etc. I realize this would have taken the game in a different direction, but the opportunity was definetely there, whereas it was not in DAO.

There were skill related quests in DAO.  Supplying traps, poisons, potions not only in Lothering but other quest boards.  The Coercion skill was used in quite a few intimidate or persuade attempts throughout the game.  Also, the Survival skill was used specifically for at least one quest (in the Brec. Forest).  If the Warden had any stealing skills, you opened another set of quests in Denerim (given by Slim Couldry).  You needed higher level combat skills in order to learn higher level talents, which made perfect sense to me.

Crafting abilities were also used by NPCs.  If you supplied Wade with the right materials, he would make some great armor for you, and the master weaponsmith at Soldier's Peak would craft a very special weapon (Starfang) if you brought him the materials.

[Sylvius the Mad]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

You're so totally lost.  :P:P   You're not even on topic anymore.

You don't need endless boring skills to make a story fun.  Fact. 

That's not what you were claiming.  You were saying that the boring skills (or the boring inventory management) were not part of the story, and thus weren't important.

As it happens, I don't think those skills are boring.  I think they add to the atmosphere of the setting, and thus make it a more pleasant environment in which to roleplay.

Because, I don't think the story that's written by the developers is very important, except insofar as it fleshes out the setting.

[Serpieri Nei]

stragonar wrote...

I suppose I should expand on the homebase thoughts. In Origins the only time you had access to your homebase was in between large areas/missions so camp felt more like a pitstop than a homebase. I will admit the diffierence seems subtle but I assure you it could play into immersion a great deal. Consider the possiblities of using skills to upgrade your estate, affect your reputation and much more when you have a home in the city where much of the game takes place. There could have been skill related quests etc. I realize this would have taken the game in a different direction, but the opportunity was definetely there, whereas it was not in DAO.

My home in DA2 was a pit stop. What skills are going to be used to upgrade your estate? Carpentry, stone masonry? It sounds like your saying DA2 has the potential for you to open a shop and sell your wares? The only true business Hawke had in Kirkwall was the Courier service where he delivered people's pants and ribcages with a smile on his face. 

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 10 juin 2011 - 09:04 .

[Tirfan]

Sidney wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

1. Crafting in Origins served many purposes - it gave you access to poisons, potions, runes oils, poisons,
2. t gave you a way to generate revenue to afford all those expansive items available from each vendor,
3. Traps were also very useable in origins in thinning the herd, creating choke points,

Crafting served no point but let's roll with what you have:

1. access to stuff, which you can buy so it doesn't give you access to squat different than buying.
2. It is a substitute form of trash looting -- oh and a money exploit so you can buy everything in the game. Role play, no, min/max...YES!!!!
3. Traps were useless on your side and the only good they did on the other side was being worth 5-10x the XP of an average foe to disarm.

In the end it is a mechanism that adds nothing to the game. I've asked this before about crafting, why not cooking? Would you like a cooking mini-game? You have to feed your party, it matters and keeps them fit or else they start suffer health/combat penalties. It helps morale to feed them as well Feed them tasty and different foods not the same old stuff and you get bigger bonuses. You can scrounge for sage and basil and other ingredients. Buy and sell pots and pans - imagine the Wok +2 / +5 vs Kung Pao! You can have cooking skills as a non-combat skill you level up to allow you access to great recipe power. At level 1 you can make hot dogs and hamburger, by level 4 you are working fois gras and creme fraiche. You can sell your food to a hungry world - you could buy out the innkeeper and sell your own food to make money. More money for higher levels of cooking skills. Now, as stupid an idea as this is tell me how it varies in any meaningful way from potions?

And you know, some of that stuff in sale with rather limited quantities, I didn't make money with the crafting skills - it was fun for me to think whether I will invest my money on crafting resources or better gear or try to get a bit of both.
Traps useless? okay, no.Traps were really useful, I absolutely loved them, made deep roads for example, a lot more enjoyable. (And well, it just gave me some weird satisfaction to see the darkspawn tumble into traps and then throw grenades at them.)

[Serpieri Nei]

Sidney wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

1. Crafting in Origins served many purposes - it gave you access to poisons, potions, runes oils, poisons,
2. t gave you a way to generate revenue to afford all those expansive items available from each vendor,
3. Traps were also very useable in origins in thinning the herd, creating choke points,

Crafting served no point but let's roll with what you have:

1. access to stuff, which you can buy so it doesn't give you access to squat different than buying.
2. It is a substitute form of trash looting -- oh and a money exploit so you can buy everything in the game. Role play, no, min/max...YES!!!!
3. Traps were useless on your side and the only good they did on the other side was being worth 5-10x the XP of an average foe to disarm.

In the end it is a mechanism that adds nothing to the game. I've asked this before about crafting, why not cooking? Would you like a cooking mini-game? You have to feed your party, it matters and keeps them fit or else they start suffer health/combat penalties. It helps morale to feed them as well Feed them tasty and different foods not the same old stuff and you get bigger bonuses. You can scrounge for sage and basil and other ingredients. Buy and sell pots and pans - imagine the Wok +2 / +5 vs Kung Pao! You can have cooking skills as a non-combat skill you level up to allow you access to great recipe power. At level 1 you can make hot dogs and hamburger, by level 4 you are working fois gras and creme fraiche. You can sell your food to a hungry world - you could buy out the innkeeper and sell your own food to make money. More money for higher levels of cooking skills. Now, as stupid an idea as this is tell me how it varies in any meaningful way from potions?

You seem to have forgotten that many of things that were sold from the vendors were in limited supply. Are you going to point out where I exploited or where I min/maxed. Are you even on the same page anymore? Sorry, to burst your bubble traps were not useless. As I have stated they made many of the fights in nightmare manageable by creating chokepoints, controlling the enemies, and protecting companions. 

In the end because you didn't see the potential doesn't make it useless. Cooking in many games that uses that skill creates items that give temporary buffs just like potions so were you trying to make a point to have potions removed? Do you want a pill dispenser instead?

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 10 juin 2011 - 09:20 .

[Wulfram]

Crafting in my experience is pretty much always tedious, always either pointless or unbalanced and usually pretty silly for the player to be doing in the middle of trying to save the world.

The DA2 system was good because it wasn't really crafting.

[philippe willaume]

I think that Sidney was refereeing to the disconnection between skills and the way they are implemented in the game.
As Pasquale1234 mentioned, in DA:0 we had a few opportunities to use some skills and you could talk/role play your way into success and avoid violence.
And I think those are what skill should be created for.

But his point is that most of the time it is a mechanic boost.
Like cutting wood/mining, running/jumping every where, and making stuff for the first months of actual play in an online game.

Another example is the skill supplying the tactical slots, very good idea on paper, but in practice, but playing in hard in nightmare; you pause a lot, so your companions are never really left to their own device so it does end up being quite useless.

Or have you not lost the will to live in DA:A when crafting high power runes….almost a tedious as fighting bosses in DA2.

You are right; some people will enjoy and use some skill more than others and in my opinion for some charater build, trap and bomb should be a must. And the skill could be used as a plot device (i.e. capture something alive or balst some passage open or close)
But they should not be a generic way out for all or a game exploit or even worse a must linked to cheap and cheerful raising the game difficulty level trick.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

That's not what you were claiming.  You were saying that the boring skills (or the boring inventory management) were not part of the story, and thus weren't important.

That's correct.  Inventory management is boring and is not part of a story.  It is, at best, a support mechanism.  Games get better when they have less inventory bordem to deal with.  Witness ME1 (great game) turn into ME2 (excellent game).

As it happens, I don't think those skills are boring.  I think they add to the atmosphere of the setting, and thus make it a more pleasant environment in which to roleplay.

As is happens, I do.  And I don't even need a piece of paper to role play.  The best games I've every GM'd/DM'd did not use dice.  They were 100% story.  RPGs are edging closer to doing away with boring numbers and a focus on game mechanics.  That's a good thing.  They're getting better.


:D:D  They day will come when you choose a character's name, a face, and that's it.  Sploosh!  Into the game you go.  No journal, inventory, skills, traits, blah blah.  All that stuff will be decided as you interact with the world.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Wulfram wrote...

Crafting in my experience is pretty much always tedious, always either pointless or unbalanced and usually pretty silly for the player to be doing in the middle of trying to save the world.

The DA2 system was good because it wasn't really crafting.

That's fair.  The boring parts of crafting are extrapolate into finding certain resources, which I think makes all the difference in the world.

[Sylvius the Mad]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Witness ME1 (great game) turn into ME2 (excellent game).

From my point of view, ME1 (pleasant diversion that barely allowed roleplaying) turned into ME2 (endless drudgery that didn't allow roleplaying at all).

As is happens, I do.  And I don't even need a piece of paper to role play.  The best games I've every GM'd/DM'd did not use dice.  They were 100% story.  RPGs are edging closer to doing away with boring numbers and a focus on game mechanics.  That's a good thing.  They're getting better.

:D:D  They day will come when you choose a character's name, a face, and that's it.  Sploosh!  Into the game you go.  No journal, inventory, skills, traits, blah blah.  All that stuff will be decided as you interact with the world.

I'll agree that the journal needs to go.  It was a good idea, but it's been so misused by developers that I have no real expectation that it will ever get better.

As for the rest, how can I make informed decisions about my character's actions, or the world around him, if I don't have information telling me about the world or my character?  How does the game know what my character is good at - or bad at - without some quantified score somewhere?  And where's the randomness?  The value of dice is that they mimic the unpredictability of events in the world.

[billy the squid]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

...

:D:D  They day will come when you choose a character's name, a face, and that's it.  Sploosh!  Into the game you go.  No journal, inventory, skills, traits, blah blah.  All that stuff will be decided as you interact with the world.

So it is reduced to push a button and something awesome happens?

Modifié par billy the squid, 10 juin 2011 - 11:41 .

[Hatchetman77]

fightright2 wrote...

shantisands wrote...

MonkeyLungs wrote...

Yep skills please. I like Cutlass jack's suggestions above. A system like his with even more skills would be fun.

And William Shatner is spot on in the above post. Give us crafting skills and tie ALL of the loot to crafting in some way. Weapons/armor - either break em down or build them up. Vendor trash weapons should be useful to the player in ways other than just selling from the junk tab.

Yeah, if junk is useful somehow, that is great.   

I also agree.

I would also like to make my agreement of Cutlass Jack's (and the OP's) post known to all.

[Patchwork]

I miss the days of a journal I could write in, great for RPG and with the move to voiced protagonist it would help distinguish one run from another.

As for crafting I want the Winter Forge in DA3. BW have already hijacked the Dog Slot mod so why not do it again.

Thanks for the Duncan tip, I might fire up Origins this weekend to try it out.

[TheTraina]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Skills should come back. I'd love a more robust system. With enough skills that giving a point per level would be useful. (instead of the 1/3 or 1/2 system of DAO) I think I'd prefer some skills being class restricted. If not, Lockpicking should stay based on cunning for rogues, sorry.

Some other suggestions:

Insult: Increase threat generation on actions.

Decieve: Decrease threat generation.

Element Mastery: one skill for each element. Increases damage and resistance to that element.  If allowable for all classes would include weapon damage of that element.

Coersion: Should come back as an actual skill instead of the stealthy DA2 method which most people were unaware was in the game. Personally I'd love it broken down into seperate charm/intimidate/diplomacy skills but doubt they'd do that. So instead I'd follow DA2 somewhat and put modifiers by personality rating.

Crafting: I'd love to see a real crafting system with skills to go along with it. But this seems to be one thing Bioware can't seem to manage no matter how hard they try. So probably an unrealistic wish.

Awareness: Increases information given on minimap. Enemies and points of interest. Could possibly be broken into two skills: Streetwise (increases city stuff) & Survival (increases non-city location). But probably too advanced for DA.

As a final note, I'd keep tactical slots as they were in DA2 and not put them skill based again. That was a very solid move this time around.
 

totally agree with that :happy:
would love to see skills coming back, i really missed them in da2

[bossk-office]

The best crafting system I've ever seen in a game was in Everquest 2.  Not only did you need to gather materials, and have the relevant skills, but then you needed to apply those skills in response to feedback.  It was like turn-based combat, but for crafting.

I hear Skyrim is going to have turn-based eating of bread

EDIT: Moreover, eating will be a skill you need to pump points into ASAP

Modifié par panchamkauns, 11 juin 2011 - 11:53 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Ser Bard wrote...

I miss the days of a journal I could write in, great for RPG and with the move to voiced protagonist it would help distinguish one run from another. 

There was this tabletop RPG I loved called 'Castle Falkenstein' that had players writing actual journals as they played as a game mechanic. Was a very innovative idea for RP.

Arcanum (also in the magical steampunk genere) the cRPG let you put mix your own entries in with the quest ones. Was a great feature. Its a method of sparking creativity and connecting you more to the game world.

I think back then game design was forced to be more engaging to compensate for in game graphics not being as good. As graphics get better and better we seem to lose more and more of the little things that really make a difference.

Nothing to do with Skills of course, but you just brought back a few fond memories.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 11 juin 2011 - 12:04 .

[Amfortas]

This is something I really missed, and that in general I've missed in every Bioware game except Kotor. In Origins they were not handled well, but at least they exist. A few things I can think of:

Persuasion: I hate the way it works in DAII, it restricts my dialog choices without reason. The fact that I'm nice with my family doesn't mean that I can't be a racist and want to kill every qunari. In ME2 at least you have a paragon/renegade meter that gives you a visual indication of your ability to persuade, in DAII we don't even have that.
Something that could work is a system where you have to invest points in a generic speech skill and use the dialog tracking to determine what kind of persusasion you are going to use.

Barter: or a charisma attribute that affects prices, but I'm sure that would displease people who enjoy min/maxing their characters

Traps: for both arming and disarming traps. This includes for example arming existing traps in old ruins that no longer work and can be used against enemies.

Repair: I think a repair skill that allows you to avoid some fights is necessary. Repair a golem control rod so the golem can clear the room for you, repair a catapult to use it against incoming enemies, jam a door to keep enemies from following you, etc

Survival: true that with the current wave system it doesn't have much use, but the wave system has to disappear.

Potions and Poisons: pretty much like in Origins. I didn't like crafting in DAII, because it was not really crafting. There isn't much difference between buying robes or an elfroot potion.

Combat training: I don't think this one should work like in Origins, restricting the talents one can pick, but simply allowing those characters who want to focus exclusively in combat to increase their efficiency, better healing, speed, attack, damage, etc.

Both lockpiking and stealing can be cunning based, but not exclusive for rogues.
I like the idea of upgrading weapons and armor, but I think that something like in Kotor2, basing it on certain skills depending on what you are trying to make, works well enough.
It would be nice if non combat skills affected dialog as well.

[_Aine_]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I think back then game design was forced to be more engaging to compensate for in game graphics not being as good. As graphics get better and better we seem to lose more and more of the little things that really make a difference.

Nothing to do with Skills of course, but you just brought back a few fond memories.

Well, I think it actually *does* relate to skills (or perhaps their simplification/removal) but I think you are totally spot-on.  I hope they add some of those "things that make a difference" back in.