251 réponses à ce sujet

[Gibb_Shepard]

I don't understand why everyone is against letting stats determine your accuracy and damage. Have you people played an RPG before? Wheres the fun in having everything ready and powered from the get go? Does no one else here on the Bioware forums like slowly improving their characters in varying ways?

I guess not.

And OP, ME1's combat wasn't a good blend. But i sure as hell hope that we can pause and aim, pausing combat to check your surroundings and issue orders is one of the best things about ME combat.

[Waltzingbear]

I think it's more fun and, yes,'immersive' to have your guns behave like actual guns and not like cardboard gun with stats.
There's plenty of progressive improvement along the game to your character.

[CerebraLArsenaL]

Waltzingbear wrote...

I feel for you, I really do, but ME is not a traditional stat based RPG, just like you can't win Dragon Age Origins with dodging slashing and what not in an active manner based on your direct actions. You want the complexity but you want the game to play more slowly, ME is just not that kind of game.

It would be interesting to see an auto aim system implemented into the game, it is just a strange combination and something we aren't used to see. That's not the focus of the gameplay however and creating a 'classic RPG mode' would require a lot of work and possibly just create a lot of awkward aspects.

If you were responding to me w/ the 1st, its not that I want it slowed down, I know it is run and gun, I sort of like the anxiety. But I would like a compensation for those of who are not MLG level people, yet dont want to be cheated by having to play on Casual/Normal

As for the second, several games, including GoW i believe, have auto aim as an option, and it doesnt hamper the game in the least...dont need it, turn it off, like a racing game (which I use extensively, but ive also turned off some too).... its like EA's fight night....4 came out and I sucked at the stick motions....I just chalked up another game I cant play w/my hands...but then the whole fanbase clamoured for the buttons back; I could play, and didnt hurt the game at all, actually improved sales I think. Why would options make the game awkward?

[CaptainZaysh]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I don't understand why everyone is against letting stats determine your accuracy and damage. Have you people played an RPG before?

I think you've got it the wrong way around.

In pen and paper RPGs we had to have stats for everything.  They were there to simulate the act of firing a gun.

In modern video games we can simulate firing a gun by actually looking down the sights, controlling our breathing, squeezing the trigger, watching it go BOOM and buck in our hands, and see the effect on target.

One of these thing is better than the other.  To have the video game simulate an earlier simulation strikes me as a backward step.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I don't understand why everyone is against letting stats determine your accuracy and damage. Have you people played an RPG before?

I think you've got it the wrong way around.

In pen and paper RPGs we had to have stats for everything.  They were there to simulate the act of firing a gun.

In modern video games we can simulate firing a gun by actually looking down the sights, controlling our breathing, squeezing the trigger, watching it go BOOM and buck in our hands, and see the effect on target.

One of these thing is better than the other.  To have the video game simulate an earlier simulation strikes me as a backward step.

It's the difference between player skill and character skill.

The typical method of RPGs is you are playing a character of your own construct, you are not playing a character that is you. In order to facilitate this mindset, the idea is that a player initiates an action, and the character will carry it out with varying success depending on his stats. The stats are a vital way to represent the character as it's own entity and not a self extension of the player.

Seeing as Mass Effect is a hybrid game however, I'm of the personal notion that putting too much of a reliance on stats leads to unsatisfying gameplay and I would prefer a system whereupon a player's skill is modified but never outright contradicted by their character skill.

To this end, I would not mind stats modifying other areas of weapon handling, such as reload speed, damage, available customisations, perhaps introducing a jam or bringing back an overheating mechanic and so forth.

But I am not for modifying accuracy outright, at least in Mass Effect. Maybe in other hybrid games.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 10 juin 2011 - 11:03 .

[Dannyboy9876]

Stat-Driven mechanics are stupid. If Shepard is in the Alliance military, s/he should have perfect accuracy with ALL weapons.

I suppose you could then say, "Shep should start with all powers maxed out", but that's just stupid. And if you counter-act my argument with that, your ****ing retarded.

[CaptainZaysh]

Dannyboy9876 wrote...

I suppose you could then say, "Shep should start with all powers maxed out", but that's just stupid. And if you counter-act my argument with that, your ****ing retarded.

This is just the best line of debate I think I've ever seen.  I'm definitely going to use this myself.

[Dannyboy9876]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Dannyboy9876 wrote...

I suppose you could then say, "Shep should start with all powers maxed out", but that's just stupid. And if you counter-act my argument with that, your ****ing retarded.

This is just the best line of debate I think I've ever seen.  I'm definitely going to use this myself.

Thank you. I do try 

[Jebel Krong]

stat-driven aiming was the worst thing in a shooter-rpg hybrid they could ever have thought of, and completely illogical in-universe given the character you RP.

having said that the hideous amounts of auto-aim in #2 caused me to miss more shots than anything else, that definitely needs to be toned way down, especially when sniping.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Dannyboy9876 wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Dannyboy9876 wrote...

I suppose you could then say, "Shep should start with all powers maxed out", but that's just stupid. And if you counter-act my argument with that, your ****ing retarded.

This is just the best line of debate I think I've ever seen.  I'm definitely going to use this myself.

Thank you. I do try 

I hope this becomes a trend and all posters use that logic. In that case a moderator can just remove the forum instead of ban its posters one by one.

[Lumikki]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I don't understand why everyone is against letting stats determine your accuracy and damage. Have you people played an RPG before? Wheres the fun in having everything ready and powered from the get go? Does no one else here on the Bioware forums like slowly improving their characters in varying ways?

Eh?

Of course we have played RPG, most of us here are veteran RPG players. This isn't that RPG style would not work. This is about what type of game Mass Effect serie is. Mass Effect serie is design to be hybrid of action RPG and TPS (Third Person Shooter). Now to have actually working TPS you neen player based aiming, because if you don't have it. There is no ****ing TPS side at all. It would be same as removing main character and say you don't need characters in RPG. Meanign the main point of "shooter" combat is that player does the aiming. As cinematic action game, that's why this game is faster.

Modifié par Lumikki, 10 juin 2011 - 12:59 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Lumikki wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I don't understand why everyone is against letting stats determine your accuracy and damage. Have you people played an RPG before? Wheres the fun in having everything ready and powered from the get go? Does no one else here on the Bioware forums like slowly improving their characters in varying ways?

Eh?

Of course we have played RPG, most of us here are veteran RPG players. This isn't that RPG style would not work. This is about what type of game Mass Effect serie is. Mass Effect serie is design to be hybrid of action RPG and TPS (Third Person Shooter). Now to have actually working TPS you neen player based aiming, because if you don't have it. There is no ****ing TPS side at all. It would be same as removing main character and say you don't need characters in RPG. Meanign the main point of "shooter" combat is that player does the aiming. As cinematic action game, that's why this game is faster.

This

[Sylvius the Mad]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

I think you've got it the wrong way around.

In pen and paper RPGs we had to have stats for everything.  They were there to simulate the act of firing a gun.

You're missing something important.  Those stats were there to simulate the act of someone else firing a gun.

And that's why the stats are still important.  I'm not someone else.  I'm me.  My abilities aren't indicative of someone else's abilities.

In modern video games we can simulate firing a gun by actually looking down the sights, controlling our breathing, squeezing the trigger, watching it go BOOM and buck in our hands, and see the effect on target.

One of these thing is better than the other.  To have the video game simulate an earlier simulation strikes me as a backward step.

The action mechanic you describe is simulating the wrong thing.  The action mechanic simulates you firing a gun, but that's not what's happening within the game.  There's a fundamental disconnect here that only stat-driven events can fix.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Dannyboy9876 wrote...

Stat-Driven mechanics are stupid. If Shepard is in the Alliance military, s/he should have perfect accuracy with ALL weapons.

That's a perfectly reasonable position.

But then, why does she miss if I'm an unskilled player?

[Massadonious1]

So, we have to implement a mechanic to teach people to not be idiots?

[FluffyScarf]

Coriolis effect?

[AlanC9]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

There are some things that modern games still can't actually completely simulate, however. And games allow you to do things you could not do in RL such as directly control the actions of a whole army or a squad of characters. That requires some kind of pause and play/stat based system. This can kinda happen in ME but it certainly doesn't ocurr with the diversity and tactical possiblities of something like BG2. My point is not that ME3 needs stat based shooting to be good or playable, but rather that the preception that stat based gaming=boring, old, and unneccesary is limiting.

Well, "boring" is completely subjective, of course.

But yeah, pause and play lets you do some things that can't be done otherwise, and stat-based systems give an experience that you can't get with (player)skill-based systems.

[Walker White]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

But i sure as hell hope that we can pause and aim, pausing combat to check your surroundings and issue orders is one of the best things about ME combat.

This is orthogonal to using stats to influence combat.  The ME series has always had this and always will have this. And frankly, I think this is enough.  In my opinion, stats-based auto-attacks have really become the province of RTSs and not cRPGs these days.  That is why it made so much sense for Blizzard to move into the MMO arena when all they had made was RTSs up to that point.

[Lumikki]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

I think you've got it the wrong way around.

In pen and paper RPGs we had to have stats for everything.  They were there to simulate the act of firing a gun.

You're missing something important.  Those stats were there to simulate the act of someone else firing a gun.

And that's why the stats are still important.  I'm not someone else.  I'm me.  My abilities aren't indicative of someone else's abilities.

Yes and No.

You are right that stats are there to simulate someone else abilities. How ever that's not really fully true.
You have intelligent, wisdom or any other mind bases stat, how you make you self smarter or dummer based you characters intelligent?

You don't, you only need simulate abilities in virtual world what player it self can't do behave of character or if it helps to termined some stat related other fuctions in game, like example learning as progression speed for character.

Point been, Yes stats often simulate character abilities, but not allways every ability that charcater has. Those abilities that player can do it self, behave of character aren't needed to be simulated. So, there isn't actually rule that says player it self can't aim behave of character if that possibility exist? You allready do alot of abilities behave of character, they just aren't usually physical.

Modifié par Lumikki, 10 juin 2011 - 04:53 .

[Gravbh]

ME is a shooter hybrid. If you're not very good at the shooting you'll have just to lower the difficulty. That's generally what people do when they're not very good at the style of game they're playing.

[Ahglock]

Lumikki wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

I think you've got it the wrong way around.

In pen and paper RPGs we had to have stats for everything.  They were there to simulate the act of firing a gun.

You're missing something important.  Those stats were there to simulate the act of someone else firing a gun.

And that's why the stats are still important.  I'm not someone else.  I'm me.  My abilities aren't indicative of someone else's abilities.

Yes and No.

You are right that stats are there to simulate someone else abilities. How ever that's not really fully true.
You have intelligent, wisdom or any other mind bases stat, how you make you self smarter or dummer based you characters intelligent?

You don't, you only need simulate abilities in virtual world what player it self can't do behave of character or if it helps to termined some stat related other fuctions in game, like example learning as progression speed for character.

Point been, Yes stats often simulate character abilities, but not allways every ability that charcater has. Those abilities that player can do it self, behave of character aren't needed to be simulated. So, there isn't actually rule that says player it self can't aim behave of character if that possibility exist? You allready do alot of abilities behave of character, they just aren't usually physical.

Intelligence can't cover everything sure.  Like what plans you come up for your actions.  But intelligence is simulated through how your actions pan out, like your chemistry skill might be better because your intelligence is 18.  In RPGS the only thing not simulated is the player decision process.  That is the how RPGs work.  Now sure, hybrids are different.

Modifié par Ahglock, 10 juin 2011 - 05:03 .

[Dannyboy9876]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Dannyboy9876 wrote...

Stat-Driven mechanics are stupid. If Shepard is in the Alliance military, s/he should have perfect accuracy with ALL weapons.

That's a perfectly reasonable position.

But then, why does she miss if I'm an unskilled player?

Well, it's quite simple.

It's a game. There isn't really an argument against this, except....

GIT GUD

[Ahglock]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

So, Mass Effect had what I think was a terrific stat-driven aiming mechanic.  It was the first time I'd seen a shooter with stat-driven aiming.  It basically took traditional RPG target selection and converted it to an analog process so that it would fit inside a shooter interface.

I really liked it.

Then Mass Effect 2 took that away.  I have a great many complaints about that, but what's important here is that ME2 still allowed the player to aim while paused, thus eliminating the need to have player skill determine Shepard's accuracy.

I think this is very important.  If Shepard's an elite soldier, her accuracy should not depend on my accuracy.  She shouldn't shoot less well if I'm drunk, or if I'm injured, and she shouldn't shoot more accurately just because I got some practise.

The ability to aim while paused saved ME2's combat from becoming nothing more than an action game.  Without it, I likely would have found the game unplayable.  On this topic, I have several questions about ME3:

Can we still aim while paused in ME3?

Will there be any stat-driven effects affecting aiming or damage (which can serve as an abstraction of accuracy)?

Can we still trigger biotic and tech abilities while paused?

Will we finally be able to use a scope while paused?

Will we finally be able to trigger a weapon while paused?

Yeah I think ME1 did fine on the shooting + skill side of things, its shooting sucked in many other ways like how tankish all characters were, how little cover mattered etc.  As long as the skill was on your list you were profiicent in the weapons use and were kind of where I'd see a trained soldier being.  But that seems to be going away.

Still since you asked for maybe skill effecting damage I don't see why not.  You still hit what you shoot, but if you are skilled it just does more damage.  You just have to make sure guns always feel like guns to some degree even at the 0 skill level.

I'm okay with all your questions being answered yes.