225 réponses à ce sujet

[elearon1]

Gurris wrote...

IGN is a pretty damn stupid website as always.
I don't care who won the best RPG since I am eagerly looking forward to both Skyrim and ME3 but Bioshock Infinite getting so many awards including "Best Overall Game", "Best PC Game and "Best Shooter"? Really?

And Tomb Raider? Give me a break. Those guys are just horny teenagers diggin' the moans.

I might agree with you about Tomb Raider, but the Bioshock series has really delivered up to this point.  No, it was not an rpg, so if that's what you're judging your games on you'll doubtlessly balk at the nomination, but for storytelling, graphics and atmosphere, Bioshock has really been right up there with the other big names.  

I look forward to Bioshock: Infinite only slightly less than ME3 for next year's, (non mmo) releases. 

[Walker White]

elearon1 wrote...

I might agree with you about Tomb Raider, but the Bioshock series has really delivered up to this point.  No, it was not an rpg, so if that's what you're judging your games on you'll doubtlessly balk at the nomination, but for storytelling, graphics and atmosphere, Bioshock has really been right up there with the other big names.  

Ironically, if you talk to the higher ups at Irrational, many of them believe (despite how the press categorizes it) that BioShock is an RPG.  Many of these guys were at Looking Glass and worked on System Shock; they see BioShock as the spiritual successor.  Would love to have some of them post their arguments on this forum; wouldn't that be fun.

I know some of the technical leads there.  The AI advances they are working on for BioShock: Infinite are pretty major will be absolutely incredible if they can pull it off.

[Il Divo]

Walker White wrote...

Ironically, if you talk to the higher ups at Irrational, many of them believe (despite how the press categorizes it) that BioShock is an RPG.  Many of these guys were at Looking Glass and worked on System Shock; they see BioShock as the spiritual successor.  Would love to have some of them post their arguments on this forum; wouldn't that be fun.

I know some of the technical leads there.  The AI advances they are working on for BioShock: Infinite are pretty major will be absolutely incredible if they can pull it off.

At the very least, I'd argue it's an rpg/tps hybrid given the player's ability to upgrade/customize plasmids, weapons, and tonics. And despite not feauring dialogue options or narrative choices, the game still manages to feel like a very interactive experience (similar to Half-Life). After Mass Effect 3/Deus Ex, it's probably my most anticipated title coming up.

[elearon1]

Walker White wrote...


Ironically, if you talk to the higher ups at Irrational, many of them believe (despite how the press categorizes it) that BioShock is an RPG. 

It isn't an rpg.  You make no choices aside from goodnokill/evilyeskill and do not effect the story in any significant way.  The ability to choose which plasmids you use, which powers you master, does not make it a Role Playing Game, no matter how much people want to stretch that definition.  

That said, I Have been very impressed with their previous works and do indeed look forward to the next installment.  But their desire to broaden the definitions of their game in order to sell more copies does not, in truth, make the experience more than it is.  An rpg is not defined by the ability to choose which powers you equip; even as a crpg that is rather stretching the definition.  

I understand that, for marketing pursposes, they want to fit into as many categories as possible ... but supporting their misleading statments doesn't make you a fan, it just makes you an advertising (thinks it stupid that word was blocked) harlot. 

I've been looking forward to this game since it was announced ... but I'm not going to make more of it than it is simply to fulfil some desire to play a crpg. 

Modifié par elearon1, 11 juin 2011 - 11:53 .

[Il Divo]

elearon1 wrote...

It isn't an rpg.  You make no choices aside from goodnokill/evilyeskill and do not effect the story in any significant way.  The ability to choose which plasmids you use, which powers you master, does not make it a Role Playing Game, no matter how much people want to stretch that definition.  

Just to be clear then, by this would you argue that the Diablo series, World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy, amongst others are not rpgs?

[elearon1]

Il Divo wrote...

Just to be clear then, by this would you argue that the Diablo series, World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy, amongst others are not rpgs?

Yes I would.  WoW is barely a crpg, Diablo isn't remotely a Role Playijng game, and Final Fantasy is basically an interactive movie.  That isn't to suggest these games are bad, (aside from WoW, I never understood how intelligent people could enjoy this game - it isn't even as interesting as Everquest) they simply don't involve anything resembling Role Playing. (at least with an mmo like WoW there is room for RP outside of the game itself; through guild rp and such)

I think the definition of rpg is purposefully being diluted so games which would never have had a chance to fall into that category can try to advertise themselves to a larger audience.  I can't blame the marketing departments for this ... after all, they just want to make money ... but I DO blame players who sit back and buy into the bs, thus telling the gaming companies that it is alright to misrepresent themselves.  

I have been playing PnP and CRPGs for 20 years, (have also written for and edited some rpg games) so I most certainly consider myself qualified to say what is, and is not, an rpg.  And at the rate we are going, given 10 years or less people will be calling fps games rpgs with a straight face.  

I won't claim any genre is better than another, but the differences exist for a reason and tearing them down only benefits the game publishers.  (in fact, I'm sure most game publishers would love to get rid of all genre definitions ... or, rather, love to be able to apply all of them to any game which hits the market .. that way all games attract the same following.  But do we, as consumers, want to encourage that kind of thinking?)

[Il Divo]

elearon1 wrote...

Yes I would.  WoW is barely a crpg, Diablo isn't remotely a Role Playijng game, and Final Fantasy is basically an interactive movie.  That isn't to suggest these games are bad, (aside from WoW, I never understood how intelligent people could enjoy this game - it isn't even as interesting as Everquest) they simply don't involve anything resembling Role Playing. (at least with an mmo like WoW there is room for RP outside of the game itself; through guild rp and such)

But  you've already narrowed 'playing a role' to simply being about a character's personality. In Diablo, I can take a role as a Barbarian, an Amazon, amongst others. I can make my Amazon focus on spears, the bow, or even magic. Simply look at pen and paper. When I choose to play as a Wizard with metamagic feats or a dual-wielding fighter, I have now established a role/identity for myself.

I think the definition of rpg is purposefully being diluted so games which would never have had a chance to fall into that category can try to advertise themselves to a larger audience.  I can't blame the marketing departments for this ... after all, they just want to make money ... but I DO blame players who sit back and buy into the bs, thus telling the gaming companies that it is alright to misrepresent themselves.  

 I wouldn't say that there's one definition. In more than a few places you look, you'll find Diablo labeled a role-playing game. Hell, WoW is called an 'MMORPG' by the population at large.

 But do we, as consumers, want to encourage that kind of thinking?)

I don't see myself as encouraging that type of thinking. I for example define RPG according to 'customization'. That customization could be entirely personality/narrative-focused (which is closer to your definition) or it could revolve around gameplay, inventory, abilities (such as Diablo). Hence why I consider Bioshock to have elements of a role-playing game. I have the ability to customize my character to a good amount. No, it's not at Planescape Torment-level, but I still consider it to possess elements.

[elearon1]

Il Divo wrote...

 When I choose to play as a Wizard with metamagic feats or a dual-wielding fighter, I have now established a role/identity for myself.  

That is not an identity, that is a preference toward a skill set.  An identity is a background, a personality, a way of approaching conflicts and scenarios.  Even if you are an actor playing Hamlet you can choose how you say the lines, what the lines mean in your interpretation, how you emphasize the aspects of his personality ... I have even seen Hamlet done as if the entire play were merely happening in his own deluded mind.  Those things are Role Playing; what you're talking about is simulationism - if you're being amazingly generous with the definition.

I wouldn't say that there's one definition. In more than a few places you look, you'll find Diablo labeled a role-playing game. Hell, WoW is called an 'MMORPG' by the population at large.

Which only proves my point.  "Roleplaying Game" is being reduced to mean a game in which you can change armor and skills ... there is no true 'playing of a role' involved with those decisions ... you are "number playing" or "playing dress up" at best.

I don't see myself as encouraging that type of thinking. I for example define RPG according to 'customization'.

Because you have been programmed to think that way.  

That customization could be entirely personality/narrative-focused (which is closer to your definition) or it could revolve around gameplay, inventory, abilities (such as Diablo)

But, that is merely character design customization ... there is no ROLEPLAYING involved with those decisions.  Do not get me wrong, I Love Diablo and Bioshock, but I love them for what they are - adventure or FPS games with story tacked on.  There is nothing wrong with that design, but they should not be touting themselves as RPGs. 

Modifié par elearon1, 11 juin 2011 - 02:15 .

[Il Divo]

elearon1 wrote...

That is not an identity, that is a preference toward a skill set.  An identity is a background, a personality, a way of approaching conflicts and scenarios.  

A 'preference toward a skill set'? What exactly does that mean? I, the player, had a role in shaping my avatar in the game world. I'd argue that this entails playing a role. I gave him a race, a class, attributes, and various skills which the character employs in the game role. What about this does not constitute playing a role? All those things shape the character from physical attributes to their intelligence.

Which only proves my point.  "Roleplaying Game" is being reduced to mean a game in which you can change armor and skills ... there is no true 'playing of a role' involved with those decisions ... you are "number playing" or "playing dress up" at best.

 For the definition of 'roleplaying game' to be reduced, it at one point must have been accepted by the community at large. When was it agreed upon that your definition is the right definition?

'Role-playing games' have almost always been accompanied by rulesets. Dungeons and Dragons, amongst others. Rulebooks are heavily focused on the rules and those are considered  'role-playing games'. Why is it that the creators spent so much time implementing these features when the definition of the game (according to you) revolves only around character personality/choice/etc? Everything you've described: changing armor, skills, etc, has always had close ties to pen and paper.

Because you have been programmed to think that way.  

No more than you've been programmed to think as you do.

But, that is merely character design customization ... there is no ROLEPLAYING involved with those decisions.  Do not get me wrong, I Love Diablo and Bioshock, but I love them for what they are - adventure or FPS games with story tacked on.  There is nothing wrong with that design, but they should not be touting themselves as RPGs. 

 If you really want to play this game, your definition is still  wrong. In every video game, I the player am 'playing a role'. Ergo, all games are role-playing games. You're not going to get a point across relying on literal naming conventions. Your definition would still be considered a misnomer.

Modifié par Il Divo, 11 juin 2011 - 03:53 .

[SalsaDMA]

I'm with elearon1 on this one. RPG have been misused as a term plenty enough to make me roll my eyes at publishers and gaming studios.

The old rpgs like bards tale, ultima, pool of radiance and the like were limited by technology at the time, so slack was cut studios at using the term. After all, they were trying to implement pen and paper rpgs into the computer world, despite being limited in mostly only being able to portray a combat engine and stats along with a story that didn't offer many real choices.

As time went by and technology evolved, gaming studios somehow kept to the belief that the slack they got due to technology limitations back then was still alive and breathing and could basicly tag the rpg line on anything they wanted. Ofc, dumb consumers not protesting didn't exactly help.

So no, I don't think Diablo or World of Warcraft are actual rpgs. Hell, WoW is even less of a rpg than Diablo, as the constant need to 'reset' people throws out continuity of the window and anyone making a deathknigh character in cataclysm, going through the starting area there, then traveling trhough time to azeroth and traveling again in time to outlands, then timetraveling to northrend before finally traveling back in time to azeroth again will know the problem with "continuity" in that games universe. Especially as the game doesn't even treat the arguably different timezones as such, but just mashes them together in a happy mix despite being cronologically out of order.

Ahem... Sorry for the derail...

Anyways, I agree with elearon1 on his dissatisfaction with "rpg" being smacked on almost anything that got a little customization in it.

[Faerlyte]

Seems to me that this has become an argument of semantics. I think it's safe to say that, like it or not, 'rpg' has evolved to encompass a great deal more than it did in the days of the pen and paper rpg. Not besides which, it shouldn't even matter. I play games that I enjoy and what I've come to understand as being a typical rpg in this day and age, whether the term is accurate or not, is what I enjoy most.

This debate is starting to ooze elitism.

[SalsaDMA]

Faerlyte wrote...


Seems to me that this has become an argument of semantics. I think it's safe to say that, like it or not, 'rpg' has evolved to encompass a great deal more than it did in the days of the pen and paper rpg. Not besides which, it shouldn't even matter. I play games that I enjoy and what I've come to understand as being a typical rpg in this day and age, whether the term is accurate or not, is what I enjoy most.

This debate is starting to ooze elitism.

rpg means role playing game. plain and simple.

Using it to mean anything else is the same as claiming that 2+2=5. you can do it, and keep doing it till enough people will state the same thing. It doesn't make it anymore correct, though.

As far as your comment regarding "elitism", I find it disgracefull that whenever people refuse to acknowledge something is wrong, they will just throw up the claim that those showing their error are "elitist"... As if using wrong asumptions was somehow a preferable thing to using correct asumptions. Boggles the mind...

[Il Divo]

SalsaDMA wrote...

rpg means role playing game. plain and simple.

Using it to mean anything else is the same as claiming that 2+2=5. you can do it, and keep doing it till enough people will state the same thing. It doesn't make it anymore correct, though.

As far as your comment regarding "elitism", I find it disgracefull that whenever people refuse to acknowledge something is wrong, they will just throw up the claim that those showing their error are "elitist"... As if using wrong asumptions was somehow a preferable thing to using correct asumptions. Boggles the mind...

Except that you're attempting to turn it into a literal definition. If you want to go the 2+2 =5 argument, then a 'role-playing game' is any game where you play a role. But somehow, I don't think that possibility appeals to you.

[Uomoz1987]

Imho Bioshock is a lot more rpg-ish than any other shooter game and also I feel that a game like that have an ''immersion'' (that's the word I use when i talk about RPG, not inventory or skills) similar to the ME universe. So why not, it's sort of an RPG.

You don't get immersion in Casual Warfare 9 or Xcraft: Boring-clism.

EDIT: Also ho notato che sei italiano, mi raccomando VAI A VOTARE!

Modifié par Uomoz1987, 11 juin 2011 - 10:48 .

[Il Divo]

Uomoz1987 wrote...

EDIT: Also ho notato che sei italiano, mi raccomando VAI A VOTARE!

Haha, mi dispiace. Non  vivo nell'Italia, ma tutta la mia famiglia e` da Fondi (prossima a Roma). Ho visitato la paese` i molti tempi.

And apologies for any grammar mistakes.

Modifié par Il Divo, 11 juin 2011 - 11:07 .

[Verit]

asindre wrote...

Good idea!
http://www.escapistm...3-Mass-Effect-3

It's interesting that they note that Shepard just "looks on coldly, almost too much so" when watching that boy die. It's what I expected, seeing how the game is designed. There's currently no way for players to let their Shepard react to events like this that don't involve dialogue, so you end up with a Shepard that doesn't show any emotion at all. I hope they end up working some dialogue into this to allow the player to actually respond to the event.

[KennethAFTopp]

Reapinger wrote...

KennethAFTopp wrote...

good Mass Effect 3 coverage, but honestly? E3 sucked this year.

Errrrrrrr......

Looking forward to:

Mass Effect 3
Batman: Arkham City
CoD: MW 3
Battlefield
Halo: Anniversary
Halo 4
TES 5: Skyrim
Gears of War 3
Star Wars: The Old Republic
Star Wars: Kinect
Gonna Get Kinect soon


Really FAIL to see how this E3 sucked for any kind of game enthusiast, especially FPS and RPG fans. 

On another note: PWNed to Assasin (who in fact spelled his own username wrong, ASSASSIN) Cause assassins have 2 bootys

All of these games have already been covered more or less and are a known quantity, I hate the kinect and what it means for the 360, this year lacked the huge awesome surprises.

[Luvinn]

ipgd wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Crying over pixels is pretty sad.

When people say this I immediately know they have never played MGS3. I will shed a single tear for the barren life you have lived.

I've never felt so sad and emotional over a game like I did at the end of MGS3. Most movies never made me feel like that game did. I didn't flat out cry, but it choked me up a little. Then again, MGS stories are better than most movies nowadays, so I have no problem getting emotionally attached to pixels.

[Pwnisher]

So the guy who wrote the IGN article cried when he saw a little boy being to hell by a reaper? I wonder what that guy would do if a whole orphanage got destroyer or turned into husks in mass effect 3?

[Mister Mida]

Sorry, but I don't find press response even remotely important as fans and to a lesser extent the general gamer response. Mostly because I usually don't agree with gaming journalists and also that minor detail that we gamers actually need to be the ones who actually have to buy and play it.

[SalsaDMA]

Il Divo wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

rpg means role playing game. plain and simple.

Using it to mean anything else is the same as claiming that 2+2=5. you can do it, and keep doing it till enough people will state the same thing. It doesn't make it anymore correct, though.

As far as your comment regarding "elitism", I find it disgracefull that whenever people refuse to acknowledge something is wrong, they will just throw up the claim that those showing their error are "elitist"... As if using wrong asumptions was somehow a preferable thing to using correct asumptions. Boggles the mind...

Except that you're attempting to turn it into a literal definition. If you want to go the 2+2 =5 argument, then a 'role-playing game' is any game where you play a role. But somehow, I don't think that possibility appeals to you.

playing as yourself doesn't count as playing a role

[Il Divo]

SalsaDMA wrote...

playing as yourself doesn't count as playing a role

In Halo, I take the role of Master Chief battling covenant to save humanity. In Half-Life, I'm Gordon Freeman. In Assassin's Creed, I am Altair. These are 'roles'.

Here's where the problem with these narrow definition of RPGs arise. You propose that only choice, narrative, dialogue, etc, define the RPG. Everything else (all the numbers) are just statistics and are absolutely irrelevant to the definition. Well, there's a separate opinion which states that only the numbers are relevant to a role-playing game who claim that everything you consider to define an RPG to really be 'adventure game elements'.

Here's where both those definitions run into problems. Let's take Baldur's Gate 1, a game far more numbers heavy than it was role-playing heavy.

I've never seen anyone refer to it as an RPG/numbers game hybrid (as per your definition) or as an RPG/adventure game hybrid (as per the contrary position).Bioware labeled their game an 'RPG' and they've been pretty consistent about doing this.  'mmoRPG', 'action RPG', and 'JRPG' are all types of RPG which can often have no choice attached to them. Yet, still they are popularized as RPGs. Whatevere some might think the definition is based on pen and paper, definitions can change and evolve over time, especially when we adapt from pen and paper to the cRPG.

[Heimdall]

Gurris wrote...

IGN is a pretty damn stupid website as always.
I don't care who won the best RPG since I am eagerly looking forward to both Skyrim and ME3 but Bioshock Infinite getting so many awards including "Best Overall Game", "Best PC Game and "Best Shooter"? Really?

And Tomb Raider? Give me a break. Those guys are just horny teenagers diggin' the moans.

  Well, to be fair about Tomb Raider, the new series reboot Lara is more realisticlly proportional than Most of the Females in ME2.  Might actually end up being the first Tomb Raider game I consider getting...

I'm just going to end up getting all the games you've listed there