237 réponses à ce sujet

[Eshaye]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Cerberus becoming indoctrinated isn't contrived at all. Indoctrination has been a major plot point since day one and Cerberus has been aggressively experimenting with reaper technology since moment they acquired it. Experimentation on the technology known to cause indoctrination without knowing HOW that indoctrination occurs could very well lead to becoming indoctrinated for those doing the studying. There's no forced connection there, no artificial bridge. A very simple explanation for Cerberus working with the reapers? Yup. Contrived? Nope.

Cereberus experimenting on reaper tech can go both ways.

By aggressively studying the tech Cerberus has learned to resist indoctrination more effectively

I agree. I was only arguing that it wasn't contrived.

It's really not. I think Pro-Cerb people only use that excuse out of spite for Cerberus becoming the enemy again.

Oh I love this thread more and more. <3 Indoctrination is to me the main theme of Mass Effect. I see parallels with modern life and how we are ourselves brainwashed all the time by politics, media, entertainment and what not. I find the idea of indictrination very appealing because it screams what we do to each other all the time. 

I'm less concerned with indoctrination though then I am with what the Reapers are and how they came to be, we may never know but it would be neat if this is revealed in ME3 and mind fracks all of us. :happy:

edit: For the pro-Cerbies out there who would rather believe TIM just has a deeper game, dudes I hear you but the thing is the last comic Evolution leaves little doubt that TIM is indoctrinated to some degree. And it explains black on white how he's getting his shock troopers and how they all got indoctrinated. If he did what I think he did, he's succumbed to something he considered monstrous 30 years ago. 

Modifié par Eshaye, 10 juin 2011 - 04:14 .

[CitizenSnips]

laecraft wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Cerberus becoming indoctrinated isn't contrived at all. Indoctrination has been a major plot point since day one and Cerberus has been aggressively experimenting with reaper technology since moment they acquired it. Experimentation on the technology known to cause indoctrination without knowing HOW that indoctrination occurs could very well lead to becoming indoctrinated for those doing the studying. There's no forced connection there, no artificial bridge. A very simple explanation for Cerberus working with the reapers? Yup. Contrived? Nope.

It would make even more sense for the Alliance to become indoctrinated, since they're the ones who are studying the avatar's remains. Yet people would rage so much at having to shoot at the humans wearing masks and the Alliance logos. Hence this role falls to Cerberus. Let's face it, it's not about sense.

Also true but I am not arguing that. I am only arguing that Cerberus' indoctrination, if true, isn't contrived.

[Flashlegend]

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

laecraft wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Cerberus becoming indoctrinated isn't contrived at all. Indoctrination has been a major plot point since day one and Cerberus has been aggressively experimenting with reaper technology since moment they acquired it. Experimentation on the technology known to cause indoctrination without knowing HOW that indoctrination occurs could very well lead to becoming indoctrinated for those doing the studying. There's no forced connection there, no artificial bridge. A very simple explanation for Cerberus working with the reapers? Yup. Contrived? Nope.

It would make even more sense for the Alliance to become indoctrinated, since they're the ones who are studying the avatar's remains. Yet people would rage so much at having to shoot at the humans wearing masks and the Alliance logos. Hence this role falls to Cerberus. Let's face it, it's not about sense.

Also true but I am not arguing that. I am only arguing that Cerberus' indoctrination, if true, isn't contrived.

If event B and B alone happens when it makes a lot more sense for A to happen or A and B to happen, then one can describe event B as coming off as contrived. Very simple.

Modifié par Flashlegend, 10 juin 2011 - 04:13 .

[CitizenSnips]

Flashlegend wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

laecraft wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Cerberus becoming indoctrinated isn't contrived at all. Indoctrination has been a major plot point since day one and Cerberus has been aggressively experimenting with reaper technology since moment they acquired it. Experimentation on the technology known to cause indoctrination without knowing HOW that indoctrination occurs could very well lead to becoming indoctrinated for those doing the studying. There's no forced connection there, no artificial bridge. A very simple explanation for Cerberus working with the reapers? Yup. Contrived? Nope.

It would make even more sense for the Alliance to become indoctrinated, since they're the ones who are studying the avatar's remains. Yet people would rage so much at having to shoot at the humans wearing masks and the Alliance logos. Hence this role falls to Cerberus. Let's face it, it's not about sense.

Also true but I am not arguing that. I am only arguing that Cerberus' indoctrination, if true, isn't contrived.

If event B and B alone happens when it makes a lot more sense for A to happen or A and B to happen, then one can describe event B as coming off as contrived. Very simple.

Then what you are arguing is that the Alliance not being indoctrinated is the contrived part of plot, not that Cerberus being indoctrinated is contrived as I have argued. Thanks for backing me up.

[GreenDragon37]

laecraft wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Cerberus becoming indoctrinated isn't contrived at all. Indoctrination has been a major plot point since day one and Cerberus has been aggressively experimenting with reaper technology since moment they acquired it. Experimentation on the technology known to cause indoctrination without knowing HOW that indoctrination occurs could very well lead to becoming indoctrinated for those doing the studying. There's no forced connection there, no artificial bridge. A very simple explanation for Cerberus working with the reapers? Yup. Contrived? Nope.

It would make even more sense for the Alliance to become indoctrinated, since they're the ones who are studying the avatar's remains. Yet people would rage so much at having to shoot at the humans wearing masks and the Alliance logos. Hence this role falls to Cerberus. Let's face it, it's not about sense.

Well, Cerberus has been trying to foil their plans. Maybe they saw Cerberus as a bigger threat to deal with/asset to use. And Cerberus seems to be doing most of the experimenting with Reaper tech.  Besides, now that they're at Earth, they can indoctrinate Alliance officials to be agents for the Reapers. So, it's not just Cerberus that suffers. Besides, the Alliance suffers during the fall of Earth anyway. Humanity just lost its homeworld and no doubt a lot of Alliance ships. Worse, most of the Human population is still on Earth...

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 10 juin 2011 - 04:33 .

[Flashlegend]

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Flashlegend wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

laecraft wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Cerberus becoming indoctrinated isn't contrived at all. Indoctrination has been a major plot point since day one and Cerberus has been aggressively experimenting with reaper technology since moment they acquired it. Experimentation on the technology known to cause indoctrination without knowing HOW that indoctrination occurs could very well lead to becoming indoctrinated for those doing the studying. There's no forced connection there, no artificial bridge. A very simple explanation for Cerberus working with the reapers? Yup. Contrived? Nope.

It would make even more sense for the Alliance to become indoctrinated, since they're the ones who are studying the avatar's remains. Yet people would rage so much at having to shoot at the humans wearing masks and the Alliance logos. Hence this role falls to Cerberus. Let's face it, it's not about sense.

Also true but I am not arguing that. I am only arguing that Cerberus' indoctrination, if true, isn't contrived.

If event B and B alone happens when it makes a lot more sense for A to happen or A and B to happen, then one can describe event B as coming off as contrived. Very simple.

Then what you are arguing is that the Alliance not being indoctrinated is the contrived part of plot, not that Cerberus being indoctrinated is contrived as I have argued. Thanks for backing me up.

Actually NO, that's not at all what I said.

[CitizenSnips]

Flashlegend wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Flashlegend wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

laecraft wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Cerberus becoming indoctrinated isn't contrived at all. Indoctrination has been a major plot point since day one and Cerberus has been aggressively experimenting with reaper technology since moment they acquired it. Experimentation on the technology known to cause indoctrination without knowing HOW that indoctrination occurs could very well lead to becoming indoctrinated for those doing the studying. There's no forced connection there, no artificial bridge. A very simple explanation for Cerberus working with the reapers? Yup. Contrived? Nope.

It would make even more sense for the Alliance to become indoctrinated, since they're the ones who are studying the avatar's remains. Yet people would rage so much at having to shoot at the humans wearing masks and the Alliance logos. Hence this role falls to Cerberus. Let's face it, it's not about sense.

Also true but I am not arguing that. I am only arguing that Cerberus' indoctrination, if true, isn't contrived.

If event B and B alone happens when it makes a lot more sense for A to happen or A and B to happen, then one can describe event B as coming off as contrived. Very simple.

Then what you are arguing is that the Alliance not being indoctrinated is the contrived part of plot, not that Cerberus being indoctrinated is contrived as I have argued. Thanks for backing me up.

Actually NO, that's not at all what I said.

Scratch that, this is more complicated than transitive properties.

All I will say is that it is not contrived for Cerberus or Cerberus leadership to become indoctrinated for reasons I have already been over.

Modifié par mushoops86anjyl, 10 juin 2011 - 04:36 .

[GreenDragon37]

laecraft wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

laecraft wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Cerberus becoming indoctrinated isn't contrived at all. Indoctrination has been a major plot point since day one and Cerberus has been aggressively experimenting with reaper technology since moment they acquired it. Experimentation on the technology known to cause indoctrination without knowing HOW that indoctrination occurs could very well lead to becoming indoctrinated for those doing the studying. There's no forced connection there, no artificial bridge. A very simple explanation for Cerberus working with the reapers? Yup. Contrived? Nope.

It would make even more sense for the Alliance to become indoctrinated, since they're the ones who are studying the avatar's remains. Yet people would rage so much at having to shoot at the humans wearing masks and the Alliance logos. Hence this role falls to Cerberus. Let's face it, it's not about sense.

Also true but I am not arguing that. I am only arguing that Cerberus' indoctrination, if true, isn't contrived.

It's not unbelievable, it's not just satisfactory. Feels forced. Like bending the path so that it could reach the set destination. Even though the path doesn't naturally go that way, and nothing suggests that it would go that way.

And railroading people into joining Cerberus in ME2 wasn't being "forced" and "bending the path to reach the set destination"? Riiiight...

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 10 juin 2011 - 04:35 .

[Seboist]

laecraft wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Cerberus becoming indoctrinated isn't contrived at all. Indoctrination has been a major plot point since day one and Cerberus has been aggressively experimenting with reaper technology since moment they acquired it. Experimentation on the technology known to cause indoctrination without knowing HOW that indoctrination occurs could very well lead to becoming indoctrinated for those doing the studying. There's no forced connection there, no artificial bridge. A very simple explanation for Cerberus working with the reapers? Yup. Contrived? Nope.

It would make even more sense for the Alliance to become indoctrinated, since they're the ones who are studying the avatar's remains. Yet people would rage so much at having to shoot at the humans wearing masks and the Alliance logos. Hence this role falls to Cerberus. Let's face it, it's not about sense.

Cerberus are the convenient whipping boys of the devs along with the Batarians and Vorcha.

[Flashlegend]

Then you are wrong.

Umm. No. Would you like a definition?

Literary contrivance: A story element or plot development that seems unrealistic, but is necessary for the story to continue.

Our knowledge thus far from what the Devs have told us is that cerberus is going to be a main antagonist for Shepard and his crew in ME3. From what we know this doesn't seem realistic. Why? From what we've seen and experienced in the 2nd game Cerberus is UNDOUBTEDLY the organization best prepared to handle for the reaper invasion, simply because they  know about them and believe in them and most of their resources over the last two years have been poured into stopping them(shepard and intel gathering). So in ME3, you're telling me, the people best prepared for the reapers are magically going to be all indoctrinated and working for the reapers? Really now? That doesn't seem a tad bit unrealistic to you?

With that said, we have to take into consideration that ME3 will have a plot and things will happen that none of know about but still. Even if you say it isn't contrived. It's SURE AS HELL is forced and something I can definitely say is BAD WRITING.

Nothing new though, the first 10 minutes in Mass effect 2 were ridiculous as well.

Let's kill and immediately ressurect our hero and have the terrorist organization that he possibly thwarted time after time in the first game ressurect him simply because they see him as a heroic icon. Makes sense right?

[CitizenSnips]

laecraft wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

laecraft wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Cerberus becoming indoctrinated isn't contrived at all. Indoctrination has been a major plot point since day one and Cerberus has been aggressively experimenting with reaper technology since moment they acquired it. Experimentation on the technology known to cause indoctrination without knowing HOW that indoctrination occurs could very well lead to becoming indoctrinated for those doing the studying. There's no forced connection there, no artificial bridge. A very simple explanation for Cerberus working with the reapers? Yup. Contrived? Nope.

It would make even more sense for the Alliance to become indoctrinated, since they're the ones who are studying the avatar's remains. Yet people would rage so much at having to shoot at the humans wearing masks and the Alliance logos. Hence this role falls to Cerberus. Let's face it, it's not about sense.

Also true but I am not arguing that. I am only arguing that Cerberus' indoctrination, if true, isn't contrived.

It's not unbelievable, it's not just satisfactory. Feels forced. Like bending the path so that it could reach the set destination. Even though the path doesn't naturally go that way, and nothing suggests that it would go that way.

Except for TIM's experience with that artefact. But it's the only thing, and it feels like it's just set there like a chekov gun, to prevent the accusations of discontinuity. That's why it feels forced. Nothing else about TIM's character suggests that he would succumb to the indoctrination. Hell, even Grayson resisted it for more than a week, with the Reaper tech injected right into his body, and they had to use drugs on him to suppress his willpower to get any results. I'd say TIM has a tad more willpower than his former henchman.

I still don't see how it feels forced. Indoctrination is supposed to be one of the deadliest tools of the reapers not just because of its power but also its subtlety. It is supposed to be a force more powerful than any one organic mind, no matter how impressive that mind might be. One would need specific techonology to fight reaper indoctrination, and the quickest way to acquire that technology would be to study the reapers themselves, thereby putting oneself into the very situation one is trying to protect against. If anything went wrong during the study, if the reaper tech escaped whatever containment that was built around it, whoever was in the compromised area would be at severe risk of indoctrination. All this is assuming that those studying the reaper tech know how indoctrination works, which they don't, or that the containment would be effective. The indoctrination could very well bypass any and all barriers erected around it. Bottom line is that no one knows exactly how indoctrination works, only that it is incredibly powerful and subtle and that is has been shown many times throughout the series that being around any type of reaper or reaper technology is incredibly dangerous exactly because of the effects of indoctrination on organic minds.

The only possible discontinuity I see is our current Shepard not babbling to himself about how sweet the reapers are but then again it's hard for a game surrounding one man to go from an action hero shootout to a sit down love fest halfway through.

[JayhartRIC]

We already know they were experimenting with Reaper tech. Indoctrination is definitely a possibility.

[CitizenSnips]

Flashlegend wrote...

Then you are wrong.

Umm. No. Would you like a definition?

Literary contrivance: A story element or plot development that seems unrealistic, but is necessary for the story to continue.

Our knowledge thus far from what the Devs have told us is that cerberus is going to be a main antagonist for Shepard and his crew in ME3. From what we know this doesn't seem realistic. Why? From what we've seen and experienced in the 2nd game Cerberus is UNDOUBTEDLY the organization best prepared to handle for the reaper invasion, simply because they  know about them and believe in them and most of their resources over the last two years have been poured into stopping them(shepard and intel gathering). So in ME3, you're telling me, the people best prepared for the reapers are magically going to be all indoctrinated and working for the reapers? Really now? That doesn't seem a tad bit unrealistic to you?

With that said, we have to take into consideration that ME3 will have a plot and things will happen that none of know about but still. Even if you say it isn't contrived. It's SURE AS HELL is forced and something I can definitely say is BAD WRITING.

Nothing new though, the first 10 minutes in Mass effect 2 were ridiculous as well.

Let's kill and immediately ressurect our hero and have the terrorist organization that he possibly thwarted time after time in the first game ressurect him simply because they see him as a heroic icon. Makes sense right?

How the **** is this unrealistic? NO ONE FULLY UNDERSTANDS INDOCTRINATION. Period. That is one of the reasons WHY it is so powerful. What we DO know is that proximity to reaper tech LEADS TO indoctrination. So the organization cloesest to it, Cerberus, would most likely be the first to be indoctrinated. Not. Contrived.

[Flashlegend]

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Flashlegend wrote...

Then you are wrong.

Umm. No. Would you like a definition?

Literary contrivance: A story element or plot development that seems unrealistic, but is necessary for the story to continue.

Our knowledge thus far from what the Devs have told us is that cerberus is going to be a main antagonist for Shepard and his crew in ME3. From what we know this doesn't seem realistic. Why? From what we've seen and experienced in the 2nd game Cerberus is UNDOUBTEDLY the organization best prepared to handle for the reaper invasion, simply because they  know about them and believe in them and most of their resources over the last two years have been poured into stopping them(shepard and intel gathering). So in ME3, you're telling me, the people best prepared for the reapers are magically going to be all indoctrinated and working for the reapers? Really now? That doesn't seem a tad bit unrealistic to you?

With that said, we have to take into consideration that ME3 will have a plot and things will happen that none of know about but still. Even if you say it isn't contrived. It's SURE AS HELL is forced and something I can definitely say is BAD WRITING.

Nothing new though, the first 10 minutes in Mass effect 2 were ridiculous as well.

Let's kill and immediately ressurect our hero and have the terrorist organization that he possibly thwarted time after time in the first game ressurect him simply because they see him as a heroic icon. Makes sense right?

How the **** is this unrealistic? NO ONE FULLY UNDERSTANDS INDOCTRINATION. Period. That is one of the reasons WHY it is so powerful. What we DO know is that proximity to reaper tech LEADS TO indoctrination. So the organization cloesest to it, Cerberus, would most likely be the first to be indoctrinated. Not. Contrived.

Ok fine whatever. I'd just like to remind you indoctrination happens around reapers and reaper artifacts(well, atleast in arrival) and by the end of ME2 there's no indication Cerberus is holding onto any other 37 million year old derelict reapers. Of course that could change in ME3. Anyway, indoctrination itself is just a little ridiculous. It serves as a god mode plot device that makes for terrible terrible story telling. From a plot and story perspective, this series would have been a lot better off without it. Even if Cerberus becoming our enemies doesn't fit the literal definition, it still feels contrived because of how retarded indoctrination is.

edit: above post is does a much better job in explaining what i mean.

Modifié par Flashlegend, 10 juin 2011 - 06:53 .

[Killer3000ad]

My theory, TIM is convinced that the Reapers aim to uplift humanity by making us into Reapers like they were trying in ME2. IN his own twisted mind, that's not so bad compared to total extinction. after all, humanity having the chance at becoming part of an all powerful galactic-extinction causing race.

[SkittlesKat96]

phatpat63 wrote...

It's just arbitrary, contrived writing. Just like being forced to join Cerberus in the first place. Contrived in the same way most of ME2 was and everything we know about ME3s plot so far. Don't expect it to make any sense. That's simply asking to much.

The game isn't even out yet though.

[aerowars617]

In one of the E3 gameplay trailers you can hear Shep say "They're Indoctrinated" while he's fighting Cerberus on Surkesh... this is even clearer in the Biowware 30min livestream with Jesse Houston where Liara & Shep are bantering during combat & Shep says that. (I can't seem to find it on BioWare tv anymore!)
That kinda answers it for me but i suppose the bit that wasn't spoilled by Bioware is how & why?

[WizenSlinky0]

Thompson family wrote...

VI “Out of the Box”

Something completely different.

"And now for something completely different"

TIM is a unicorn.