237 réponses à ce sujet

[WizenSlinky0]

Eh you also have to take into consideration that Shepard is simply using the most logical conclusion to explain it, and doesn't actually know.

[moneycashgeorge]

Hey OP, #3 is truly a brilliant Idea. It totally fits TIM's character as a opportunist and as someone wiling to do anything, no matter how immoral, to achieve his goal, which is Human supremacy. He's also been characterized as highly arrogant, so I could definetly see him deluding himself that he could use the Reapers to attain his own goals, and somehow come out on top at the end.

Genius idea. TIM wants the Reapers to wipe out galactic civilization, with the twist being that he has a secret plan to preserve himself and a "select few" humans to repopulate the galaxy as overlords.

It takes Megalomania to a new epic level. Victory at any cost, even mass multiple genocide. I love it. I had given up hope on Mass Effect 3's story but this does work with the info we have now, and if Bioware has something even vaguely resembling this, I could definetly buy Cerberus as the villains.

Here's a cool idea. What if TIM himself is not indoctrinated (that would ruin is character and make him too much like Saren), but he's troopers are? What if Cerberus refuses to follow his ridiculous plan, so he has his own people indoctrinated so that they don't rebel?

Modifié par moneycashgeorge, 10 juin 2011 - 07:36 .

[Flashlegend]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Eh you also have to take into consideration that Shepard is simply using the most logical conclusion to explain it, and doesn't actually know.

I can't think of anything that wouldn't make cerberus coming after shepard completely illogical unless they're indoctrinated. If that line from Shepard is indeed an elaborate scheme to trick us all and surprise us when the game comes out then I tip my hat to Bioware. Otherwise, I think the answer is fairly clear.

Modifié par Flashlegend, 10 juin 2011 - 07:40 .

[JoltDealer]

The Illusive Man is very capable. In fact, too capable. If Cerberus is helping the Reapers, then I doubt the Illusive Man is part of it and if he is, he's likely not working directly with the Reapers. Even he knows how dangerous indoctrination is.

[TR0D]

Maybe (since the place where we fight Cerberus is supposed to be in the middle of the game) we fight indoctrinated Cerberus agents, but no longer part of cerberus?

Maybe during Earth invasion, Cerberus tried to destroy somes Reaper like we crashed the derelict Reaper in ME2 and they sended soldier to destroy some Reaper core. Eventually they failed and lost a couple of operatives who where indoctrinated.

As for the rapid attack against Earth even after the Arrival DLC, when TIM speak about the derelict reaper, he say he was disabled "37 million years ago when mammals where making their first step on Earth". So the Reaper where harvesting sentient life when Earth was starting to have a beginning of that stuff on it (sentient life). And in the same system they had a Relay, the Charon one. It will be logic if the Reaper were keeping small fleet near the possible futur spacefaring species homeworld they found just in case. After all, space is big and it's easy for them to be hidden in the dark space around a solar system.

[Eshaye]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Eh you also have to take into consideration that Shepard is simply using the most logical conclusion to explain it, and doesn't actually know.

We don't actually know what he knows or doesn't know yet....... 

Modifié par Eshaye, 10 juin 2011 - 10:25 .

[Isaidlunch]

If it's a result of Cerberus being reckless with Reaper tech again then it's contrived beyond all belief. After the Derelict Reaper it would make no sense for them not to have precautions in place to prevent indoctrination. ME2 levels of Cerberus incompetence made sense but this would be too much.

I really like 3A. It makes perfect sense if TIM believes the Reapers can't be stopped, I'd forgive them in a heartbeat for ME2's plot if they came up with something as genius as this.

[GreenDragon37]

laecraft wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

laecraft wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

laecraft wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Cerberus becoming indoctrinated isn't contrived at all. Indoctrination has been a major plot point since day one and Cerberus has been aggressively experimenting with reaper technology since moment they acquired it. Experimentation on the technology known to cause indoctrination without knowing HOW that indoctrination occurs could very well lead to becoming indoctrinated for those doing the studying. There's no forced connection there, no artificial bridge. A very simple explanation for Cerberus working with the reapers? Yup. Contrived? Nope.

It would make even more sense for the Alliance to become indoctrinated, since they're the ones who are studying the avatar's remains. Yet people would rage so much at having to shoot at the humans wearing masks and the Alliance logos. Hence this role falls to Cerberus. Let's face it, it's not about sense.

Also true but I am not arguing that. I am only arguing that Cerberus' indoctrination, if true, isn't contrived.

It's not unbelievable, it's not just satisfactory. Feels forced. Like bending the path so that it could reach the set destination. Even though the path doesn't naturally go that way, and nothing suggests that it would go that way.

And railroading people into joining Cerberus in ME2 wasn't being "forced" and "bending the path to reach the set destination"? Riiiight...

Are you saying that they're making a habit of it? To make sure that everyone suffers equally, in the end?

Maybe. It's a possibility. Paragons got screwed in ME2, maybe Renegades get screwed in ME3. Then again, everyone has been getting screwed throughout the series one way or another.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 10 juin 2011 - 02:59 .

[wildannie]

Indoctrination

The illusive man has been exposed long ago to reaper tech (Evolution)... look at his eyes, maybe it's been lying dormant within him and now it's taken him over.

[Thompson family]

Wow. This thread had one reply the last time I checked it. I go to bed and check it the next day, and there are 84 replies covering four pages.

Thanks for those links, laecraft. I'll edit them in to the OP as soon as I can — and check this thread more often.

Modifié par Thompson family, 10 juin 2011 - 08:11 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

I like the Double Cross theory, Thompson. Totally has TIM's name written on it.

[I AM KROGAAANNN]

Paragon Shep: Illusive Man loses all hope of victory against a numerically, physically, and technologically superior foe and gradually gets indoctrinated in a manner akin to Saren's.

Renegade Shep: Illusive Man gets brain f'd while tinkering with the Collector Base.

Its really simple guys. There's absolutely no need to complicate this.

[Thompson family]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

I like the Double Cross theory, Thompson. Totally has TIM's name written on it.

It would explain a lot, too.

[Homebound]

tim =/= saren and is bargaining with the reapers to spare them. odds are, humanity will become the new keepers if not melted into reaper goo.

[Jonathan Shepard]

II and IIIb have the most credibility, from what I perceive, especially if TIM was given the base.

[Thompson family]

I AM KROGAAANNN wrote...

Paragon Shep: Illusive Man loses all hope of victory against a numerically, physically, and technologically superior foe and gradually gets indoctrinated in a manner akin to Saren's.

Renegade Shep: Illusive Man gets brain f'd while tinkering with the Collector Base.

Its really simple guys. There's absolutely no need to complicate this.

That's probably the right answer.

In fact, that's the way I looked at it. My original stance was that anybody who trusted Cerberus was just gulllible. I've probably posted as many snippy rebuttals to Cerberus apologists as anybody on this forum.

However, a few of their arguments struck me as pretty darned good.

I'm not convinced, but I am impressed. Interested members of the forum ought to have a "one stop" menu where they can find related threads.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Thompson family wrote...

III. “The Double Cross”

TIM is playing a deep game in which he pretends to be on the Reaper’s side when he’s really not. He plans to betray them before they betray him.

    A. “The Survivalist” — TIM’s has prepared a cryogenic facility on a very remote planet, much like Ilos. After the Reapers leave, humans will emerge with their technology up-to-date and dominate the galaxy more completely than otherwise possible. Of course, it will take years of quiet rebuilding before they’re ready to hunt down and kill the “lone sentry” like Sovereign that the Reapers leave behind.
 

This is the most original one I've heard yet. Right now I like it the most, just on that fact.

[AnklaX]

When I saw Illusive man's eyes, I thought something's fishy. Could it be that TIM was indoctrinated even at the start of ME2. Of course, then you'd say why bring back Shephard with all the hard work. Maybe they revived Shephard to keep him busy with stopping the collectors distracting him from dealing with the reaper arrival. Also Shephard will be trying to convince the Alliance to help him with the human abduction. Maybe others who are concerned will also look into the collector problem, like the Alliance was found doing - setting up guardian cannons to protect colonies. So the Alliance and Shephard would both be distracted from finding out what the reapers were doing. Maybe Harbinger thought this was a good plan since after arrival of the reapers, its all over and Shephard could do nothing. Remember that Shephard was brought back from the dead and who else but the reapers could possess such tech. So maybe ME2 was the story of Harbinger playing tricks on the gamers.

[Blandi3737]

If we have to go and completely annihilate the entire Cerberus organization and kill TIM I will return my game right then and there. Indoctrination, bs. Cerberus is the only organization that's even the slightest bit prepared for the Reapers. TIM making a deal with the devil? No fricking way, TIM has never been written as a retard. All I see is that BW needed a ground army for Shep to fight that wasnt just pure husks and bandits, and so they put in Cerberus because they are unpopular. Also, if we find out that TIM was indoctrinated the entire time, ME 2 would be the most pointless filler ever.

Modifié par Blandi3737, 10 juin 2011 - 07:13 .

[GreenDragon37]

Blandi3737 wrote...

If we have to go and completely annihilate the entire Cerberus organization and kill TIM I will return my game right then and there. Indoctrination, bs. Cerberus is the only organization that's even the slightest bit prepared for the Reapers. TIM making a deal with the devil? No fricking way, TIM has never been written as a retard. All I see is that BW needed a ground army for Shep to fight that wasnt just pure husks and bandits, and so they put in Cerberus because they are unpopular. Also, if we find out that TIM was indoctrinated the entire time, ME 2 would be the most pointless filler ever.

It wasn't pointless, but I never liked Cerberus to begin with. And TIM would do anything to protect Humanity, even if it meant making a deal with the devil. TIM isn't a retard, but he is arrogant and overconfident, and again, he will go to any lengths to protect Humanity, he said so himself. If he is Indoctrinated, I'll be alright with that, but they need something more. Like he had an ulterior motive, but he underestimated the Reapers, just like Saren. Large results, heavy risk. TIM might have taken a risk that he couldn't afford to take this time.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 10 juin 2011 - 07:21 .

[AshleyS3]

I'm curious about when the illusive man was indoctrinated (if he was). Was it before, during, or after ME2? Were there maybe clues that he became indoctrinated at some point during ME2?

[GreenDragon37]

AshleyS3 wrote...

I'm curious about when the illusive man was indoctrinated (if he was). Was it before, during, or after ME2? Were there maybe clues that he became indoctrinated at some point during ME2?

I'm guessing that ever since he learned about the Reapers, he knew that the Reaper tech inside him would leave him vulnerable to the Reapers. Maybe he tried for years to find a way to slow it down/stop it, but as the Reapers got closser, he started losing the inner struggle for control. However, he would have some contingency plans in-case he failed.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 10 juin 2011 - 07:40 .

[Blandi3737]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Blandi3737 wrote...

If we have to go and completely annihilate the entire Cerberus organization and kill TIM I will return my game right then and there. Indoctrination, bs. Cerberus is the only organization that's even the slightest bit prepared for the Reapers. TIM making a deal with the devil? No fricking way, TIM has never been written as a retard. All I see is that BW needed a ground army for Shep to fight that wasnt just pure husks and bandits, and so they put in Cerberus because they are unpopular. Also, if we find out that TIM was indoctrinated the entire time, ME 2 would be the most pointless filler ever.

It wasn't pointless, but I never liked Cerberus to begin with. And TIM would do anything to protect Humanity, even if it meant making a deal with the devil. TIM isn't a retard, but he is arrogant and overconfident, and again, he will go to any lengths to protect Humanity, he said so himself. If he is Indoctrinated, I'll be alright with that, but they need something more. Like he had an ulterior motive, but he underestimated the Reapers, just like Saren. Large results, heavy risk. TIM might have taken a risk that he couldn't afford to take this time.

it would be pointless if we find out TIM was indoctrinated the whole time. It would make ME 2 nothing more than a rat race designed by the Reapers to just play with Shepard. So you are telling me the guy who knows that the Reapers DO NOT WORK WITH ORGANICS would try to make a deal with them? And then you are going to say that he isn't a retard for doing that? BS. And before you say "But the Reapers worked with Saren" or something to that degree with the geth. Just remember that the Reapers were going to dispose of them at the end of their campaign. The best you can do with the Reapers is to have your race become keepers, collectors, or new Reapers. Non of which TIM has shown any indication that he would allow humanity to become. I would also find it hard to believe that after the Grayson incident TIM would put himself in a position of danger/possible indoctrination. Iirc he basically beats himself up for being so exposed and kind of becomes paranoid (this part I am not too sure on).

Modifié par Blandi3737, 10 juin 2011 - 07:48 .

[Blandi3737]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

AshleyS3 wrote...

I'm curious about when the illusive man was indoctrinated (if he was). Was it before, during, or after ME2? Were there maybe clues that he became indoctrinated at some point during ME2?

I'm guessing that ever since he learned about the Reapers, he knew that the Reaper tech inside him would leave him vulnerable to the Reapers. Maybe he tried for years to find a way to slow it down/stop it, but as the Reapers got closser, he started losing the inner struggle for control. However, he would have some contingency plans in-case he failed.

If thats the route they take, he definitely would have some sort of contingency plan that would prevent all of Cerberus from trying to destroy humanity.