237 réponses à ce sujet

[squee913]

Shepard laid a finger on TIM's Butterfinger....

[Blandi3737]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Blandi3737 wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Blandi3737 wrote...

Oh my god, now we are combining indoctrination theory with survivalist theory? HOW IS HE USING HIS FREE WILL TO ENACT THIS SURVIVALIST PLAN IF HE IS INDOCTRINATED? TIM's best chance of survival is to stay on his secret base and avoid the Reapers, preventing indoctrination, saving everyone in the base, and preventing the Reapers from stumbling across one of these "bases" and realizing they have to hunt all of them down. You aren't giving TIM the credit the ME universe demands that you do....

Because he's Human like everyone else. He's not infalliabe. He knew the Reapers were coming, and he decided to inact a survivalist contingency plan. However, while in the process of this, he became completely indoctrinated. TIM would have destroyed whatever records he had of Cerberus's plans, again, as a pre-caution. It's not hard to believe.

Unless they magic indoctrinate him on his secret base I dont see TIM putting himself in a position to become indoctrinated. Not to mention if TIM was ever going to go down the survivalist path he would have started it as a contingency before the Collector base was destroyed/captured. 

How do you know he hasn't? No-one knew TIM had so many ships, or a big army. I doubt we know half of what Cerberus does. TIM is a smart man, right? He would have had plans.

Ok thanks for taking that bait because that would completely eliminate the need to BUY TIME if he had already set it in motion. It just becomes idiotic to become counterproductive toward the galaxy's fight for survival.

[Dannyboy9876]

The Double Cross may be Clichéd now,, but tbh, I think it would be awesome.

[GreenDragon37]

Blandi3737 wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Blandi3737 wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Blandi3737 wrote...

Oh my god, now we are combining indoctrination theory with survivalist theory? HOW IS HE USING HIS FREE WILL TO ENACT THIS SURVIVALIST PLAN IF HE IS INDOCTRINATED? TIM's best chance of survival is to stay on his secret base and avoid the Reapers, preventing indoctrination, saving everyone in the base, and preventing the Reapers from stumbling across one of these "bases" and realizing they have to hunt all of them down. You aren't giving TIM the credit the ME universe demands that you do....

Because he's Human like everyone else. He's not infalliabe. He knew the Reapers were coming, and he decided to inact a survivalist contingency plan. However, while in the process of this, he became completely indoctrinated. TIM would have destroyed whatever records he had of Cerberus's plans, again, as a pre-caution. It's not hard to believe.

Unless they magic indoctrinate him on his secret base I dont see TIM putting himself in a position to become indoctrinated. Not to mention if TIM was ever going to go down the survivalist path he would have started it as a contingency before the Collector base was destroyed/captured. 

How do you know he hasn't? No-one knew TIM had so many ships, or a big army. I doubt we know half of what Cerberus does. TIM is a smart man, right? He would have had plans.

Ok thanks for taking that bait because that would completely eliminate the need to BUY TIME if he had already set it in motion. It just becomes idiotic to become counterproductive toward the galaxy's fight for survival.

Who knows how long it would take to inact? Maybe the plan isn't completely finished yet.

The point is, there are multiple theories as to why TIM is indoctrinated and/or why he is working with the Reapers.

[Kreid]

My best bet is that TIM is trying to gain time, he's struck a deal with the Reapers saying Cerberus would take on Shepard while behind the scenes he's just sending enemies he knows Shepard can take on.
That way Shepard can slowly make his/her way through the galaxy rallying all the races without the bulk of the Reaper fleet going after him/her, eventually the Reapers will grow impatient with each of Shepard's achievements and Cerberus will find itself in a compromised position at which time we'll possibly be given the choice of either destroy them completely or save them and have them by our side in the last stand, after this point Harbinger will possibly throw everything he ahs against Shepard and his/her army.

[CroGamer002]

squee913 wrote...

Shepard laid a finger on TIM's Butterfinger....

The hell?

[Blandi3737]

Mesina2 wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Shepard laid a finger on TIM's Butterfinger....

The hell?

Most credible theory yet!

[Blandi3737]

Creid-X wrote...

My best bet is that TIM is trying to gain time, he's struck a deal with the Reapers saying Cerberus would take on Shepard while behind the scenes he's just sending enemies he knows Shepard can take on.
That way Shepard can slowly make his/her way through the galaxy rallying all the races without the bulk of the Reaper fleet going after him/her, eventually the Reapers will grow impatient with each of Shepard's achievements and Cerberus will find itself in a compromised position at which time we'll possibly be given the choice of either destroy them completely or save them and have them by our side in the last stand, after this point Harbinger will possibly throw everything he ahs against Shepard and his/her army.

This is probably the best route but they wont take it imo

[wildannie]

Bluefuse wrote...

I laugh at the thought of BioWare making TIM indoctrinated. Look outside the box and realize that they would not do that to his character. Mac Walters said himself that he took pride in what he did with creating TIM. It would not give his character justice if he was indoctrinated...

If properly done I think TIM being indoctrinated could be quite poignant.  If he is, I don't think it was his plan, rather he's succumbed to the reapers and lost himself.  I think the idea that the illusive man is somehow immune to the power of the reapers is quite absurd... noone is.

[Deganis76]

COMIC BOOK SPOILER: In Mass Effect Evolution, TIM (Jack Harper) is exposed to a Reaper artifact when he is working for the Alliance as a mercenary. The exposure to the Artifact is what gives him his glowing eyes. Pure speculation, but I think that TIM is subtly indoctrinated, and that Cerberus' xenophobic manifesto furthers the Reapers goal of domination by making sure that the other species do not unify to oppose them (essentially driving wedges). By the time that ME3 begins, I think TIM will be even more firmly under the Reapers control...although he (like Saren) may not truly realize he is being controlled..

[jeweledleah]

my theory:

not sure if its been mentioned but did it occur to anyone that lazarus project might not be a one time deal. what if TIM was looking for ways to extend his life etc. but you know that's a pretty pricey research to just undertake. he's also watching Shepard figuring out ways how to possibly use him. what if... he was the one who set up the whole attack on the normandy? why is it that collectors keep shooting at the normandy but leave escape pods intact? how did he set up that damaged collector ship, heck how did he set up so nicely the ambush on Horizon? if colectors are going after SHepard or people connected to Shepard, why didn't they go after Liara (especially if you consider that she stole the body from them). why not Joker. or Tali. or Anderson. why virmire survivor specifically, who just happens to be the ONLY person TIM blocks you outright from contacting.

you know how Wrex sets it up so that you clean up the house for him, removing the ally who is no longer useful, before that ally can become full fledged enemy? what stops TIM from doing same? here's a very lovely useful test subject. here's an uneasy alien ally that will have to be removed sooner or later - Collectors.

We don't know much about TIM's plans. but we do know that he is manipulative, ruthless and smarter then he lets on (wasn't aware of all those rogue projects, my butt - I have no doubts that he was perfectly aware - after all he was the one keeping Jack locked up on purgatory until she could be used.)

Shepard has served his/her purpose. even pro Cerberus Shepard is potential hindrance/threat. TIM doesn't need to be indoctrinated in order to decide that he no longer needs Shepard alive.

[wildannie]

Deganis76 wrote...

COMIC BOOK SPOILER: In Mass Effect Evolution, TIM (Jack Harper) is exposed to a Reaper artifact when he is working for the Alliance as a mercenary. The exposure to the Artifact is what gives him his glowing eyes. Pure speculation, but I think that TIM is subtly indoctrinated, and that Cerberus' xenophobic manifesto furthers the Reapers goal of domination by making sure that the other species do not unify to oppose them (essentially driving wedges). By the time that ME3 begins, I think TIM will be even more firmly under the Reapers control...although he (like Saren) may not truly realize he is being controlled..

EXACTLY!

[Slurms McKenzie]

My guess is TIM is high. Maybe, he's high on a drug called Charlie Sheen.

Good Luck and Stay Safe

Modifié par Slurms McKenzie, 10 juin 2011 - 09:22 .

[-Skorpious-]

I. Indoctrination

TIM is a smart man (at least I hope he is) so he would never willingly betray humanity to save his own skin, nor do I believe that the horrible evolution comics should tie into the videogames official plot/canon (it probably will though). My idea is really quite simple -

TIM begins exploring reaper tech gained from ME2 (regardless of the endgame decision)

TIM uncovers a startling breakthrough regarding the ability to resist indoctrination

TIM, confident in this breakthrough, begins extensive testing

However the reapers, aware of his meddling, use the importunity to implant false hope in TIM - instead, they slowly
calculate TIM's moves, fooling him into believing he has invincibility and guide him along a path of their own creation

TIM, completely confident in his research, attempts to dwell further and further into the topic of indoctrination

To sum it up, TIM is slowly (but eventually) indoctrinated by the reapers

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 10 juin 2011 - 09:38 .

[wildannie]

-Skorpious- wrote...

I. Indoctrination

TIM is a smart man (at least I hope he is) so he would never willingly betray humanity to save his own skin, nor do I believe that the horrible evolution comics should tie into the videogames official plot/canon (it probably will though). My idea is really quite simple -

TIM begins exploring reaper tech gained from ME2 (regardless of the endgame decision)

TIM uncovers a startling breakthrough regarding the ability to resist indoctrination

TIM, confident in this breakthrough, begins extensive testing

However the reapers, aware of his meddling, use the importunity to implant false hope in TIM - instead, they slowly
calculate TIM's moves, fooling him into believing he has invincibility and guide him along a path of their own creation

TIM, completely confident in his research, attempts to dwell further and further into the topic of indoctrination
To sum it up, TIM is slowly (but eventually) indoctrinated by the reapers

Okay, so evolution wasn't the best, but I doubt that TIM would ever be so confident to expose himself to such research.  This is cerberus, they seem to routinely carry our experiments on those who cannot fight back, he'd surely have followed the 'human guinea pig' route from a very safe distance.  I think that his exposure during Evolution makes sense for future indoctrination,  the fact that he's partailly huskified (sorry the rum's making up words) indicates that he's already had a significant exposure to the reapers powers.

Modifié par wildannie, 10 juin 2011 - 09:42 .

[Bluefuse]

-Skorpious- wrote...

I. Indoctrination

TIM is a smart man (at least I hope he is) so he would never willingly betray humanity to save his own skin, nor do I believe that the horrible evolution comics should tie into the videogames official plot/canon (it probably will though). My idea is really quite simple -

TIM begins exploring reaper tech gained from ME2 (regardless of the endgame decision)

TIM uncovers a startling breakthrough regarding the ability to resist indoctrination

TIM, confident in this breakthrough, begins extensive testing

However the reapers, aware of his meddling, use the importunity to implant false hope in TIM - instead, they slowly
calculate TIM's moves, fooling him into believing he has invincibility and guide him along a path of their own creation

TIM, completely confident in his research, attempts to dwell further and further into the topic of indoctrination

To sum it up, TIM is slowly (but eventually) indoctrinated by the reapers

There is a possibility that TIM has been indoctrinated since before ME2 even started... Read this from another thread...

ME-ParaShep wrote...

Serpenttt92 wrote...

TIM is not indoctrinated.

Then
how do you explain TIM initially sending Miranda and some Cerberus
units to retrieve Shepard's body after the events of ME 1, spending
billions of credits and 2 years to procure Shepard's revival, looking up
dossiers of the best people in their professions and giving them to
Shepard, building a new Normandy, giving the Normandy and Shepard a new
crew, and funding some of Shepard's missions then suddenly TIM is
sending Shepard and his crew into dangerous missions with high risks of
death like Horizon and fabricating a false distress signal from a
"turian scouting ship" so Shepard can be caught in a trap set by the
Collectors.

Ok stop and think for a moment.. Why would a
Collector ship be stalled out in the Terminus? If TIM made the false
message, then how exactly does he know that the Collectors were there?
The Turians wouldn't have been there if the message was false from the
beginning. The Collectors KNEW that Shepard would be coming. TIM KNEW
that Shepard and his crew would be going into a trap. Why would TIM send
Shepard over to the Collector ship anyways? There are some reasons..
like seeing what kind of tech they have.. what they could be storing on
that ship.. reasons as to why they're capturing humans.. etc, but TIM
throws a problem at Shepard and blindly Shepard has to figure out what
his objective is, if not the objective is vague and not as important as
other possible objectives.

When the suicide mission happens,
Shepard is ready to destroy the Collector Base when TIM coincidentally
shows up trying to persuade Shepard to preserve the base. As you try to
reason with him to destroy the base because it's an abomination, the
tech that the base holds is too nasty and amoral. Also implying that TIM
might be crazy enough to build his own Reaper (and we know that Reapers
can't be controlled and it's insane to even think that you can control
one). If you have chosen to destroy the base, TIM gets upset and
frustrated.

Now stop and ponder again. Up until now TIM has been
very calm, smooth, and slick. Now in a flash he's angry and very
disappointed with destroying the base. Now think about it from a
renegade perspective. Say that you gave TIM the Collector Base. TIM is
very pleased and from the cutscene. You did everything that he wanted
without fail. Then why..? Why is he out to hunt you in ME 3 if you did
so much for him? The obvious and most likely reason is "He's
indoctrinated"

Reasons why he is indoctrinated (without the comic involved): 

1)
Shepard is the icon of humanity. Hurting Shepard would only destroy
what TIM invested in from the beginning of ME 2 and hurt Cerberus'
reputation for stopping the one man who would save the galaxy and
humanity.

2) His actions in ME 2 reflected subtle assistance of
helping the Collectors (and thus the Reapers) retrieve Shepard's body.
That was a goal that they had all along even before the events of ME 2.
Cerberus may have been helping humanity in the beginning, but like Dr.
Kenson in DLC Arrival, but like the sadly indoctrinated doctor who
suddenly turned to aid the Reapers, TIM has become the same as her
slowly but surely. His actions reflected his transformed mental state.

3)
Regardless of your ending choice in ME 2, he still has something
sinister on his mind. You can see it on his face. Whether it be to
further aid the Reapers as confirmed already or it be to destroy Shepard
and take on the role as the predominant icon of humanity. Doing so only
negates their popularity even further. Sadly, because they are hurting
Shepard, they're automatically on the side of the Reapers. Shepard is
the key to winning the war after all. If Cerberus, with all of it's
money and resources, could put up a stand to the Reapers alongside the
rest of the galaxy and change it's reputation for the better, but it
decided to go the wrong route and deny their humanity.

[-Skorpious-]

I generalized frequently in my original post. When I said "begins extensive testing" that applies (but is not limited to) human testing.

Plus, I refuse to support anything Darkhorse publishes regarding ME; even if it is written by Walters. Just a personal preference, even if I know the comics will tie into the games somewhat (Retribution, unfortunately, happend afterall).

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 10 juin 2011 - 09:50 .

[GreenDragon37]

Bluefuse wrote...

-Skorpious- wrote...

I. Indoctrination

TIM is a smart man (at least I hope he is) so he would never willingly betray humanity to save his own skin, nor do I believe that the horrible evolution comics should tie into the videogames official plot/canon (it probably will though). My idea is really quite simple -

TIM begins exploring reaper tech gained from ME2 (regardless of the endgame decision)

TIM uncovers a startling breakthrough regarding the ability to resist indoctrination

TIM, confident in this breakthrough, begins extensive testing

However the reapers, aware of his meddling, use the importunity to implant false hope in TIM - instead, they slowly
calculate TIM's moves, fooling him into believing he has invincibility and guide him along a path of their own creation

TIM, completely confident in his research, attempts to dwell further and further into the topic of indoctrination

To sum it up, TIM is slowly (but eventually) indoctrinated by the reapers

There is a possibility that TIM has been indoctrinated since before ME2 even started... Read this from another thread...

ME-ParaShep wrote...

Serpenttt92 wrote...

TIM is not indoctrinated.

Then
how do you explain TIM initially sending Miranda and some Cerberus
units to retrieve Shepard's body after the events of ME 1, spending
billions of credits and 2 years to procure Shepard's revival, looking up
dossiers of the best people in their professions and giving them to
Shepard, building a new Normandy, giving the Normandy and Shepard a new
crew, and funding some of Shepard's missions then suddenly TIM is
sending Shepard and his crew into dangerous missions with high risks of
death like Horizon and fabricating a false distress signal from a
"turian scouting ship" so Shepard can be caught in a trap set by the
Collectors.

Ok stop and think for a moment.. Why would a
Collector ship be stalled out in the Terminus? If TIM made the false
message, then how exactly does he know that the Collectors were there?
The Turians wouldn't have been there if the message was false from the
beginning. The Collectors KNEW that Shepard would be coming. TIM KNEW
that Shepard and his crew would be going into a trap. Why would TIM send
Shepard over to the Collector ship anyways? There are some reasons..
like seeing what kind of tech they have.. what they could be storing on
that ship.. reasons as to why they're capturing humans.. etc, but TIM
throws a problem at Shepard and blindly Shepard has to figure out what
his objective is, if not the objective is vague and not as important as
other possible objectives.

When the suicide mission happens,
Shepard is ready to destroy the Collector Base when TIM coincidentally
shows up trying to persuade Shepard to preserve the base. As you try to
reason with him to destroy the base because it's an abomination, the
tech that the base holds is too nasty and amoral. Also implying that TIM
might be crazy enough to build his own Reaper (and we know that Reapers
can't be controlled and it's insane to even think that you can control
one). If you have chosen to destroy the base, TIM gets upset and
frustrated.

Now stop and ponder again. Up until now TIM has been
very calm, smooth, and slick. Now in a flash he's angry and very
disappointed with destroying the base. Now think about it from a
renegade perspective. Say that you gave TIM the Collector Base. TIM is
very pleased and from the cutscene. You did everything that he wanted
without fail. Then why..? Why is he out to hunt you in ME 3 if you did
so much for him? The obvious and most likely reason is "He's
indoctrinated"

Reasons why he is indoctrinated (without the comic involved): 

1)
Shepard is the icon of humanity. Hurting Shepard would only destroy
what TIM invested in from the beginning of ME 2 and hurt Cerberus'
reputation for stopping the one man who would save the galaxy and
humanity.

2) His actions in ME 2 reflected subtle assistance of
helping the Collectors (and thus the Reapers) retrieve Shepard's body.
That was a goal that they had all along even before the events of ME 2.
Cerberus may have been helping humanity in the beginning, but like Dr.
Kenson in DLC Arrival, but like the sadly indoctrinated doctor who
suddenly turned to aid the Reapers, TIM has become the same as her
slowly but surely. His actions reflected his transformed mental state.

3)
Regardless of your ending choice in ME 2, he still has something
sinister on his mind. You can see it on his face. Whether it be to
further aid the Reapers as confirmed already or it be to destroy Shepard
and take on the role as the predominant icon of humanity. Doing so only
negates their popularity even further. Sadly, because they are hurting
Shepard, they're automatically on the side of the Reapers. Shepard is
the key to winning the war after all. If Cerberus, with all of it's
money and resources, could put up a stand to the Reapers alongside the
rest of the galaxy and change it's reputation for the better, but it
decided to go the wrong route and deny their humanity.

That's what I like about the theory. He played you. He made you believe in him, but you never knew who you were believing in. Maybe TIM didn't even realize it himself.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 10 juin 2011 - 09:47 .

[GABy GaBS]

I've never liked the idea of Cerberus been indoctrinated, to me, it just oversimplifies the story; yeah, I'm not much into stories about dichotomical conflicts.

What I would love to see in this final instalment is a kind of race between Cerberus and the Reapers, one for domination and the latest for extermination.

I imagined Cerberus fighting together with the other races against the Reapers, but making sure that humanity would be the leading race in the galaxy by the end of the conflict;  given that they already have made advances on Reaper technology that could gave them advantage against the Reapers and anyone else. And Shepard being just an unpleasant variable for both interests.

I figured that TIM might want Shepard dead cause he could be the only person with the knowledge and the guts to stand against Cerberus and their goals. 

But that's just what I would liked to be. Sorry for my grammar or syntaxis, I'm not a native English speaker. 

Modifié par GABy GaBS, 10 juin 2011 - 10:06 .

[Slurms McKenzie]

Alright guys, here's my theory:

The Illusive Man got high, went on a bender that can only be described as a voyage to tripout city and decided to turn on Shepard for the hell of it. Then he just sort of wandered off somewhere........................................................

Good Luck and Stay Safe

[Thompson family]

New link: See Cerberus Plan B under III — A — 1.

[ramnozack]

jesus page long ****ing quotes -facepalm-

[Thompson family]

Added A reason Cerberus might be after Shepard II--A--1.

[PeacePAIX]

From what I have read so far on this forum the reason's tend to lean towards indoctrination of TIM and of Cerberus but personally I believe and hope that the Bioware writers aren't going to go that route or at least hide it behind the contrived fallacy of the Illusive Man being indoctrinated. I think with Bioware's writing staff can come up with some clever work which will most likely be perceived as a type I scenario from the outside and even to Shepard but in the Illusive Man's scheme it is some sort of type III scenario where he betrays the repears and does these things and actions to aid Shepard in the long run.

Bioware has said themselves that the Illusive Man is very powerful figure in the Mass effect universe, powerful in ability and the image he delivers to the game. And to give him the same ending as Saren is just not how their writing staff should approach. Ultimately I think they are going to make him a double agent, who will appear to work with the Repears to Shepard, the galaxy and to his own operatives (who may themselves be indoctrinated for real). And I think he will end up helping Shepard in the end and perhaps provide the key to defeating the Repears for good.

The Illusive Man was exposed to the Repear technology in the Evolution, which didn't have the same effect as it did on the Turian or Ben (aka turn him into a mindless attack monkey) so he instead may have become stronger from it. The Illusive Man and Miranda both stated that Shepard is a hero and an icon not only for humanity but for the galaxy and will need to became that figure head for Mass effect 3 in order to defeat the Repears. I think Mass Effect 2 was about the Illusive Man giving Shepard the resources to get back on his feet to help defeat the Collectors and Repears. And that Mass effect 3 will consist of the Illusive Man doing what he has to, to gain information on the Repears and just generally begin to break things down from the inside against the Repears.

[scarletsteam]

i honistly just want my male shepard [renegade] to put a bullet or 2 in TIM's head and my female shepard [paragon] to kick his ass and humiliate him!:devil:

Modifié par scarletsteam, 29 juin 2011 - 05:45 .