237 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumikki]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Big_Stupid_Jelly wrote...

The problem with surrender, is that its a one way ticket to the slush factory.

Have you not read a single damned word I've said? I've covered this.

We have, it just doesn't make sense.

You think that when human is turned to juice and used as building reaper, some kind super human reaper is born. You never thinked possibility that human juice is just building material, like metal for build ship, nothing more.

Modifié par Lumikki, 29 juin 2011 - 08:28 .

[Big_Stupid_Jelly]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

We have, it just doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense. Granted it requires critical thinking skills and the willingness to accept uncomfortable truths. "Humanity" doesn't have to mean squishy humans as we know them. It could also mean a Reaper made from humans which carries on the genetic material of our species (as it is implied Reapers do).

Why would you want to exist, if its even possible, as part of some kind of human co-operative reaper?  I'm guessing it would be like the Scions etc in ME2 but on a vast scale.

Sounds like a fate worse than death for me personally.

[Lumikki]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

We have, it just doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense. Granted it requires critical thinking skills and the willingness to accept uncomfortable truths. "Humanity" doesn't have to mean squishy humans as we know them. It could also mean a Reaper made from humans which carries on the genetic material of our species (as it is implied Reapers do).

Yes, but humans are more than genetic material. If we lose what we are, what's the point.
I hell don't want my genetic material to be some super races "ships" part and think I'm saved.

[Big_Stupid_Jelly]

Lumikki wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

We have, it just doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense. Granted it requires critical thinking skills and the willingness to accept uncomfortable truths. "Humanity" doesn't have to mean squishy humans as we know them. It could also mean a Reaper made from humans which carries on the genetic material of our species (as it is implied Reapers do).

Yes, but humans are more than genetic material. If we lose what we are, what's the point.
I hell don't want my genetic material to be some super races "ships" part and think I'm saved.

Also on a sidenote, what would the human made up reaper feed off? Other species?

[Big_Stupid_Jelly]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Big_Stupid_Jelly wrote...


Why would you want to exist, if its even possible, as part of some kind of human co-operative reaper?

It isn't about what I want. What matter is the species as a whole, which is far greater than any mere individual.

The species wouldn't exist though, it woud be squished together, for sake of argument lets say as intact individuals, as one large construct, where the bodies are fused together organically somehow.

All surviving humanity would go hurtling through space in its Reaper ship armour, then in 50,000years we'd be back to exterminate some poor species who's advanced enough to be tasty.

[Lumikki]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Big_Stupid_Jelly wrote...

The species wouldn't exist though, it woud be squished together, for sake of argument lets say as intact individuals, as one large construct, where the bodies are fused together organically somehow.

It's the same species, just changed. Actually, think of it more as the descendant of that species. The Reaper will not be humanity, it will descended from humanity.

That's where you go wrong, human reaper is not same species, it's full blood reaper with they knowledge and thinking. Every human would be just genetic juice inside that reaper, without any life or thought about what humans ones was. All what that human reaper would know would be same what every reaper would know.

Modifié par Lumikki, 29 juin 2011 - 08:59 .

[Weskerr]

I watched the full gameplay trailer just yesterday and there really is no "mystery" as to why Cerberus is attacking Shepard. As Shepard is moving through the Salarian homeworld with Liara and Garus, the former states - 6 minutes and 41 seconds into the trailer - "Cerberus just don't quit, do they?!" Shepard's immediate response, without a tinge of doubt in his voice, says "They're indoctrinated. They're capable of anything." He doesn't sound like he's unsure or guessing or theorizing or stating his conviction, but rather that he knows exactly why they are attacking him. Also, remember that when Shepard is on the Salarian homeworld about half the game has been completed.

And also ask yourself the question, "Why is Cerberus trying to prevent Shepard from freeing the fertile Krogan female, and thus preventing an alliance between the Krogan and the Turians?" Without these two races cooperating with each other, a defense against the Reapers is less likely to succeed than if they were allies. Cerberus must know this. Hampering a defense or even a counter-offensive against the Reapers and ultimately stopping them goes against Cerberus' main objective which was clearly laid out in ME2 - stop the Reapers by any means necessary.

Whether or not TIM is indoctrinated cannot be ascertained. Seeing how secluded he made himself and how secretive he kept his location even from most of his own operatives in ME2 makes me think that he is not. Not even the Shadow Broker could determine his location (the Yahg, not Liara). However, logic does not necessarily dicate the events that unfold in a fictional story. Writes do necessarily dictate them. So TIM could be indoctrinated, although that would not make much sense from a logical standpoint from what we know about him. If he's not indoctrinated, then we can speculate that a portion of Cerberus was indoctrinated such as their military wing. They could have been indoctrinated while securing a Reaper relic or something. Who knows.

Edit: Here's a link to the full gameplay trailer:

Modifié par Weskerr, 29 juin 2011 - 09:15 .

[Lumikki]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lumikki wrote...


That's where you go wrong, human reaper is not same species, it's full blood reaper with they knowledge and thinking. Every human would be just genetic juice inside that reaper, without any life or thought about what humans ones was. All what that human reaper would know would be same what every reaper would know.

I'd rather our species pass on its legacy to a descendant instead of going extinct completely. Swallow your pride.

This isn't about pride. This is about why TIM is attacking Shepard in ME3, when Shepard is gonna fight agaist reapers.

TIM has fight hole his life to make sure humans survive and now he just give up. That is what doens't make sense.

So, it's better start think why in ME3 TIM is attacking Shepard, if he did not surrender to reapers, what's the other options. Because we also know allready he did not fight agaist them or trying to hide from them. So, what other explanation would actually make sense?

[Sheppard-Commander]

    A. “The Survivalist” — TIM’s has prepared a cryogenic facility on a very remote planet, much like Ilos. After the Reapers leave, humans will emerge with their technology up-to-date and dominate the galaxy more completely than otherwise possible. Of course, it will take years of quiet rebuilding before they’re ready to hunt down and kill the “lone sentry” like Sovereign that the Reapers leave behind.
 

A few things to think about...

Given that this is (to our knowledge) the first time that the Reapers genocide has gone anything but smoothly (protheans disrupting citadel signal, subsiquent destruction of reaper "vanguard" and collector plot foiled) its entirely possible that the Reapers, should they succeed will lay more failsafes in place for the next purge.

Also, repopulating an entire species would probably take tens of thousands of humans to be relocated to an off the grid planet not to mention the need to gather an arc of technology, schematics, information etc.

While I dont doubt Cerberus' ability to secure a planet as such, it seems likely that doing so would be very difficult and likely require opening of closed mass relays as every other planet is probably already in the Citadel census data and/or records. It does make you think though...since Humanity was a relative late-comer to the galactic scene, if Sovereign had succeeded with the initial attempt to open the Citadel relay would humanity have been spared this purge? Humans where totally isolated and unknown to the Citadel races.


edit: To note, I personally love plot twists like this. TIM is always trying to be a step ahead, and indoctrination seems like a sloppy fate for Cerberus even given their fetish for getting too close to Reaper technology.

Modifié par Sheppard-Commander, 29 juin 2011 - 09:30 .

[Lumikki]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

This isn't about pride.

Yes it is. You won't consider surrender to the Reapers because you find it icky and demeaning to the human cause.

Just because I don't see you teory as the most logical option, then it has to be my pride? This isn't about me or you. It's about TIM's behavior model and most logical cause of action. Try to read other options what others have presented as well, maybe you could consider some of them more logical?

[Malanek]

Link to my theory in party banter thread

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/5485001/56#7577779


[scene: The Illusive Man receives an incoming transmission]

Harbinger: Greetings human, I sense our legacy within you.

Illusive Man: Spare me your conjecture. You sense nothing, you speculate based on a mix of spurious logic and fear. [puff] Now what did you want, Reaper.

Harbinger: Your species intrigues us but your defeat is inevitable.

Illusive Man: [puff] We seem to have had a string of victories so far. Perhaps I will send Shepard to destroy you next. [puff]

Harbinger: That is why you intrigue us, in billions of your earth years no species has previously been able to stand against us. But even your victories are ultimately failuers. You sort to stop our return, yet here we are. You sort to coerce and manipulate the lesser species to unite against us, yet the galaxy is divided. Earth is ours and shortly a human Reaper will be born.

Illusive Man: Earth is symbolic not strategic. [slurp] You have achieved little other than losing the elements of surprise and awe. Those other species you believe divided are now flocking to humanities banner and we have proven you can be destroyed.

Harbinger: We have lost but a handful.

Illusive Man: And you will lose many more. Is each one fifty thousand years of evolution? Now gone for all time. I am not that impressed. With all those years of technological advancement you are somewhat lacking from where you should be. If humanity had been granted merely another thousand years, we would have crushed you like we would a bug.

Harbinger: Interesting because further evolution is what we come to offer you.

Illusive Man : And why would you do that if victory is as inevitable as you boast?

Harbinger: As I said you intrigue us and we are very interested in seeing what you become.

Illusive Man : [puff] Then leave, return to dark space.

Harbinger: That will not be happening. We need to cleanse the galaxy, replenish our resources and reset the cycle. A human reaper will still be spawned yet your species can be spared. You are to lead them.

Illusive Man : What exactly are you proposing?

Harbinger: You will relocate a million of your species to a remote cluster containing multiple garden worlds, plentiful in raw resources. You can take whatever technology and industry you desire. But you will leave the rest of the galaxy to its fate.

Illusive Man: [puff] Why would you expect me to trust you?

Harbinger: There is no duplicity. The cluster we have in mind is extremely remote, far beyond anything you are aware of. After you are through, you can destroy the relay connecting it to the rest of the galaxy. Even travelling at our fastest speed we could not reach you for hundreds of years. Your astro charts will confirm that. There is no way we could renege on our deal even if we wanted to.

Illusive Man: Interesting, I will consider your offer.

Harbinger: There is one more condition... first you must surrender Commander Shepard to us, dead or alive.

Modifié par Malanek999, 29 juin 2011 - 10:26 .

[Darth Death]

Cerberus being indoctrinated & working for the reapers should not be up for debate anymore. It's already been confirmed that they are, so lets move on to figure out the reasons why. Too many people here can't stomach the fact that there dear illusive man has gone & betrayed them. The result is those individuals attacking the story out of spite.

Modifié par Darth Death, 29 juin 2011 - 10:45 .

[Lumikki]

Darth Death wrote...

Cerberus being indoctrinated & working for the reapers should not be up for debate anymore.

Someone is denying this?

Too many people here can't stomach the fact that there dear illusive man has gone & betrayed them.

Eh? Sure, but why and how is still question. Meaning how did this happen.

Modifié par Lumikki, 29 juin 2011 - 11:14 .

[Malanek]

Darth Death wrote...

Cerberus being indoctrinated & working for the reapers should not be up for debate anymore. It's already been confirmed that they are, so lets move on to figure out the reasons why. Too many people here can't stomach the fact that there dear illusive man has gone & betrayed them. The result is those individuals attacking the story out of spite.

What are you saying here? I know it has been confirmed that they are working against Shepard but do you have a source saying "they" are indoctrinated? And by "they" do you mean the illusive man, multiple top level operatives, or every single person in the organisation. If it is a case of indoctrination it isn't a betrayal because "they" have no free will. And what do you mean by "why"? Are you questioning how they were indoctrinated or why the Reapers would want to indoctrinate them? For the latter, there doesn't seem to be a need for much discussion about that, it would simply be a good strategic move. 

[Ace of Dawn]

Malanek999 wrote...
What are you saying here? I know it has been confirmed that they are working against Shepard but do you have a source saying "they" are indoctrinated? And by "they" do you mean the illusive man, multiple top level operatives, or every single person in the organisation. If it is a case of indoctrination it isn't a betrayal because "they" have no free will. And what do you mean by "why"? Are you questioning how they were indoctrinated or why the Reapers would want to indoctrinate them? For the latter, there doesn't seem to be a need for much discussion about that, it would simply be a good strategic move. 

Shepard says they are indoctrinated in a gameplay trailer, as well as several of the people working in BW saying that part of the game is figuring out why and how Cerberus has been indoctrinated.

And that is more or less the point of the entire topic. We understand the effects of indoctrination, but how exactly did Cerberus get indoctrinated to begin with on any sort of level (either troop level or The Illusive Man entirely). And on top of that, they clearly show decent capacity to act on their own, meaning the indoctrination isn't deeply rooted, meaning they should be decently aware they are working against their goals.

Unless, of course, claiming indoctrination is all a ruse and a plan on Cerberus's part to achieve a greater end.

[Thompson family]

Malanek999 wrote...

Link to my theory in party banter thread

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/5485001/56#7577779

I'll add that to the list, Malanek999, but it will be later tonight.

[The Spamming Troll]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

I'm actually a huge fan of 3A. I think it's entirely likely that TIM wants the Reapers to kill everyone off so that humantiy can dominate the galaxy. Of course, the Reapers will come back in another 50,000 years, but still, that's a very long time. Long enough to create our own Reaper-fighting technology? Maybe. Especially if humantiy focused on it for 50,000 years!

why would the reapers care what TIM thinks?

i see things like this for to often on here. you need to understadn that the reapers whipe out ALL of the space faring civilizations in the entire galaxy? your completely underestimating a creature thats sole existance is to do that very thing. or maybe you can rememinb of that last good buddy the reapers befriended??????

[Malanek]

Ace of Dawn wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...
What are you saying here? I know it has been confirmed that they are working against Shepard but do you have a source saying "they" are indoctrinated? And by "they" do you mean the illusive man, multiple top level operatives, or every single person in the organisation. If it is a case of indoctrination it isn't a betrayal because "they" have no free will. And what do you mean by "why"? Are you questioning how they were indoctrinated or why the Reapers would want to indoctrinate them? For the latter, there doesn't seem to be a need for much discussion about that, it would simply be a good strategic move. 

Shepard says they are indoctrinated in a gameplay trailer, as well as several of the people working in BW saying that part of the game is figuring out why and how Cerberus has been indoctrinated.

I don't suppose you have a link to the particular trailor or a link to the quotes from the devs? Until I actually see them I am still a bit sceptical. Although it might sound pedantic, getting the exact wording and context is very important in this discussion.

If it is indoctrination, why is obvious. The reapers will indoctrinate whoever they can for strategical reasons. As for how that isn't really important (and it was probably when TIM was exposed to it years ago) because whats done is done, unless it leads to some clue about how to break indoctrination or use it against them in some way.

[Dean_the_Young]

Unless Shepard is completely wrong (red herring conclusion, perhaps), it's true. There are indoctrinated Cerberus troopers. I'm looking for the E3 video: it's after one of the first Cerberus encounters.

One thing I'd point out is that how much of Cerberus is indoctrinated is a very relevant point, as well as the nature and context as to why. Is only some expendible troops indoctrinated? Did Cerberus get indoctrinated focusing on something important? How high or how wide does it go? Etc etc etc.