414 réponses à ce sujet

[BurstAngel75]

I just wanted to know if I'm the only one who WILL NOT touch blood magic? "Being evil is fun" is the biggest excuse people use, but I can never bring myself to play an evil character. Tried if for a few hours but all I wanted to do was stabbed the so call "hero" in the back. Not very satisfying.
People talk about blood magic as if it is nothing more that a tool to be used as long as your careful. But we are talking about life, Blood represent/is LIFE, to think that blood magic is a tool ends up using Life as a tool, whether it is your own or someone elses. Which leads to objectifying people as nothing more than a tool to use. (ie slavery)
I think the writers are very subversive with this game, seducing us into thinking that blood magic is okay (Merill) while showing examples of just how inheritly evil it truly is. People in other discussions stated that the grey warden's ritual and other examples show that blood magic can be used for good, but those are examples of "acts of desperation", not "Good". After all, from what I can tell from Ferldan's history, blood magic was the root cause of the corruption of the ancient gods, the creation of the darkspawn and the plight of the mages. I have yet to play Awakening so I don't know what answers it has provided.
So I tend to cringe at the idea of using blood magic, after all using it means that life has no value and a mage can do what ever they please.

As much as I love and adore Merri, she is the only one I ended up as a rival.

[themonty72]

The thing Im not completely assure about is every mage that uses blood magic is evil?Ethereal writter any thoughts on this subject?

Modifié par themonty72, 09 juin 2011 - 10:59 .

[Sidney]

You use it because it has some very useful spells and if you are inclined to be a "ends justofy the means" type character you might go that way.

I don't like it since I can't be all blood magic and I wind up having to split my points between pumping health and pumping up mana. Especially after 1.03 you can't mitigate the health costs as much with items.

[TEWR]

damn monty how'd you know I'd be drawn here?


Alright give me a moment to dig up my rant on how it's not inherently evil.

[TEWR]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Welp, I feel the need to rant about blood magic, only because it's 4 a.m where I am and I can't sleep. So, you know, I need something to pass the time by.

Blood Magic is not inherently evil. It has power yes, but so does a sword, a crossbow, a ballista, a gun, etc. It is only a tool. Tools are deemed good or evil by the methods in which they are utilized. The saying "Guns don't kill people. People kill people" can apply here if changed slightly:

Blood Magic doesn't kill people. Evil and heartless mages kill people.

The Chantry forbids it (imo and Avernus', foolishly so) because of the Tevinter Imperium's past history. Not only that, they claim to know what Andraste meant by her words "Magic must serve man, not rule over him". The problem with this phrase is that there is more than one meaning to it, and only Andraste knew what she meant. There are three meanings that spring to mind:

• The Andrastian belief that mages are dangerous and should be corralled like animals.
• Magic should be used to help the people (the Tevinter way of it) 
• Magic should not influence the mind of a mage. With great power comes great responsibility. This, I feel, is what Andraste truly meant, along with the Tevinter interpretation.

 
Now, there are different types of Blood Magic. There's the powerful, mind controlling kind we all know and talk about. But there are less well known ways of utilizing blood magic.

The first that springs to mind is the Joining ritual. Consuming Darkspawn blood mixed magically with lyrium and Archdemon blood is Blood Magic. Now people will try to dispute this fact saying "Blood + Magic =/= Blood Magic."

However, they are wrong. The Reaver specialization's Codex says that by consuming Dragon's blood and gaining abilities, it is a definite form of Blood Magic. Blood Magic isn't about only using your blood for power. It's also about gaining power from blood. The same rules that apply to the Reaver spec. apply to the Grey Warden Joining ritual. We also know that the Grey Wardens employ blood magic because it helps to kill the Darkspawn quicker. And with proper ethical research, great strides can and have been made into researching more effective ways of understanding the Darkspawn (see the Avernus quest in DA2 if you let not only Avernus live while continuing ethical research, but spared the Architect)

Secondly, there is the Scrying from Witch Hunt. When Finn asks for Ariane's blood, you can call him out on if it's Blood Magic or not. He says it is. By using her blood, they gain the ability to find the Lights of Arlathan.

Third, we have phylacteries. Possibly one of the biggest, if not the biggest, hypocrisies the Chantry is made of. Templars take the blood of a mage and seal it in a vial. Should that mage escape, they use the phylactery to track him/her down. They gain the ability to find the mage in a population of enormous sizes. This is Blood Magic, which the Chantry condones as long as they are using it. Or perhaps they refuse to admit that they are wrong and it is blood magic.

Now, let's examine how to learn Blood Magic. Anders says in Dragon Age 2 to Merrill, and I'm paraphrasing here:
 

• "Tell me you just cut your wrist on accident and discovered blood magic."

which implies that any mage can stumble across the power of blood magic, but without proper training it is useless. He also states in a banter with Fenris (again, paraphrasing): 

• "You have to look a demon in the eye to learn blood magic"

which seems to me to mean that demons can teach a mage how to properly use blood magic. Again, any mage can stumble across its' powers, but without training it is useless.

Mages can also learn Blood Magic from a book, thus eliminating/mitigating the risk of consorting with a demon or cutting your wrists too deeply. Jowan is a case in point, as he learned Blood Magic from a book. He tells you he only skimmed a little bit of a book and dabbled. The irony in this situation is that the Chantry forbids Blood Magic learning, yet the Circle of Ferelden kept books on the subject, which Irving confiscated later on. Whether they were known to be there is a mystery, but if they were the Chantry is operating on some faulty logic. A line I came up with and used a lot regarding this scenario is as follows:


You can teach a man that bombs are dangerous without giving him a blueprint of how to make said bomb.


Next, let's examine a comprehensive list (to the best of my knowledge) of known blood mages and determine whether they fall into the good, evil, or neutral category.

• Uldred- Bat**** insane Blood Mage who almost destroyed the Circle, and in turn was possessed (or merged willingly?) with a Pride demon. EVIL.
  
  
• Jowan - A kind and good, albeit bumbling, mage who didn't want his emotions torn away from him. He was in love with Lily, and because he dabbled in blood magic he would've been made Tranquil? I can understand what he did. A lot of people blame the whole Arl of Redcliffe quest on him, but I don't see that as the case. I don't remember whether I claimed he was innocent or guilty in another thread that talked about blood mages, but I feel if you're going to blame Jowan, so too must you blame Isolde and Loghain. However, one could argue that Connor's deal with the demon was the only thing that kept Eamon alive. If he had died, the Wardens would've been royally screwed (I seem to recall a dev saying Loghain wasn't planning on killing Eamon, just removing him from the Landsmeet temporarily)
  
  
• Anders - Good. You have the option of making him a Blood Mage in Awakening, and your Warden can even address this fact in Amaranthine. This inevitably makes him a Blood Mage, as the storyline then considers it canon. However, Anders in DA2 views BM as bad, no doubt due to his Andrastian beliefs. So one can assume that sometime between Awakening and DA2, if you made him a BM, he ceased practicing the arcane art.
  
  
• Merrill - Possibly one of the smartest mages out there. She is able to recognize that all Fade spirits are dangerous and there is no separation of them. She practices her BM safely, and only uses her blood. That is in itself the mark of a good BM. She even knows how to protect herself in the Fade against spirits, saying that the only thing you can believe is yourself. The only time she betrays you is in Feynriel's quest in his mind, and that's only because the demon forced her to betray you much like the Sloth demon's minions in Broken Circle did to some of your companions by giving them a false reality. She even addresses this afterwards. GOOD.
  
  
• Quentin - Evil and bat**** insane. I don't need to give anymore details on it. We know the deal. He went insane after his wife died. I kinda feel sympathy for him, but not really.
  
  
• Gascard - sort of a grey area himself. He helps Hawke, but only so he can kill Quentin and learn necromancy (which wasn't that available in the Spirit school?). If you convince him that what he's doing is a bad move, he relents on Blood Magic and vows to live a better life, assuming you let him live. Not many blood mages get a second chance, so I'll place him in the neutral area.
  
  
• Alain - Good. He didn't really use it for anything other than freeing the hostage.
  
  
• Decimus - bat**** insane. Had a nice wavy hair thing going in the scene where you meet him though. Evil
  
  
• Grace - sane at first. Then goes bat**** insane. Or was possessed prior to that event, since you fight an Abomination of her. So evil
  
  
• Orsino - Good, albeit misguided.  Orsino had been fighting Meredith since Year 1 of Hawke's tenure within Kirkwall (Varric says "That's also when the trouble began with the mages"). And in Act 3, Meredith squeezes harder and harder, and forces more mages to undergo the Rite of Tranquility. Mages that have passed their Harrowing. She is growing increasingly paranoid and insane, and Orsino fights back within his power. After Anders plays Jenga with the Chantry, the Mage-Templar conflict now spirals into a full-blown war. Meredith called the Right of Annulment not because Elthina was killed, but because she could. She had wanted to call it for a long time, and she realized then that she could. So she did.

 
To separate this for easier reading: Now I don't see Orsino's use of Blood Magic at the end as only stupid. Rather, I see it as the act of a desperate man who is taking on an army with only a few handfuls of mages, most of whom utilize magic that the Templars are able to nullify. Was it stupid? Undoubtably. Was it understandable? Completely. The problem with that fight with the Templars beforehand was that it was too easy, so that gave us the illusion that Orsino was acting irrationally without reason. So I can't fault Orsino for thinking he only had one option left, even though that scenario could've been handled much better
 Now finally, we must examine the origins of Blood Magic. We have conflicting sources on the matter. We have:
 
 

• Blood Magic came from the Old Gods.
  
  
• Blood Magic was taught to mages by demons.
  
  
• Blood Magic was first used by the elves of Arlathan and then the Tevinter Imperium took that knowledge for themselves.

We don't know which, if any, is the true scenario. For all we know some mage picked up a book entitled Blood Magic and You: A Beginner's Guide On How to Properly Slit Your Wrists[/list]So, in closing to this long rant that took me 45 minutes to type out and think on, blood magic is not inherently evil. It can be used for evil purposes, but that does not make it evil. If it did, then using a gun should be considered evil and banned forever. It's a tool. Nothing more.
anything you want me to elaborate on people, feel free to ask and I shall try my best.

 

There's also the fact that Merrill used it to cleanse the tainted shard of the Eluvian and Avernus managed to use it to stall the taint from fully progressing. That proves that it is possibly connected to the Taint but can be used for beneficial purposes to combat the Taint.

I've also stated before that I think it could be used medicinally. If your artery was cut and you were gushing out blood, blood magic could help keep you alive as it is able to control the flow of blood. Meaning the blood mage could keep your blood in your body until a Spirit Healer came by.

I've seen people argue that blood is sacred and shouldn't be used for anything where it's outside of the body. But what about transfusions? We draw blood routinely in our society for medical purposes. If blood is so sacred, then why do we do this? Because blood can serve a purpose for the greater good. 


EDIT: tried to separate for easier reading. Copy and Paste seems to bunch it all together.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 juin 2011 - 11:21 .

[Wulfram]

I don't think Blood magic is necessarily evil, particularly if you're using your own blood.

I also don't think it's a sensible thing to use, simply because everyone will hate you for it.

[BurstAngel75]

I think your missing the point I'm trying to make.
Blood is Life
To use blood is to use Life
Life is a gift to be cherished not to be subjugated for Power.
Therefore blood magic is inheritly evil.
Donating blood is sharing blood to perpetuate someone elses life. It is freely given, not taken by force or violence (and blood magic is violent, I mean you got to stab somebody for it to work). Donating blood is an act of love for your fellow man, Blood magic is about power over life itself.

[TEWR]

you're still using blood. Doesn't matter how it's taken, you're still using it.


Blood magic can be used medicinally. As I said, it controls the flow of blood and thus could keep a man from bleeding to death.

If you use your own blood, I don't see the harm in it as long as your reasons for using blood magic are well-intentioned (Merrill). So you have to cut yourself to access it. This is a midaeval type world. They haven't discovered syringes and other medical equipment that we have today.

Amputation was much more gruesome many centuries ago. Doesn't mean it didn't serve its purposes to better the lives of people.

Think about it. If they cut themselves and bled into a vial and found a way to keep it cool (mage talents like Winter's Grasp), then you basically have a Thedas version of a blood bank where people could take blood without killing someone.

[TEWR]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

BurstAngel75 wrote...

I think your missing the point I'm trying to make.
Blood is Life
To use blood is to use Life
Life is a gift to be cherished not to be subjugated for Power.
Therefore blood magic is inheritly evil.
Donating blood is sharing blood to perpetuate someone elses life. It is freely given, not taken by force or violence (and blood magic is violent, I mean you got to stab somebody for it to work). Donating blood is an act of love for your fellow man, Blood magic is about power over life itself.

If that's the way you see it, there no way an argument can be made, is there?

My canon Warden is a blood mage. She is ruthless, but in no way evil. She does whatever it takes to be the best weapon she can be against the Darkspawn, even spilling herself in an effort to protect people from them. Indeed, she thinks she would be a poor Grey Warden if she didn't. And she's right.

I just can't see it as being inherently evil.

Especially since the Joining is blood magic. If blood magic were truly evil, then Grey Wardens shouldn't exist and your Warden wouldn't be able to protect Ferelden from the Blight.

[BurstAngel75]

The joining is an act of desperation not an inheritly "good" act in and of itself. It's like the devil coming to while your dying and making an offer you can't refuse. You can feel evil (the darkspawn) when its close because evil (the joining) was done to you to make you similar. You can still be a good person, but the act is in and of itself evil and you'll always be haunted by it. I wonder if there are any stories of Grey Wardens slowing losing themselves and becoming darkspawns. They'd have to have will of iron to be wardens.

[dragonflight288]

And if no Wardens exist, then all life on Thedas would be destroyed.

[River5]

I thought that Anders' sudden aversion to blood magic in DA2 came from Justice, actually. Since they say that, to perform blood magic, you have to make deals with demons (something that I don't remember was explained in DAO... I only thought that blood magic was frowned upon because it allowed you to control someone else's mind and/or body, and stripped that person of his or her free will back then); and Justice seems to have developed a high level of animosity towards demons; it made sense that Anders would become strongly opposed to it as well.

[dragonflight288]

The origins of blood magic is debated, as Etheral Writer mentioned above while quoting himself. You have it being taught to the Tevinters by the old gods, being taught to mages through deals with demons, or the elves of Arlathan perfecting the art and it gets passed on by the Imperium, and since both empires had mages, the demons could have learned it from them.

The three options are debatable, but the chantry is hypocritical when it comes to blood magic and the phylacteries.

[MadDogMurphy]

BurstAngel75 wrote...

I think your missing the point I'm trying to make.
Blood is Life
To use blood is to use Life
Life is a gift to be cherished not to be subjugated for Power.
Therefore blood magic is inheritly evil.
Donating blood is sharing blood to perpetuate someone elses life. It is freely given, not taken by force or violence (and blood magic is violent, I mean you got to stab somebody for it to work). Donating blood is an act of love for your fellow man, Blood magic is about power over life itself.

I think this is a stretch (and your original comment about slavery).   And no matter how this in going to be argued.....it's hazy at best.

1.  There are quite a few things that are "life" using your example.  Air, food, water to name a few. 

2.  Let's not forget that while playing this game......you will actually be taking life in the form of bandits etc.  I would classify this as taking blood by force and violence, wouldn't you?  And to make matters worse....it's not even your blood...it's someone else's.  By your argument.....no matter how you play....you are evil. 

[lobi]

Blood magic is natural. Lyrium is an addictive substance that has to be mined and processed.
Bioware has retconed Blood magic to be evil because they are closet christians with an agenda and financial connections to drug cartels and the illuminatti, mainly guided by the gay mafia branch of scientology.

[BurstAngel75]

wastelander75 wrote...

BurstAngel75 wrote...

The joining is an act of desperation not an inheritly "good" act in and of itself. It's like the devil coming to while your dying and making an offer you can't refuse. You can feel evil (the darkspawn) when its close because evil (the joining) was done to you to make you similar. You can still be a good person, but the act is in and of itself evil and you'll always be haunted by it. I wonder if there are any stories of Grey Wardens slowing losing themselves and becoming darkspawns. They'd have to have will of iron to be wardens.

Which is why at a certain age (generally 30 years after their joining) they venture into the deep roads to die. From what I gather, their bodies can no longer handle the Taint, and they slowly become Wraiths (I believe).

As far as Blood Magic in and of itself, I view it as a form of voodoo practices. There's the beneficial forms of voodoo (spiritual protections, rites of fortune and fertility, etc), and then there's the dark side of the practice (consorting with demons, creating curses, hexes, etc). It's all how the individual uses it in the end that defines them as a practitioner of the art.

At least that's how I see it.

Well, it certainly is a way to see blood magic.

I'm not asking about grey wardens since there is no real chioce in the matter. What I'm asking is why use blood magic knowing that it is wrong. A mage has a choice, grey wardens do not.

[Maria Caliban]

BurstAngel75 wrote...

I just wanted to know if I'm the only one who WILL NOT touch blood magic?

I won't touch blood magic because it doesn't exist.

My mage Hawke never used it because she wanted to show that not all mages did. My warrior Hawke was a reaver, so she did use blood magic. She didn't really care.

[TEWR]

BurstAngel75 wrote...

wastelander75 wrote...

BurstAngel75 wrote...

The joining is an act of desperation not an inheritly "good" act in and of itself. It's like the devil coming to while your dying and making an offer you can't refuse. You can feel evil (the darkspawn) when its close because evil (the joining) was done to you to make you similar. You can still be a good person, but the act is in and of itself evil and you'll always be haunted by it. I wonder if there are any stories of Grey Wardens slowing losing themselves and becoming darkspawns. They'd have to have will of iron to be wardens.

Which is why at a certain age (generally 30 years after their joining) they venture into the deep roads to die. From what I gather, their bodies can no longer handle the Taint, and they slowly become Wraiths (I believe).

As far as Blood Magic in and of itself, I view it as a form of voodoo practices. There's the beneficial forms of voodoo (spiritual protections, rites of fortune and fertility, etc), and then there's the dark side of the practice (consorting with demons, creating curses, hexes, etc). It's all how the individual uses it in the end that defines them as a practitioner of the art.

At least that's how I see it.

Well, it certainly is a way to see blood magic.

I'm not asking about grey wardens since there is no real chioce in the matter. What I'm asking is why use blood magic knowing that it is wrong. A mage has a choice, grey wardens do not.

Why are you asking us if no matter what we tell you you'll cling to the notion that it is inherently evil? What's the point?

[Serpieri Nei]

http://dragonage.wik...iki/Blood_magic

Blood magic was the first form of magic in Thedas. According to legend, it was taught to Archon Thalsian, founder of theTevinter Imperium, by Dumat, the Old God of Silence. 


While not inherently evil, the Chantry strictly forbids the usage of blood magic as it supposedly eventually leads to corruption. Mages using blood magic are labeled maleficars and hunted by the The Templar Order, which was created for the purpose of controlling mages, killing demons and, more specifically, for hunting down maleficars and apostates.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 10 juin 2011 - 12:27 .

[lobi]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

http://dragonage.wik...iki/Blood_magic


While not inherently evil, the Chantry strictly forbids the usage of blood magic as it supposedly eventually leads to corruption. Mages using blood magic are labeled maleficars and hunted by the The Templar Order, which was created for the purpose of controlling mages, killing demons and, more specifically, for hunting down maleficars and apostates.

Dont quote lore in a potentially rabid FanFic thread! 

[Serpieri Nei]

lobi wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

http://dragonage.wik...iki/Blood_magic


While not inherently evil, the Chantry strictly forbids the usage of blood magic as it supposedly eventually leads to corruption. Mages using blood magic are labeled maleficars and hunted by the The Templar Order, which was created for the purpose of controlling mages, killing demons and, more specifically, for hunting down maleficars and apostates.

Dont quote lore in a potentially rabid FanFic thread! 

My Elven Champion stands ready