414 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

But is it true that he feared he won't make it through the harrowing? All I know of is that he envied not being as "good" (for lack of a better word) than the Warden.

I don't recall hearing anything from Jowan at all about being afraid of his Harrowing.  If anything, he was eager for it, to become a full-fledged mage and not just an apprentice.  I don't think he was afraid of it at all...just afraid of the alternatives, since if you don't undergo the Harrowing, you either get killed or made Tranquil.

[Wolfborn Son]

If I was a magi in Thedas, I wouldn't use blood magic. In fact, I'd tip off the Templar to any blood mage I discovered if I didn't handle it myself. Even if I was an apostate. Magic is dangerous in general, blood magic doubly so. Yes, exceptional individuals can stand strong and not become corrupted by the power they use. However, most people aren't exceptional.

My two copper, anyway.

[The Baconer]

Wolfborn Son wrote...

If I was a magi in Thedas, I wouldn't use blood magic. In fact, I'd tip off the Templar to any blood mage I discovered if I didn't handle it myself. Even if I was an apostate.

My two copper, anyway.

What if you were a magi in TURVURNTER?

[sphinxess]

Wolfborn Son wrote...

If I was a magi in Thedas, I wouldn't use blood magic. In fact, I'd tip off the Templar to any blood mage I discovered if I didn't handle it myself. Even if I was an apostate. Magic is dangerous in general, blood magic doubly so. Yes, exceptional individuals can stand strong and not become corrupted by the power they use. However, most people aren't exceptional.

My two copper, anyway.

Im sure the chantry would be very happy to hear that too- since its the only form of magic the Templar smite doesnt work against

[LobselVith8]

Wolfborn Son wrote...

If I was a magi in Thedas, I wouldn't use blood magic. In fact, I'd tip off the Templar to any blood mage I discovered if I didn't handle it myself. Even if I was an apostate.

Why? You'd be risking your freedom and your life, and you could be potentially turning in a Grey Warden mage who uses blood magic to give them an edge against the darkspawn.

Wolfborn Son wrote...

Magic is dangerous in general, blood magic doubly so. Yes, exceptional individuals can stand strong and not become corrupted by the power they use. However, most people aren't exceptional. 

And some mages turn to blood magic as a means of survival because they don't want to live in a dictatorship anymore, and the templars who hunt them down can nullify ordinary magic.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Jowan was a mage too weak to complete (or even be considered for) the Harrowing.

Another opinion of yours that you put forward as evidence, I see. There's no factual basis to claim that Jowan was too weak to complete the Harrowing.

You mean other than the fact that he wasn't called for his Harrowing for several years, and was actually an apprentice for longer than the Warden? This usually only happens if the First Enchanter considers the apprentice in question too weak to complete the Harrowing. So there are plenty of basis to base that on.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He turned to blood magic to grant him enough power.

Jowan says he learned blood magic to make him a better mage, and we have no evidence to contradict his claim. He's certainly capable of using his abilities to protect refugees as Master Levyn.

What does that have to do with why he turned to blood magic in the first place? Try to stay on topic, instead of ALWAYS spewing out some random irrelevant fact when you got no counter point?

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Merrill didn't have the power to cleanse the Eluvian on her own. She turned to blood magic to give her the neccesary power.

Merrill lacked the necessary lyrium to cleanse the shard, you mean.

In other words: She lacked the neccesary power for herself, thus she turned to blood magic.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Every blood mage we encounter in the game, has turned to blood magic due to purely selfish needs, and not from some sense of altruism.

You should really try to stop claiming your opinions are facts, since Merrill alone is proof that a mage has turned to blood magic for altruistic reasons - although we know how much you detest the elves, so I won't bother getting into that discussion with you.

Merrill is one of the prime examples of a mage turning to blood magic because of her own selfish needs. If she had truly been altruistic as you claim, she would been able to listen to her mentor, and put her own desire to restore the Eluvian to rest.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And for a guy who claims to be ethical, or at least cry out loud at the mention of the Circles, you sure are quick to suggest unethical solutions. Mind control is perhaps the most unethical thing imaginable, even if it saves lifes.

I take it you think women should be raped instead of the rapist being stopped?

What the **** is wrong with you? That was not at all what I said. That is a despicable thing to try and twist my words into.
What i was actually saying is that I would enver mind control any man, no matter what crimes he had commited/where about to commit. I would rather actually physically prevent him, or just kill him and be done with it.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You mean other than the fact that he wasn't called for his Harrowing for several years, and was actually an apprentice for longer than the Warden? This usually only happens if the First Enchanter considers the apprentice in question too weak to complete the Harrowing. So there are plenty of basis to base that on.

Several years? More speculation on your part being put forward as fact, I see.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What does that have to do with why he turned to blood magic in the first place? Try to stay on topic, instead of ALWAYS spewing out some random irrelevant fact when you got no counter point?

It addresses that he can handle magic proficiently enough to survive against the darkspawn.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

In other words: She lacked the neccesary power for herself, thus she turned to blood magic.

In other words: Merrill didn't want to get killed by templars, so she turned to blood magic to cleanse a shard of the Eluvian instead of committing suicide by asking the templars for lyrium.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Merrill is one of the prime examples of a mage turning to blood magic because of her own selfish needs. If she had truly been altruistic as you claim, she would been able to listen to her mentor, and put her own desire to restore the Eluvian to rest.

I didn't realize it was selfish of Merrill to want to help the elves across the continent by being proactive instead of doing nothing.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What the **** is wrong with you? That was not at all what I said. That is a despicable thing to try and twist my words into.

I could ask you the same thing when you stated that it's unethical to stop a rapist with blood magic.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What i was actually saying is that I would enver mind control any man, no matter what crimes he had commited/where about to commit. I would rather actually physically prevent him, or just kill him and be done with it.

Vaughan has armed guards surrounding him, and there could be civilian casualities. Blood magic would stop Vaughan and prevent casualities from arising.

[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You mean other than the fact that he wasn't called for his Harrowing for several years, and was actually an apprentice for longer than the Warden? This usually only happens if the First Enchanter considers the apprentice in question too weak to complete the Harrowing. So there are plenty of basis to base that on. [/quote]

Several years? More speculation on your part being put forward as fact, I see.[/quote]
Go play the goddamn Mage origin again.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What does that have to do with why he turned to blood magic in the first place? Try to stay on topic, instead of ALWAYS spewing out some random irrelevant fact when you got no counter point? [/quote]

It addresses that he can handle magic proficiently enough to survive against the darkspawn.[/quote]
And he was a blood mage at that point. It is a useless fact, serving no purpose, but to make you appear as having said something useful.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

In other words: She lacked the neccesary power for herself, thus she turned to blood magic. [/quote]

In other words: Merrill didn't want to get killed by templars, so she turned to blood magic to cleanse a shard of the Eluvian instead of committing suicide by asking the templars for lyrium.[/quote]
She could have asked the dwarves. Last I checked they were the suppliers of lyrium. Better yet, she could have let it be.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Merrill is one of the prime examples of a mage turning to blood magic because of her own selfish needs. If she had truly been altruistic as you claim, she would been able to listen to her mentor, and put her own desire to restore the Eluvian to rest. [/quote]

I didn't realize it was selfish of Merrill to want to help the elves across the continent by being proactive instead of doing nothing.[/quote]
Her intentions were good, her desire for it, selfish. She should have heeded the words of her betters and left the Eluvian to be forgotten. It is incribibly arrogant, stupid and selfish of her to think that she knows better than her own teacher, in matters she has only learned about from her teacher.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What the **** is wrong with you? That was not at all what I said. That is a despicable thing to try and twist my words into. [/quote]

I could ask you the same thing when you stated that it's unethical to stop a rapist with blood magic.[/quote]
Mind control on any subject is unethical. No matter what. Two wrongs does not make a right. I couldn't care less about the rapist if you burned him, or tore the blood from his body, but his mind is his sanctum, to defile that is to turn yourself into a monster, which will need to be eradicated.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What i was actually saying is that I would enver mind control any man, no matter what crimes he had commited/where about to commit. I would rather actually physically prevent him, or just kill him and be done with it.[/quote]

Vaughan has armed guards surrounding him, and there could be civilian casualities. Blood magic would stop Vaughan and prevent casualities from arising.[/quote]
Then you would have to mind control an entire squad of guards and several nobles, then silence any witness that could tell on you (to either the government if illegal, or the nobles otherwise). I say it again, I will never let any one mind control anyone else if I can ever prevent it.
I doubt there would ever be many civilian casualties in a swordfight anyway...

[EmperorSahlertz]

*double post*

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 14 juin 2011 - 12:15 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Several years? More speculation on your part being put forward as fact, I see.[/quote]

Go play the goddamn Mage origin again. [/quote]

I have gone through the Magi Origin, and Jowan never says it's been several years.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

It addresses that he can handle magic proficiently enough to survive against the darkspawn.[/quote]

And he was a blood mage at that point. It is a useless fact, serving no purpose, but to make you appear as having said something useful. [/quote]

Addressing that Jowan can use magic proficiently enough to survive against the darkspawn is the point.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

In other words: Merrill didn't want to get killed by templars, so she turned to blood magic to cleanse a shard of the Eluvian instead of committing suicide by asking the templars for lyrium.[/quote]

She could have asked the dwarves. Last I checked they were the suppliers of lyrium. Better yet, she could have let it be. [/quote]

The same dwarves who allow the Chantry to have a monopoly on the lyrium trade? And you argue she should have done nothing to help end the plight of her people?

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I didn't realize it was selfish of Merrill to want to help the elves across the continent by being proactive instead of doing nothing.[/quote]

Her intentions were good, her desire for it, selfish. She should have heeded the words of her betters and left the Eluvian to be forgotten. It is incribibly arrogant, stupid and selfish of her to think that she knows better than her own teacher, in matters she has only learned about from her teacher. [/quote]

Her betters? It's more than a little odd to claim Merrill should have heeded the words of a person who endangered her entire clan by becoming an abomination and telling no one about it until long after the fact.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I could ask you the same thing when you stated that it's unethical to stop a rapist with blood magic.[/quote]

Mind control on any subject is unethical. No matter what. Two wrongs does not make a right. I couldn't care less about the rapist if you burned him, or tore the blood from his body, but his mind is his sanctum, to defile that is to turn yourself into a monster, which will need to be eradicated. [/quote]

Stopping rape is more important than ethical considerations.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Vaughan has armed guards surrounding him, and there could be civilian casualities. Blood magic would stop Vaughan and prevent casualities from arising.[/quote]

Then you would have to mind control an entire squad of guards and several nobles, then silence any witness that could tell on you (to either the government if illegal, or the nobles otherwise). I say it again, I will never let any one mind control anyone else if I can ever prevent it.
I doubt there would ever be many civilian casualties in a swordfight anyway...[/quote]

The only person who needs to be mind controlled is Vaughan, who is behind everything. The guards are in the Alienage and taking the women as hostages to be raped by the nobility under orders from Vaughan. We've seen from the Chantry zealots in Act II with the Qunari hostages how people can be killed, and people already have no value for the elves since elven women can be abducted in broad daylight with no one giving a damn.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 14 juin 2011 - 12:34 .

[TEWR]

She could have asked the dwarves. Last I checked they were the suppliers of lyrium.

Because the dwarves still have a mighty empire. Oh wait.... Well she was definitely near Orzammar. Oh wait....

Her intentions were good, her desire for it, selfish. She should have heeded the words of her betters and left the Eluvian to be forgotten. It is incribibly arrogant, stupid and selfish of her to think that she knows better than her own teacher, in matters she has only learned about from her teacher.

To use a point of yours against you and to change it up a bit

Go play the goddamn Dalish Origin again. Marethari said that while she was interested, she wanted nothing to do with it.

Merrill was the only person doing research on the damn thing.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Stopping rape is more important than ethical considerations.

Then why do you resort to the absolute worst solution? There are hudnred of different paths you can choose, but you want to choose the most unethical way of preventing it. That makes you just as big a menace as the rapist.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vaughan has armed guards surrounding him, and there could be civilian casualities. Blood magic would stop Vaughan and prevent casualities from arising.

Then you would have to mind control an entire squad of guards and several nobles, then silence any witness that could tell on you (to either the government if illegal, or the nobles otherwise). I say it again, I will never let any one mind control anyone else if I can ever prevent it.
I doubt there would ever be many civilian casualties in a swordfight anyway...

Ever? Tell that to the Qunari hostages in Act II.

They didn't die during the swordfight. They died prior to a swordfight, a swordfight which had no relation at all to their deaths even.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

She could have asked the dwarves. Last I checked they were the suppliers of lyrium.

Because the dwarves still have a mighty empire. Oh wait.... Well she was definitely near Orzammar. Oh wait....

If it was important enough, no trip should hold her back. She picked the shortest easiest path. Hell, she could even have involved herself with the lyrium smugglers in Kirkwall, but even that wa stoo difficult for her limited abilities.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Her intentions were good, her desire for it, selfish. She should have heeded the words of her betters and left the Eluvian to be forgotten. It is incribibly arrogant, stupid and selfish of her to think that she knows better than her own teacher, in matters she has only learned about from her teacher.

To use a point of yours against you and to change it up a bit

Go play the goddamn Dalish Origin again. Marethari said that while she was interested, she wanted nothing to do with it.

Merrill was the only person doing research on the damn thing.

And she didn't even know waht it did. She was effectively fumbling around blindly in the dark, but seh was still certain this piece of history, was somehow the key. She was a fool. Marethari was at least wise enough to let the past remain forgotten and try to build a new future for her people.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Stopping rape is more important than ethical considerations.

Then why do you resort to the absolute worst solution? There are hudnred of different paths you can choose, but you want to choose the most unethical way of preventing it. That makes you just as big a menace as the rapist.

Unlike you, I would have no intention of permitting a rape to happen simply because the means to put a stop to it is unethical. While you might think it's better to do nothing or get innocent people killed, I'd prefer if blood magic was used to control Vaughan and end his attempt to kidnap the women.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They didn't die during the swordfight. They died prior to a swordfight, a swordfight which had no relation at all to their deaths even.

The women are being kidnapped by the guards and the elves are considered less than people by humans, so their lives are indeed in danger if a fight breaks out between one single mage and a group of armed guards.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Because the dwarves still have a mighty empire. Oh wait.... Well she was definitely near Orzammar. Oh wait....

If it was important enough, no trip should hold her back. She picked the shortest easiest path. Hell, she could even have involved herself with the lyrium smugglers in Kirkwall, but even that wa stoo difficult for her limited abilities.

You're ignoring that the Chantry has a monopoly on the lyrium trade on the surface simply to villify Merrill.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

To use a point of yours against you and to change it up a bit

Go play the goddamn Dalish Origin again. Marethari said that while she was interested, she wanted nothing to do with it.

Merrill was the only person doing research on the damn thing.

And she didn't even know waht it did. She was effectively fumbling around blindly in the dark, but seh was still certain this piece of history, was somehow the key. She was a fool. Marethari was at least wise enough to let the past remain forgotten and try to build a new future for her people.

You're incorrect. Gaider stated that Merrill used lore and extrapolated information from the shard. Merrill was the most informed about the Eluvian when Marethari never bothered to do any research about it.

[TEWR]

If it was important enough, no trip should hold her back. She picked the shortest easiest path. Hell, she could even have involved herself with the lyrium smugglers in Kirkwall, but even that wa stoo difficult for her limited abilities.

A lone elf wandering the countryside is easy prey. --- Merrill


Magic only helps with so much. Her clan wouldn't make the trip back to Ferelden, where a Blight was occuring, because they were fleeing from the Blight.

To say she should've gone back by herself is foolish. She chose blood magic because that was the only option left.

And she didn't even know waht it did. She was effectively fumbling around blindly in the dark, but seh was still certain this piece of history, was somehow the key. She was a fool. Marethari was at least wise enough to let the past remain forgotten and try to build a new future for her people.

Did you miss the part where she tells Varric and Hawke that it was used for communication between elven cities? That's all the Tevinters were able to get from it by casting blood magic on them.


If she had gotten it to work (which personally I believe she will if you support her, but that's neither here nor there), then it benefits every clan because she can make new ones and give them to each clan. They then have, at the very least, a way of keeping in touch easily and don't have to rely on the meetings every 10 years.

Imagine if a clan lost their halla but they used an Eluvian to seek help! Wait..... losing halla sounds familiar....

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 juin 2011 - 12:46 .

[ObserverStatus]

I think that the best explanation was in a conversation between two NPC's in the tower.
Mage 1: Why would someone use blood magic?
Mage 2: Because it's totally OP
You can say what you like about it being a dirty practice, but if you use it to slaughter hordes of darkspawn and save ferelden, I don't see the problem. Every great hero needs an "I win button".

[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Stopping rape is more important than ethical considerations.[/quote]

Then why do you resort to the absolute worst solution? There are hudnred of different paths you can choose, but you want to choose the most unethical way of preventing it. That makes you just as big a menace as the rapist. [/quote]

Unlike you, I would have no intention of permitting a rape to happen simply because the means to put a stop to it is unethical. While you might think it's better to do nothing or get innocent people killed, I'd prefer if blood magic was used to control Vaughan and end his attempt to kidnap the women.[/quote]
Unlike you, I am no coward, hiding behind magic. I would stop a rape. But I would at elast be man (human) enough to stop it with my fists. You on the other hand chooses the wrong option to stop a wrongful action. You are the one who would rather just mind control a man to stop, and let him go about his business. That way he learns nothing, and will probably try again another day, on another hapless victim. All thanks to your mind control.
Unless of course you seek to teach him a lesson after ou stop him, at which point he won't udnerstand the reason because he wasn't aware of what he was doing, so he won't learn his lessons either this way. Simply put, mind control is the absolutely worst option you could possibly pick, and it would never even be the only option, just the worst.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They didn't die during the swordfight. They died prior to a swordfight, a swordfight which had no relation at all to their deaths even. [/quote]

The women are being kidnapped by the guards and the elves are considered less than people by humans, so their lives are indeed in danger if a fight breaks out between one single mage and a group of armed guards.[/quote]
Nor were the women being raped in public.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Because the dwarves still have a mighty empire. Oh wait.... Well she was definitely near Orzammar. Oh wait....[/quote]

If it was important enough, no trip should hold her back. She picked the shortest easiest path. Hell, she could even have involved herself with the lyrium smugglers in Kirkwall, but even that wa stoo difficult for her limited abilities. [/quote]

You're ignoring that the Chantry has a monopoly on the lyrium trade on the surface simply to villify Merrill.[/quote]
Am I? Then why did I mention the lyrium smugglers? I sincerely doubt that they are part, or even cares, about the Chantry's monopoly.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

To use a point of yours against you and to change it up a bit

Go play the goddamn Dalish Origin again. Marethari said that while she was interested, she wanted nothing to do with it.

Merrill was the only person doing research on the damn thing.[/quote]

And she didn't even know waht it did. She was effectively fumbling around blindly in the dark, but seh was still certain this piece of history, was somehow the key. She was a fool. Marethari was at least wise enough to let the past remain forgotten and try to build a new future for her people.[/quote]

You're incorrect. Gaider stated that Merrill used lore and extrapolated information from the shard. Merrill was the most informed about the Eluvian when Marethari never bothered to do any research about it.[/quote]
And Merrill herself says to Hawke that she doesn't know what the Eluvian does, other than allow communication across great distances. Which we know is not even half the story. She is a fool fumbling around in the dark, toying with things she should leave for her betters.

[TEWR]

Morrigan was living with Flemeth, a.k.a Asha Bellanar, for her whole life. I find it entirely likely that Flemeth may have told her a few things concerning the ancient elves.


Morrigan also borrowed (or stole. whatever strikes your fancy because she did give it back) a whole book on the Eluvian. Merrill only has whatever notes and lore she can find. They are hardly on equal footing to say Merrill should've known more than she did.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 juin 2011 - 12:58 .

[Torax]

Emp if you're just repeating yourself without really adding anything new? Then it's probably time to let the subject end. You think she shouldn't have meddled with it. We get that. Go find some other thing to battle against. Maybe some thread about the Chantry and the Circle...

[sphinxess]

I think your missing the point with Merrill - shes not a Andreste and doesn't believe using blood is automatically evil - so all these long expensive or time consuming workarounds wouldn't even occur to her - indeed a good part of this thread has been the argument over blood magic and if its evil or not.

[Torax]

sphinxess wrote...

I think your missing the point with Merrill - shes not a Andreste and doesn't believe using blood is automatically evil - so all these long expensive or time consuming workarounds wouldn't even occur to her - indeed a good part of this thread has been the argument over blood magic and if its evil or not.

I still think it's basically the user not the tools they have at their disposal. A mage can use Lyrium to rip the veil or blood. An Elf could use a knife to cut a slice of bread or to slit a human abuser's neck. Could use a ink pen to write a great story or plunge it into throat of a person cause they looked at you wrong. Overall it's just you that does it not the item. Using one's own blood to power the spell just to fuel a spell wouldn't be completely evil depending on the spell used. So for example. THere is a raging fire in a house across the way. You need to amplify your power so you can call a spell to eliminate the fire quickly. Is it wrong to use your own blood to do so? To save the neighbors house and possibly the people inside? Or it is completely evil?

Dragon Age isn't a perfectly black and white setting. It's a world of "Grey". The Qunari are looked as tryants but obviously they also just follow a logic that so many don't understand and neither side cares to try. You have societies in dissaray. You have people who hate entire races and you can't change them either. Blood Magic is only truly reviled cause of how greatly popularized Andraste became. Fereldon especially became Anti-Imperium. The chant of light even warns about it often. Blood Magic was used against the Elves in a more viscious way along with some other tactics. But the Elves obviously used many forms of magic and knew the spirits well. But the elves knew it was not black and white. The Chantry tries to pretend it is so but it is not. It never will be.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Deztyn wrote...

I don't think Awakening is a good example of how you can learn Blood Magic. It's a book you can buy just like every other specialization. And it's achievement based just like every other specialization so no wardens after the first have to make deals with demons or buy books to learn blood magic (And you can just reload a previous save to make sure not even the first warden has to pay a cost.) In Awakening you can also buy an unlimited number of potions that let you completely respec your warden. It's pure game mechanics, not lore.

Good point. At least for DAO I learnt that I could bully the demon into teaching me the skill.

Two things we needn't assume about blood magic:
1. That it can be learnt only from a demon (at least, it is not sufficiently clear to me why, once it is learnt, it can't be passed on to others - it is another matter that books teaching it may be hard to come by)
2. That a demon is required to power every spell.

As to the respec book/tome in Awakening, I think that came to be from popular demand, seeing how the respec mod was circulating out there for DAO. It was merely an option for those who wanted to play the game that way.

[TEWR]

I say they should give us a codex entry.



How to be a Blood Mage: The Proper Way to Slit Your Wrists


And it tells us that you don't have to contact a demon to learn it.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Silfren wrote...

Jowan states that he dabbled in blood magic because he thought it would make him a better mage.  He later says, in the Redcliffe Dungeon, that he knows nothing about demons.  And we also learn, during the Broken Circle (and are given an early hint in the Mage Origin if we poke around Irving's office and talk to him about what we find), that Irving was apparently leaving books about blood magic around for apprentices to find, so that he and Uldred could weed out dangerous elements within the Circle, all for the greater good.  In other words, Jowan was the victim of entrapment.

I've said this elsewhere, but one thing I've noticed about both DA games is that subtlety is not one of the strong points of any character.  It involves meta-gaming knowledge, sure, but it's as easy and obvious to determine when a character in DA is lying or being truthful as it is of a character in a soap opera or a children's program.  The characters' might as well be wearing "I'm lying, in case you couldn't tell by my body language, my hesitant words, my stuttering, or the tone of my voice."  So I'm quite happy to take Jowan at his word that he really and truly never did anything more than dabble in blood magic for the reason he claims, and that he never had anything to do with demons, because he may be foolish and a bit stupid, but he's not suicidal or evil.

Well, Jowan does admit at the Redcliffe dungeon that his reason was envy toward the Warden, provided a certain course of action is chosen by the Warden. In any case, I don't see it contradictory that he also wanted to be a "better" mage. Having said that, I find it funny to think what his reason might have been if the Warden wasn't a mage - I'm quite willing to go with the "being a better mage," although we don't get to see that. All these different origin stories do end up changing things a bit. As to being a victim of entrapment, I see it fitting in also; I see him as being a bit careless or rash in what he did, so he could easily have fallen prey to it.

And, I also don't see any reason to think he was dealing with demons. At the end of the Arl of Redcliffe quest, after completing the Urn of Sacred Ashes, I even began to trust him. As a warrior, I sent him into the Fade to rescue Connor. He was surprised that I had chosen him, but was hardly unwilling.

Finally, about the "being able to tell whether someone is lying" part, I agree for the most part. And I think there might be other reasons. For instance, it could become quite complicated as a story if such subtelty were used with abandon - in certain rare cases, yes, but not all the time.

Silfren wrote...

I don't recall hearing anything from Jowan at all about being afraid of his Harrowing.  If anything, he was eager for it, to become a full-fledged mage and not just an apprentice.  I don't think he was afraid of it at all...just afraid of the alternatives, since if you don't undergo the Harrowing, you either get killed or made Tranquil.

Even I didn't think he was afraid of it. His motivations might have been to improve his standing compared to his peers and perhaps in the eyes of the First Enchanter, but it doesn't mean he did it to get through his harrowing. In any case, as I found out later in the story, bravery didn't seem entirely lost to him.

[MichaelFinnegan]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I say they should give us a codex entry.



How to be a Blood Mage: The Proper Way to Slit Your Wrists


And it tells us that you don't have to contact a demon to learn it.

Agreed. Or perhaps a confirmation right here in the forums. Although, they might intentionally be trying to keep it obscured.

[TEWR]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Jowan states that he dabbled in blood magic because he thought it would make him a better mage.  He later says, in the Redcliffe Dungeon, that he knows nothing about demons.  And we also learn, during the Broken Circle (and are given an early hint in the Mage Origin if we poke around Irving's office and talk to him about what we find), that Irving was apparently leaving books about blood magic around for apprentices to find, so that he and Uldred could weed out dangerous elements within the Circle, all for the greater good.  In other words, Jowan was the victim of entrapment.

I've said this elsewhere, but one thing I've noticed about both DA games is that subtlety is not one of the strong points of any character.  It involves meta-gaming knowledge, sure, but it's as easy and obvious to determine when a character in DA is lying or being truthful as it is of a character in a soap opera or a children's program.  The characters' might as well be wearing "I'm lying, in case you couldn't tell by my body language, my hesitant words, my stuttering, or the tone of my voice."  So I'm quite happy to take Jowan at his word that he really and truly never did anything more than dabble in blood magic for the reason he claims, and that he never had anything to do with demons, because he may be foolish and a bit stupid, but he's not suicidal or evil.

Well, Jowan does admit at the Redcliffe dungeon that his reason was envy toward the Warden, provided a certain course of action is chosen by the Warden. In any case, I don't see it contradictory that he also wanted to be a "better" mage. Having said that, I find it funny to think what his reason might have been if the Warden wasn't a mage - I'm quite willing to go with the "being a better mage," although we don't get to see that. All these different origin stories do end up changing things a bit. As to being a victim of entrapment, I see it fitting in also; I see him as being a bit careless or rash in what he did, so he could easily have fallen prey to it.

And, I also don't see any reason to think he was dealing with demons. At the end of the Arl of Redcliffe quest, after completing the Urn of Sacred Ashes, I even began to trust him. As a warrior, I sent him into the Fade to rescue Connor. He was surprised that I had chosen him, but was hardly unwilling.

Finally, about the "being able to tell whether someone is lying" part, I agree for the most part. And I think there might be other reasons. For instance, it could become quite complicated as a story if such subtelty were used with abandon - in certain rare cases, yes, but not all the time.

Silfren wrote...

I don't recall hearing anything from Jowan at all about being afraid of his Harrowing.  If anything, he was eager for it, to become a full-fledged mage and not just an apprentice.  I don't think he was afraid of it at all...just afraid of the alternatives, since if you don't undergo the Harrowing, you either get killed or made Tranquil.

Even I didn't think he was afraid of it. His motivations might have been to improve his standing compared to his peers and perhaps in the eyes of the First Enchanter, but it doesn't mean he did it to get through his harrowing. In any case, as I found out later in the story, bravery didn't seem entirely lost to him.

Well the Mage Warden (Wardens?) still exist if you don't play them. If you play a Human Noble, the Mage Warden still existed.

Just like the Dwarf Noble still exists, the Dwarf Commoner (I imagine Jarvia murdered Beraht to move up in the Carta), the City Elf, etc..

They all exist. And of course every Origin story aside from yours dies at some point.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 juin 2011 - 04:24 .