414 réponses à ce sujet

[MichaelFinnegan]

May not be as wardens perhaps, but I see what you mean. We can assume that similar stories exist, irrespective of the particular origin we choose.

[Wolfborn Son]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wolfborn Son wrote...

If I was a magi in Thedas, I wouldn't use blood magic. In fact, I'd tip off the Templar to any blood mage I discovered if I didn't handle it myself. Even if I was an apostate.

Why? You'd be risking your freedom and your life, and you could be potentially turning in a Grey Warden mage who uses blood magic to give them an edge against the darkspawn.

Some Grey Wardens believe the ends justify the means.  I don't.  If a mage doesn't feel his own powers are enough to fight the darkspawn, he doesn't have enough faith in his ability. In time, he will fall.  Better to weed the problem out now, before it can turn against you latter.  After all, we know what happened at Soldier's Peak

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wolfborn Son wrote...

Magic is dangerous in general, blood magic doubly so. Yes, exceptional individuals can stand strong and not become corrupted by the power they use. However, most people aren't exceptional. 

And some mages turn to blood magic as a means of survival because they don't want to live in a dictatorship anymore, and the templars who hunt them down can nullify ordinary magic.

sphinxess wrote...

Im sure the chantry would be very happy
to hear that too- since its the only form of magic the Templar smite
doesnt work against

Is it really freedom, to be free from the Chantry but indebted to a demon? The way I see it, you trade one cage for another.  If I live, I live free until I either die of old age or the Templar kill me.  If I die, I die knowing that I did what I could, on my own. 

[Mickespel]

As I got it, you can learn bloodmagic from books and the part where you use it to power spells, by accident. If the Chantry had decided to outlaw, let's say creation magic, that to would be on the list of secrets for demons to offer.

From the Chanty's point of view, the real danger with bloodmagic are: It can empower spells to such a level that the mage are way harder to deal with for templars. With bloodmagic, a single mage can cast magic that normal mages need to cooperate to produce and spend lot's of lyrium in the process. Blood are readily available, lyrium are not. The chantry cannot control the access of blood and thus cannot control the power mages can wield.

There are also some bloodmagic rituals that require the killing of someone, but instead of outlawing these, the whole school are outlawed.

[Wolfborn Son]

Mickespel wrote...

As I got it, you can learn bloodmagic from books and the part where you use it to power spells, by accident. If the Chantry had decided to outlaw, let's say creation magic, that to would be on the list of secrets for demons to offer.

From the Chanty's point of view, the real danger with bloodmagic are: It can empower spells to such a level that the mage are way harder to deal with for templars. With bloodmagic, a single mage can cast magic that normal mages need to cooperate to produce and spend lot's of lyrium in the process. Blood are readily available, lyrium are not. The chantry cannot control the access of blood and thus cannot control the power mages can wield.

There are also some bloodmagic rituals that require the killing of someone, but instead of outlawing these, the whole school are outlawed.

Blood magic can also summon demons, which as just as bad as darkspawn.  And it can also control minds, which is more or less a form of rape - even if you use if for "good" ends.  While I'd tell the Chantry where it can go, I'd do the same to any blood mage.  There are somethings that are just wrong, by their nature.

[Silfren]

Wolfborn Son wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wolfborn Son wrote...

If I was a magi in Thedas, I wouldn't use blood magic. In fact, I'd tip off the Templar to any blood mage I discovered if I didn't handle it myself. Even if I was an apostate.

Why? You'd be risking your freedom and your life, and you could be potentially turning in a Grey Warden mage who uses blood magic to give them an edge against the darkspawn.

Some Grey Wardens believe the ends justify the means.  I don't.  If a mage doesn't feel his own powers are enough to fight the darkspawn, he doesn't have enough faith in his ability. In time, he will fall.  Better to weed the problem out now, before it can turn against you latter.  After all, we know what happened at Soldier's Peak

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wolfborn Son wrote...

Magic is dangerous in general, blood magic doubly so. Yes, exceptional individuals can stand strong and not become corrupted by the power they use. However, most people aren't exceptional. 

And some mages turn to blood magic as a means of survival because they don't want to live in a dictatorship anymore, and the templars who hunt them down can nullify ordinary magic.

sphinxess wrote...

Im sure the chantry would be very happy
to hear that too- since its the only form of magic the Templar smite
doesnt work against

Is it really freedom, to be free from the Chantry but indebted to a demon? The way I see it, you trade one cage for another.  If I live, I live free until I either die of old age or the Templar kill me.  If I die, I die knowing that I did what I could, on my own. 

I'm curious about your answer as well, because if you turn in a blood mage as an apostate, it isn't as though the templars are going to be lenient toward you.  They'd be obligated to take you into the Circle--"the Order dicates" and all that.  So after you turn in a blood mage, are you going to fight the templars to the death, based on "If I live, I live free until...the Templar(s) kill me" ?  Or will you let them take you into the Circle?

As for a Grey Warden, it doesn't matter whether you agree with blood magic or not in that respect--the Chantry and templars have no jurisdiction over the Wardens, and that includes any blood mages within their ranks.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Wolfborn Son wrote...
Some Grey Wardens believe the ends justify the means.  I don't.  If a mage doesn't feel his own powers are enough to fight the darkspawn, he doesn't have enough faith in his ability. In time, he will fall.  Better to weed the problem out now, before it can turn against you latter.  After all, we know what happened at Soldier's Peak

I suppose the logic would be: when it is an unfair fight, such rules of ethics needn't apply. I think of that as meaning a last act of desperation, for self-preservation. Simply put: I wouldn't rob the right of a man to preserve his life in self-defense. Would you?

Wolfborn Son wrote...
Is it really freedom, to be free from the Chantry but indebted to a demon? The way I see it, you trade one cage for another.  If I live, I live free until I either die of old age or the Templar kill me.  If I die, I die knowing that I did what I could, on my own. 

I think we're yet to establish if all forms of blood magic indeed imply such a cage.

[Deztyn]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

I don't think Awakening is a good example of how you can learn Blood Magic. It's a book you can buy just like every other specialization. And it's achievement based just like every other specialization so no wardens after the first have to make deals with demons or buy books to learn blood magic (And you can just reload a previous save to make sure not even the first warden has to pay a cost.) In Awakening you can also buy an unlimited number of potions that let you completely respec your warden. It's pure game mechanics, not lore.

Good point. At least for DAO I learnt that I could bully the demon into teaching me the skill.

Two things we needn't assume about blood magic:
1. That it can be learnt only from a demon (at least, it is not sufficiently clear to me why, once it is learnt, it can't be passed on to others - it is another matter that books teaching it may be hard to come by)
2. That a demon is required to power every spell.

I assume nothing. I disagree with people using a game mechanic as 'proof', just like I disagree with people using Anders (who either sincerely contradicts himself out of ignorance, or is lying or joking when he makes his comments on Blood Magic.)

As to the respec book/tome in Awakening, I think that came to be from popular demand, seeing how the respec mod was circulating out there for DAO. It was merely an option for those who wanted to play the game that way.

And what makes the Manual of Focus different from the Blood Magic book? They're both there for the needs of the player, not for in story reasons. In Origins there were specializations you couldn't learn unless you took specific story paths, people just took those paths and reloaded to an earlier save to avoid paying the price the writers intended. In Awakening, the devs just didn't bother and opened all of them to the player with the tomes. In DA2 they take it even further and don't even pay lipservice to the idea that some specialties are rare and require instruction. That doesn't mean a person can just wake up one day and know how to be a templar, or reaver or blood mage.

[Silfren]

Wolfborn Son wrote...

Mickespel wrote...

As I got it, you can learn bloodmagic from books and the part where you use it to power spells, by accident. If the Chantry had decided to outlaw, let's say creation magic, that to would be on the list of secrets for demons to offer.

From the Chanty's point of view, the real danger with bloodmagic are: It can empower spells to such a level that the mage are way harder to deal with for templars. With bloodmagic, a single mage can cast magic that normal mages need to cooperate to produce and spend lot's of lyrium in the process. Blood are readily available, lyrium are not. The chantry cannot control the access of blood and thus cannot control the power mages can wield.

There are also some bloodmagic rituals that require the killing of someone, but instead of outlawing these, the whole school are outlawed.

Blood magic can also summon demons, which as just as bad as darkspawn.  And it can also control minds, which is more or less a form of rape - even if you use if for "good" ends.  While I'd tell the Chantry where it can go, I'd do the same to any blood mage.  There are somethings that are just wrong, by their nature.

Problem is, you're turning "can" into "will" as if it is inevitable.  Just as it is not clear that the only possible means of learning blood magic is through demons, it is also not a given that using blood magic always ends up using evil.

Funny that you're so quick to say you'll tell the Chantry where it can go, but you still insist you would turn a blood mage over to the templars, despite that resulting in the loss of your own freedom.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Deztyn wrote...

I assume nothing. I disagree with people using a game mechanic as 'proof', just like I disagree with people using Anders (who either sincerely contradicts himself out of ignorance, or is lying or joking when he makes his comments on Blood Magic.)

I didn't actually intend that comment specifically for you. It was a general note - more so to myself than to anyone else.

And what makes the Manual of Focus different from the Blood Magic book? They're both there for the needs of the player, not for in story reasons. In Origins there were specializations you couldn't learn unless you took specific story paths, people just took those paths and reloaded to an earlier save to avoid paying the price the writers intended. In Awakening, the devs just didn't bother and opened all of them to the player with the tomes. In DA2 they take it even further and don't even pay lipservice to the idea that some specialties are rare and require instruction. That doesn't mean a person can just wake up one day and know how to be a templar, or reaver or blood mage.

I could argue that the Manual of Focus in Awakening isn't exactly like the Manual of the Spirit Healer in DAO, because the latter was the only way to gain this specialization in the game, implying perhaps that books are also one way to learn them - may not be everything, but at least some things. And allowing respecialization later in the series isn't just new to the Dragon Age series. It was also done in ME2, if I remember correctly. It has been done to cater to certain people who like to use it.

Well, reloading a save for such a purpose is entirely upto the player, I think. It is just abusing a certain game mechanic. Certain games like Demon's souls don't allow that, and, well, perhaps many people end up not playing it just for that very reason.

And I agree with you about DA2 and I have stated it before already. Everything just simply opens up. I somehow didn't like it - it just divorces that aspect completely from the story.

[Wolfborn Son]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

I suppose the logic would be: when it is an unfair fight, such rules of ethics needn't apply. I think of that as meaning a last act of desperation, for self-preservation. Simply put: I wouldn't rob the right of a man to preserve his life in self-defense. Would you?

No.  However, you don't need to use a bomb when a knife can get the job done just as easily. 

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

I think we're yet to establish if all forms of blood magic indeed imply such a cage.

Perhaps, but so far we've not seen anything to prove otherwise.  While it might be possible for blood magic to be just another discipline, without any danger whatsoever, we haven't seen it.

Phylacteries bind you to the Circle.  The Joining leads to an eventual death, albeit for a noble cause.  And blood magic, the sort mages have used to "liberate" themselves from the Circle has all been the work of demons. So far, in game, we haven't seen anything to lead us to believe that blood magic isn't dangerous at best or inherently evil at worst.   And honestly, just because the writers leave it ambiguous doesn't necessarily mean it is. (Of course, this could go both ways and Blood Magic might really be some holy art, but I degress).

Silfren wrote...


Problem is, you're
turning "can" into "will" as if it is inevitable.  Just as it is not
clear that the only possible means of learning blood magic is through
demons, it is also not a given that using blood magic always ends up
using evil.

Funny that you're so quick to say you'll tell the
Chantry where it can go, but you still insist you would turn a blood
mage over to the templars, despite that resulting in the loss of your
own freedom.

As I said, a strong-willed mage can master blood magic without falling. However, the games have shown us most mages are not strong-willed.  Also, just because you're an apostate doesn't mean that the Templar know you are. Morrigan was able to slipped in and out of civilization with people being none-the-wiser.  When they did find her, it was because they found Flemeth.   If you practice your magic in secret, provided you don't do anything to draw attention, something tells me that folk would be none-the-wiser provided you learned outside the Circle.  And as I said, if its a risk of me getting turned over I'd handle it myself.

[TEWR]

Wolfborn Son wrote...

Mickespel wrote...

As I got it, you can learn bloodmagic from books and the part where you use it to power spells, by accident. If the Chantry had decided to outlaw, let's say creation magic, that to would be on the list of secrets for demons to offer.

From the Chanty's point of view, the real danger with bloodmagic are: It can empower spells to such a level that the mage are way harder to deal with for templars. With bloodmagic, a single mage can cast magic that normal mages need to cooperate to produce and spend lot's of lyrium in the process. Blood are readily available, lyrium are not. The chantry cannot control the access of blood and thus cannot control the power mages can wield.

There are also some bloodmagic rituals that require the killing of someone, but instead of outlawing these, the whole school are outlawed.

Blood magic can also summon demons, which as just as bad as darkspawn. And it can also control minds, which is more or less a form of rape - even if you use if for "good" ends. While I'd tell the Chantry where it can go, I'd do the same to any blood mage. There are somethings that are just wrong, by their nature.

Eventually the Chantry in all of its stupidity and paranoia would ask "Why is this mage turning in blood mages? Is it to protect himself because he's a blood mage? That must be it!" and then they'd try to kill you. Whether you were one or not wouldn't matter to them until you were dead.


They were willing to call Aneirin a maleficar when he escaped the Circle at the age of 14. He was only a child apostate, yet they thought he was a maleficar for no reason

[sphinxess]

Wolfborn Son wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

I suppose the logic would be: when it is an unfair fight, such rules of ethics needn't apply. I think of that as meaning a last act of desperation, for self-preservation. Simply put: I wouldn't rob the right of a man to preserve his life in self-defense. Would you?

No.  However, you don't need to use a bomb when a knife can get the job done just as easily. 

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

I think we're yet to establish if all forms of blood magic indeed imply such a cage.

Perhaps, but so far we've not seen anything to prove otherwise.  While it might be possible for blood magic to be just another discipline, without any danger whatsoever, we haven't seen it.

Phylacteries bind you to the Circle.  The Joining leads to an eventual death, albeit for a noble cause.  And blood magic, the sort mages have used to "liberate" themselves from the Circle has all been the work of demons. So far, in game, we haven't seen anything to lead us to believe that blood magic isn't dangerous at best or inherently evil at worst.   And honestly, just because the writers leave it ambiguous doesn't necessarily mean it is. (Of course, this could go both ways and Blood Magic might really be some holy art, but I degress).

Silfren wrote...
Problem is, you're turning "can" into "will" as if it is inevitable.  Just as it is not  clear that the only possible means of learning blood magic is through demons, it is also not a given that using blood magic always ends up
using evil.

Funny that you're so quick to say you'll tell the Chantry where it can go, but you still insist you would turn a blood
mage over to the templars, despite that resulting in the loss of your own freedom.

As I said, a strong-willed mage can master blood magic without falling. However, the games have shown us most mages are not strong-willed.  Also, just because you're an apostate doesn't mean that the Templar know you are. Morrigan was able to slipped in and out of civilization with people being none-the-wiser.  When they did find her, it was because they found Flemeth.   If you practice your magic in secret, provided you don't do anything to draw attention, something tells me that folk would be none-the-wiser provided you learned outside the Circle.  And as I said, if its a risk of me getting turned over I'd handle it myself.

Im not sure I get your meaning - if a Templar drains your magic - using Blood Magic to defend yourself is too strong a response?  I suppose the response would have to be win using blood magic or surrender <cause if you lose using blood magic they will kill you on the spot. I dont see a middle ground - train with a knife well enough to defeat a Templar?

There are examples of deals being made with demons that dont trap the mage to the demon <not trading one cage for another> - and all mages have access to demons when they dream - thats what the harrowing is all about. Phylacteries are a form of blood magic <blood calling to blood>, the joining is used to slow down the taint neither involve demons. Merrill uses blood magic to remove the taint from the mirror shard - where is the evil in that?  The way too many mages Hawke runs into that turn into a abomination under stress seem to use a spell that more like pulling the pin on a grenade when they know they are about to die - no control of the demon is tried.

Magic seems to be a automatic reponse in certain situations - most mages are found out as children. Morrigan not only lives in the wild, doesn't need to earn money to live, but also has a branch of magic <I would guess Chantry banned> that gives her a way to easily escape <shapechange>. Practice your magic in secret? who teaches you? not everyone is lucky enough to have a mage parent .

Modifié par sphinxess, 14 juin 2011 - 08:14 .

[Wolfborn Son]

sphinxess wrote...

Wolfborn Son wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

I suppose the logic would be: when it is an unfair fight, such rules of ethics needn't apply. I think of that as meaning a last act of desperation, for self-preservation. Simply put: I wouldn't rob the right of a man to preserve his life in self-defense. Would you?

No.  However, you don't need to use a bomb when a knife can get the job done just as easily. 

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

I think we're yet to establish if all forms of blood magic indeed imply such a cage.

Perhaps, but so far we've not seen anything to prove otherwise.  While it might be possible for blood magic to be just another discipline, without any danger whatsoever, we haven't seen it.

Phylacteries bind you to the Circle.  The Joining leads to an eventual death, albeit for a noble cause.  And blood magic, the sort mages have used to "liberate" themselves from the Circle has all been the work of demons. So far, in game, we haven't seen anything to lead us to believe that blood magic isn't dangerous at best or inherently evil at worst.   And honestly, just because the writers leave it ambiguous doesn't necessarily mean it is. (Of course, this could go both ways and Blood Magic might really be some holy art, but I degress).

Silfren wrote...
Problem is, you're turning "can" into "will" as if it is inevitable.  Just as it is not  clear that the only possible means of learning blood magic is through demons, it is also not a given that using blood magic always ends up
using evil.

Funny that you're so quick to say you'll tell the Chantry where it can go, but you still insist you would turn a blood
mage over to the templars, despite that resulting in the loss of your own freedom.

As I said, a strong-willed mage can master blood magic without falling. However, the games have shown us most mages are not strong-willed.  Also, just because you're an apostate doesn't mean that the Templar know you are. Morrigan was able to slipped in and out of civilization with people being none-the-wiser.  When they did find her, it was because they found Flemeth.   If you practice your magic in secret, provided you don't do anything to draw attention, something tells me that folk would be none-the-wiser provided you learned outside the Circle.  And as I said, if its a risk of me getting turned over I'd handle it myself.

Im not sure I get your meaning - if a Templar drains your magic - using Blood Magic to defend yourself is too strong a response- you can defeat a Templar one-on-one with a knife?

There are examples of deals being made with demons that dont trap the mage to the demon <trading one cage for another> - and all mages have access to demons when they dream - thats what the harrowing is all about. Phylacteries are a form of blood magic <blood calling to blood>, the joining is used to slow down the taint neither involve demons. Merrill uses blood magic to remove the taint from the mirror shard - where is the evil in that?  Mages that turn into a abomination seem to use a spell that more like pulling the pin on a grenade when they know they are about to die - no control of the demon is tried.

Magic seems to be a automatic reponse in certain situations - most mages are found out as children. Morrigan not only lives in the wild, doesn't need to earn money to live, but also has a branch of magic <I would guess Chantry banned> that gives her a way to easily escape <shapechange>. Practice your magic in secret? who teaches you? not everyone is lucky enough to have a mage parent .

I still say a mage using blood magic goes to far, even if he's going to face death at templar steel. 


As for demons, the Dragon Age demons remind me a lot of demons from Warhammer.   Sure, they might have sweet tongues and can offer you a boon... But nine times out of ten unless you're protected by plot armor, it doesn't end up going right.  Do you think one would honestly teach a mage blood magic unless it would gain something?

And the other forms of blood magic, phylacteries and the Joining, are still 'cages'.   The former ensures that the Chantries can find you while the later means your more or less sacrifce you life to save the world - you no longer have your own life. 

As for Merril's blood magic? I can potentially lead to her clans' slaughter and at the very least ends with the death of the Keeper, all in the name of protecting her.  It goes back to the whole demon thing - Merril was a tool for it to use to find an escape.  While it likely didn't go 'just as planned' for the Pride Demon, it still got what it wanted.

You're right about having an apostate teacher... But I'd wager Morrigan's survival outside the Wilds, at least as an adult, had far more to do with her wits than her abilities.   Also, what apostate wouldn't stick to living away from society? Frankly, if Anders kept to himself he'd like never be caught.

[Mickespel]

Wolfborn Son wrote...

Mickespel wrote...

As I got it, you can learn bloodmagic from books and the part where you use it to power spells, by accident. If the Chantry had decided to outlaw, let's say creation magic, that to would be on the list of secrets for demons to offer.

From the Chanty's point of view, the real danger with bloodmagic are: It can empower spells to such a level that the mage are way harder to deal with for templars. With bloodmagic, a single mage can cast magic that normal mages need to cooperate to produce and spend lot's of lyrium in the process. Blood are readily available, lyrium are not. The chantry cannot control the access of blood and thus cannot control the power mages can wield.

There are also some bloodmagic rituals that require the killing of someone, but instead of outlawing these, the whole school are outlawed.

Blood magic can also summon demons, which as just as bad as darkspawn.  And it can also control minds, which is more or less a form of rape - even if you use if for "good" ends.  While I'd tell the Chantry where it can go, I'd do the same to any blood mage.  There are somethings that are just wrong, by their nature.

Other schools also got morally questionble spells, why ban the whole school and not just the evil spells? Spells really should be sorted as legal/restricted/outlawed. Restricted spells are then only teached to selected mages that earned a special licence. A "need to know" system.

[LobselVith8]

Wolfborn Son wrote...

Some Grey Wardens believe the ends justify the means.  I don't. 

You're welcome to that opinion, but it doesn't change that blood magic isn't prohibited by the order. Blood magic is stronger than standard magic, and the darkspawn are the greatest threat ever faced by the sentient races across Thedas. If it means the difference between people being eaten alive and women being violated, blood magic is a tool that should be used, and technically is used every time a Grey Warden is made through The Joining.

Wolfborn Son wrote...

If a mage doesn't feel his own powers are enough to fight the darkspawn, he doesn't have enough faith in his ability. In time, he will fall.  Better to weed the problem out now, before it can turn against you latter.  After all, we know what happened at Soldier's Peak

You mean, where the blood mage Avernus unlocked the potential of the taint, and can make a breakthrough that might mean victory against the darkspawn?

Wolfborn Son wrote...

Is it really freedom, to be free from the Chantry but indebted to a demon?

Blood magic can be learned without the need for a demon, like in the case of Jowan, and even Finn uses a ritual of blood magic that he read about. Merrill was being to learn blood magic from a demon without losing her soul or her freedom in the process.

Wolfborn Son wrote...

The way I see it, you trade one cage for another.  If I live, I live free until I either die of old age or the Templar kill me.  If I die, I die knowing that I did what I could, on my own. 

Only if the mage becomes an abomination. If the mage is a blood mage, it gives them a real edge. Templars can nullify an apostate's abilities, but not the abilities of a blood mage. It's the difference between life and death.

[TEWR]

You mean, where the blood mage Avernus unlocked the potential of the taint, and can make a breakthrough that might mean victory against the darkspawn?

Not to mention the Wardens were going to die anyway against the demons and Arland the Tyrant's army.


And I don't think there was anything in game actually stating they were experimented on against their will. We're only assuming that was the case.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean, where the blood mage Avernus unlocked the potential of the taint, and can make a breakthrough that might mean victory against the darkspawn?

Not to mention the Wardens were going to die anyway against the demons and Arland the Tyrant's army.


And I don't think there was anything in game actually stating they were experimented on against their will. We're only assuming that was the case.

Avernus took a calculated risk to win a battle against a tyranny but he was able to imprison the demons in Soldier's Peak, and not let them run loose in Ferelden.

And as Alistair said at Ostagar, being a Grey Warden means they aren't heroes or knights, but the Wardens do whatever it takes to stop the darkspawn.

Wolfborn Son wrote...

As for Merril's blood magic? I can potentially lead to her clans' slaughter and at the very least ends with the death of the Keeper, all in the name of protecting her.

Blood magic doesn't lead the slaughter of the clan, Marethari's actions do, if they're informed of what Marethari did. Marethari made her decision because of her speculation about the Eluvian, which she know nothing about, not Merrill's blood magic.

Wolfborn Son wrote...
It goes back to the whole demon thing - Merril was a tool for it to use to find an escape.  While it likely didn't go 'just as planned' for the Pride Demon, it still got what it wanted.

I think Marethari was Audacity's plan all along.

Wolfborn Son wrote...

You're right about having an apostate teacher... But I'd wager Morrigan's survival outside the Wilds, at least as an adult, had far more to do with her wits than her abilities.   Also, what apostate wouldn't stick to living away from society? Frankly, if Anders kept to himself he'd like never be caught.

Anders came to Kirkwall for Karl.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Wolfborn Son wrote...

No.  However, you don't need to use a bomb when a knife can get the job done just as easily.  

Let's be more clear about it. I say when A attacks B without justification or provocation, A loses all claims to impunity, ethical or otherwise, from how B might counteract. You dispute this? If so, on what grounds?

Perhaps, but so far we've not seen anything to prove otherwise.  While it might be possible for blood magic to be just another discipline, without any danger whatsoever, we haven't seen it.

Danger in what sense though? All offensive spells are dangerous, in one way or another. And to be clear, from what we really know, issues with blood magic arise from such things as potential to control minds of others, from the potential to give power by draining blood of others, and so on.This is hardly all of what blood magic is. I think this has been repeatedly mentioned in the discussions that have happened here.

Phylacteries bind you to the Circle.

They bind mages, as in those mages are chained for life. Don't you see anything wrong with that?

The Joining leads to an eventual death, albeit for a noble cause.

The Joining could happen voluntarily or it could happen by conscription. So, its being "noble" is a hit or miss at best.

And blood magic, the sort mages have used to "liberate" themselves from the Circle has all been the work of demons.

Just now we were discussing about Jowan, where some of us discussed that there was no compelling evidence that he was under the influence of any demon, or even that he interacted with one. If you have anything to offer to the contrary, please do so.

Still, what we have seen is but a fraction of all blood mages in existence. We have no clue about how many are in the wild, and in what state of existence they are in.

So far, in game, we haven't seen anything to lead us to believe that blood magic isn't dangerous at best or inherently evil at worst.

It isn't also far fetched to believe some escaping Circle mages might turn to blood magic for self-protection - against hunting Templars; anything to give them an edge, to surive free of the shackles of the Circle and Chantry.

And honestly, just because the writers leave it ambiguous doesn't necessarily mean it is. (Of course, this could go both ways and Blood Magic might really be some holy art, but I degress).

I think it is ambiguous to judge because we've not been shown the whole truth, to be very honest.

Also, I have no clue about what you mean by "holy art." Are you alluding to some divine thing? So, if I understand your postion correctly, are you suggesting that if blood magic was sanctioned by some deity, it would automatically become "good" irrespective of how mages might use it?

As I said, a strong-willed mage can master blood magic without falling. However, the games have shown us most mages are not strong-willed.  Also, just because you're an apostate doesn't mean that the Templar know you are.

You're recommending a life of hiding for mages? Doesn't that mean that you don't believe that mages in general would  intentionally hurt others? If they can do so peacefully in hiding, what do you think would prevent them from doing the same in a more open, accepting society?

Morrigan was able to slipped in and out of civilization with people being none-the-wiser.  When they did find her, it was because they found Flemeth.   If you practice your magic in secret, provided you don't do anything to draw attention, something tells me that folk would be none-the-wiser provided you learned outside the Circle.  And as I said, if its a risk of me getting turned over I'd handle it myself.

Morrigan has lived a life of exile, of constant movement, of trying to escape hunting Templars. A life that has probably shaped her into a power-hungry mage. In other words, a life of an apostate - an outlaw of an inherently corrupt system, that brands mages as dangerous just because of an accident of their birth. Is this the kind of life you want all mages to endure? But why?

[EmperorSahlertz]

If contact with a demon is required to cast every blood magic spell, it would explain in even deeper detail, just why you can't learn blood magic from a book. Or rather, that you can learn it from a book, but the deal with a demon part is required to actually use it.

As it is now, the only text we have about instructions to learn blood magic, tells you to summon a demon and strike a bargain with it. That is the compelling evidence we got. No other source gives anything but a few unreliable legends on the origins of blood magic (ie. not even instructions on its functions). In other words: So far all the proof we got points toward demon involvement. Which by extension will mean Jowan did contact demons.

[TEWR]

You have no evidence to say Jowan did contact a demon. You can say that you think he did (which I disagree with), but don't say "It means Jowan did contact demons"

[EmperorSahlertz]

There is more evidence pointing towards blood magic being tought, or involving demons, than against it, which, if true. will by extension mean Jowan must've contacted a demon.

[Herr Uhl]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There is more evidence pointing towards blood magic being tought, or involving demons, than against it, which, if true. will by extension mean Jowan must've contacted a demon.

Guilty until proven innocent?

And, give us this evidence.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The scroll of Banastor is the only text we have actually regarding the teaching of blood magic. The only. All the other entries are legends, which are more or less unreliable, and furthermore, doesn't even regard the actual function of blood magic. Scroll of Banstor is the leading entry on the matter of Blood Magic, and it explicitly tells you to contact a demon, and strike a bargain with it.
Furthermore, just because it could originally have been "taught" by an Archdemon or en Elf, doesn't mean that "And you contact the demons correctly like this". isn't actually all they did.

And if indeed a demon is needed for blood magic to function, and Jowans blood magic functions, then he must've contacted a demon. That is the proof to his guilt in this case.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 14 juin 2011 - 05:55 .

[Wulfram]

As far as I can see scrolls of banastor suggest that blood magic attracts demons, and that it can be used to attempt to control them. But it doesn't say that they are necessary for blood magic.