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[EmperorSahlertz]

"To begin the path to true power, court these poor, terrible creatures and best them. Force them into servitude or pledge your heart to them. Either way, you gain immense power and the means with which to tear holes in the world."

Doesn't that sound like having to contact a demon, to begin your path as a blood mage, to you?

[Deztyn]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

I could argue that the Manual of Focus in Awakening isn't exactly like the Manual of the Spirit Healer in DAO, because the latter was the only way to gain this specialization in the game, implying perhaps that books are also one way to learn them - may not be everything, but at least some things. And allowing respecialization later in the series isn't just new to the Dragon Age series. It was also done in ME2, if I remember correctly. It has been done to cater to certain people who like to use it.

Well, reloading a save for such a purpose is entirely upto the player, I think. It is just abusing a certain game mechanic. Certain games like Demon's souls don't allow that, and, well, perhaps many people end up not playing it just for that very reason.

And I agree with you about DA2 and I have stated it before already. Everything just simply opens up. I somehow didn't like it - it just divorces that aspect completely from the story.

There's nothing wrong with respec. But the method used is the same method you use to learn blood magic (provided you haven't unlocked it on another character.) One is clearly a gameplay device. There's no reason to believe the other is any different. Especially since you can't even buy the book if you have another, completely unrelated warden who already unlocked the specialization. Does that mean that the other wardens didn't learn blood magic somewhere and were just able to pull the knowledge out from the ether? I'd guess not.

[LobselVith8]

Wulfram wrote...

As far as I can see scrolls of banastor suggest that blood magic attracts demons, and that it can be used to attempt to control them. But it doesn't say that they are necessary for blood magic.

That's true. There's no evidence that demons are required to learn blood magic.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

As far as I can see scrolls of banastor suggest that blood magic attracts demons, and that it can be used to attempt to control them. But it doesn't say that they are necessary for blood magic.

That's true. There's no evidence that demons are required to learn blood magic.

"To begin the path to true power, court these poor, terrible creatures and best them. Force them into servitude or pledge your heart to them. Either way, you gain immense power and the means with which to tear holes in the world."

If that doesn't mean "summon a demon to begin" to you, then it is because you refuse to understand.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

As far as I can see scrolls of banastor suggest that blood magic attracts demons, and that it can be used to attempt to control them. But it doesn't say that they are necessary for blood magic.

That's true. There's no evidence that demons are required to learn blood magic.

"To begin the path to true power, court these poor, terrible creatures and best them. Force them into servitude or pledge your heart to them. Either way, you gain immense power and the means with which to tear holes in the world."

If that doesn't mean "summon a demon to begin" to you, then it is because you refuse to understand.

Maybe you could try providing a codex or a statement that says blood magic requires the use of a demon instead of part of a scroll that talks about attaining power through forcing demons into servitude.

[EmperorSahlertz]

................ I guess I should have anticipated that...

Now, try read the entry again. Focus on the first part. Which explains what the power of blood magic is.
Then read on through the next couple of paragraphs, which explains how to attain this power.
Then come back and read your own replies again.
And then understand, how you fail to understand. And realize that until another entry explaining an alternative way to learn blood magic, this is all we have to go on. Please.

[TEWR]

It seems to be more of an ancient Tevinter spell used to force demons into servitude. Which is exactly what the Tevinter Imperium does (Tarohne imitated Tevinter secretly, Danarius is a magister, Gascard because he got shipments from Tevinter, etc.)

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 juin 2011 - 06:38 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

................ I guess I should have anticipated that...

Now, try read the entry again. Focus on the first part. Which explains what the power of blood magic is.
Then read on through the next couple of paragraphs, which explains how to attain this power.
Then come back and read your own replies again.
And then understand, how you fail to understand. And realize that until another entry explaining an alternative way to learn blood magic, this is all we have to go on. Please.

I did read it, but it doesn't stipulate that blood magic requires a demon, nor does the lore. If we account for the books on blood magic, The Joining, Finn's ritual, Anders' comment to Merrill, and The Warden teaching blood magic to Anders, there's more than enough evidence to contradict your claim on this issue.

In other words, you have no evidence blood magic requires the need for a demon. I'll let everyone else hit their head against a cement block while you keep repeating your opinion over and over again.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Finn's ritual ISN'T blood magic. Try again.
You don't know what the books says either. For all you know, they could tell you how to contact the demons. Try again.
Nor is the joinning blood magic. Try again.
You don't know just how the Warden taught Ander's blood magic, if he even did, instead of just ordering Anders to learn it. Try again.
And, as I have already disputed many times, Anders' comment is highly unreliable. Try again.

So basically you are left with nothing, but you own wishful thinking, and your delibirate misreading of the Scroll of Banastor.

But if you want to remain in your own little lala-land, be my guest, just don't come crying back here, when how blood magic is taught is clarified.

[Torax]

Blood Magic COULD be taught to someone by a mage. Blood Magic is a strong means with which to force SPIRITS into servitude. That is what the Scrolls is about. Spirits that you see as Demons. Reason being they are individual beings with personalities and can be intimidated, threatened and forced into your control. The thing is there is only so much you can hold to them to. Desire Spirits may be more likely to hold to a contract but you are still dealing with a individual that you would have to be on guard against. The player is able to intimidate one demon with fear of destruction within her own lair. Under that same situation is it not basically a parallel to forcing a demon into a slave?

Dumat supposedly taught a future Magister how to use Blood Magic. It was used to overthrow the Elves. The Elves were already well versed in magic, lyrium and basically had a well established understanding that may not have catered to the wishes of the Old Gods. Meanwhile the humans who started to appear into the fade had just newly discovered their gifts. Were offered power by Dumat. Learned much. The first of the human "Dreamers" (Like our half bred mage pal in DA2) were able to keep powerful elven mages in prisons of the fade and forced them to teach them what they knew about the fade, lyrium and even more. Eventually overthrowing them. Blood Magic would have helped in this since the Magisters needed to find a way to conquer an opponent like the Elven Empire.

Dumat wasn't a demon and showed this form of magic to at least one Magister. Books have taught others. It's a school of magic. Yes it can attract demons to your presence but that is like saying the demons wouldn't notice any powerful mage and not get a stiffy. The other thing to remember is just that a Demon is a Spirit like any other you deal with. Just some are more strong willed, aggressive, lazy, calm and so on. Why they can be manipulated depending on the situation. They just lack the spark of creativity. It's that which they covet.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Deztyn wrote...

There's nothing wrong with respec.

I didn't suggest this, actually. In fact, this is only an option, so those who want can use it and those who don't can, well, ignore it altogether.

But the method used is the same method you use to learn blood magic (provided you haven't unlocked it on another character.) One is clearly a gameplay device. There's no reason to believe the other is any different.

I'm saying simply that to become a (mage) Spirit Healer or even a (rogue) Ranger in DAO, one had to read the respective manuals and there was no other way to learn them. This leads me to believe that learning such skills from books is also suggested as a possibility. I simply cannot explain it in any other way - not that I'm saying there isn't another explanation.

But, let me state this clearly: I don't intend to link this to how blood magic itself might be learnt. I'm still unclear about it.

And let us not forget that the Manual of Focus came only for Awakening, and I still think it came for the reason I said earlier. I think you're focusing more on the "form" of doing the respec in Awakening and relating it to learning about those two specializations; which (i.e. respec) by the way has transformed into a potion in DA2.

Especially since you can't even buy the book if you have another, completely unrelated warden who already unlocked the specialization. Does that mean that the other wardens didn't learn blood magic somewhere and were just able to pull the knowledge out from the ether? I'd guess not.

Okay, let me attempt an explanation. The first time, I suppose it is for story reasons, to take a certain path to unlock the specialization. The second time around, it could be more to reduce annoyance? That's the best I can do.

And it is not just limited to the books - what you say is true for any specialization. If Zevran helped you unlock the Assassin specialization in the first run, it will also be unlocked from the start for all further playthroughs.

EDIT: Adding quotes.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 14 juin 2011 - 07:10 .

[Deztyn]

LobselVith8,

- We have no idea what the books Jowan learned from contain. This is not proof you are right.

- The joining and Finn's ritual have nothing to do with how blood magic is learned, if they are even examples of true blood magic. I have no idea why you think this proves you are right.

- And again Anders comment to Merrill is a question, one he asks despite being present when she admits to making a deal with a demon. His comment to Fenris explicitly states that you MUST deal with a demon to USE blood magic. He is not proof you are right.

-- And once again the Warden doesn't teach Anders blood magic. The warden doesn't even need to know blood magic to assign Anders that specialization. This is not proof you are right.

Modifié par Deztyn, 14 juin 2011 - 07:13 .

[Wulfram]

Torax wrote...

Dumat wasn't a demon

Citation needed

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

Torax wrote...

Dumat wasn't a demon

Citation needed

Codex Entry on Old Gods.  Dumat was the greatest and oldest of the old gods.  There is some dispute whether or not they are gods or superintelligent High Dragons, but they clearly are not demons.

-Polaris

[Deztyn]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Deztyn wrote...


But the method used is the same method you use to learn blood magic (provided you haven't unlocked it on another character.) One is clearly a gameplay device. There's no reason to believe the other is any different.

I'm saying simply that to become a (mage) Spirit Healer or even a (rogue) Ranger in DAO, one had to read the respective manuals and there was no other way to learn them. This leads me to believe that learning such skills from books is also suggested as a possibility. I simply cannot explain it in any other way - not that I'm saying there isn't another explanation.

The implication from Origins was that certain abilities aren't rare or difficult to find information on. Spirit Healers might not be common but Wynne and Anders both start with that specialization as Circle mages. It's available to buy because the knowledge is easier to find than the rare or forbidden disciplines.

But, let me state this clearly: I don't intend to link this to how blood magic itself might be learnt. I'm still unclear about it.

And let us not forget that the Manual of Focus came only for Awakening, and I still think it came for the reason I said earlier. I think you're focusing more on the "form" of doing the respec in Awakening and relating it to learning about those two specializations; which (i.e. respec) by the way has transformed into a potion in DA2.

And the blood magic manual only came in Awakening. My position is this: if all books in Awakening are not part of the game lore, you can not state with certainty that any books in Awakening are part of the game lore.

Unless, of course, WoG wants to step in and clarify.

Especially since you can't even buy the book if you have another, completely unrelated warden who already unlocked the specialization. Does that mean that the other wardens didn't learn blood magic somewhere and were just able to pull the knowledge out from the ether? I'd guess not.

Okay, let me attempt an explanation. The first time, I suppose it is for story reasons, to take a certain path to unlock the specialization. The second time around, it could be more to reduce annoyance? That's the best I can do.

Agreed. It's pure gameplay there for the convenience of the player and says nothing about how the abilities would be learned in story.

And it is not just limited to the books - what you say is true for any specialization. If Zevran helped you unlock the Assassin specialization in the first run, it will also be unlocked from the start for all further playthroughs.

Yes, but you can still roleplay learning it from Zevran because it's part of the story, not just a part of gameplay.

Modifié par Deztyn, 14 juin 2011 - 07:26 .

[IanPolaris]

There is not one scintilla of proof (not even the Scrolls of Bannastor that Emp quotes) that says that making a deal with a demon is REQUIRED to learn blood magic. It is one way to be sure and probably the most common given that Bloodmagic is generally forbidden, but we know it can be taught from one person to another (your Orlesian Warden can teach Anders Bloodmagic in DAA with no demon required for one simple example).

-Polaris

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Unlike you, I am no coward, hiding behind magic. I would stop a rape. But I would at elast be man (human) enough to stop it with my fists. You on the other hand chooses the wrong option to stop a wrongful action. You are the one who would rather just mind control a man to stop, and let him go about his business. That way he learns nothing, and will probably try again another day, on another hapless victim. All thanks to your mind control.
Unless of course you seek to teach him a lesson after ou stop him, at which point he won't udnerstand the reason because he wasn't aware of what he was doing, so he won't learn his lessons either this way. Simply put, mind control is the absolutely worst option you could possibly pick, and it would never even be the only option, just the worst.

Wolfborn Son wrote...
No.  However, you don't need to use a bomb when a knife can get the job done just as easily. 

To suggest that using blood magic to stop an act of violence is being a coward and hiding behind magic just reveals your own personal bias and little more.  Not everyone is a Manly Man with Manly Skills and walks around fully equipped with Manly Weapons of Manly Strength and Manly Doom.   You might as well be arguing that shooting a man in the process of assaulting someone is being cowardly and hiding behind a weapon, when you could should be man enough to stop him with your fists.  It's the same bloody logic.

The problem is, it assumes that you would be capable of fighting off the assailant, which is not necessarily a given, because you don't know how your strength or skill or determination will compare against the other person.

Other factors to consider: what if you don't have a weapon, and the other person does?  What if you're close enough to see and hear the attack taking place, but not exactly within..."swinging distance," as it were?  Better yet, what is there's more than one assailant, and you, of course, are just the one person?

Using a gun gives you a far better chance, although how much of a chance is mitigated by whether or not the person engaging in the assault has his own weapon, and possibly companions as backup.  Same goes for blood magic.  Under the circumstances, using blood magic to mind control the attackers is perfectly justified. 

Assuming that using blood magic in that scenario is just being cowardly is...well, there's being a Manly Man and being Manly instead of Cowardly...and then there's common sense.  It's extremely dogmatic and short-sighted to maintain that blood magic is always and only ever evil, regardless of the application, when there are situations in which it is demonstrably the morally sound thing to do. 

Argh, I keep getting cut off before I can finish.  It does seem to be that the game would have us believe that blood magic is at least usually learned from demons, whether or not it can be learned by other means.  On the other hand, that doesn't account for the origins of blood magic.  The codices we have indicate that it was either taught by the Old God Dumat, or was an art taught originally by the elves of Arlathan, although that says nothing about where the Elves themselves would have learned it.  If blood magic is primarily, or exclusively, taught by demons, that it just stands to reason that that would make the Old Gods demons.  That, of course, fits with Chantry dogma, but since when is the Chantry's position historical fact?  

I would agree that if blood magic originated from, and was learnable only by, demons, that it would follow that it is generally an evil type of magic--although I would still maintain that it had its non-evil applications.  But of course that assumes that demons themselves are purely evil beings, and I'm starting to agree with Merrill's position on that matter.  Even in Origins, the Sloth demon himself says "but not all demons are demons."

Modifié par Silfren, 14 juin 2011 - 07:36 .

[LobselVith8]

Deztyn wrote...

LobselVith8,

- We have no idea what the books Jowan learned from contain. This is not proof you are right.

They are books on blood magic, as Irving points out.

Deztyn wrote...

- The joining and Finn's ritual have nothing to do with how blood magic is learned, if they are even examples of true blood magic. I have no idea why you think this proves you are right.

Finn's ritual is blood magic, which The Warden can even address, and it's the reason why Finn asks him not to tell anyone about it. The Joining is Archdemon blood, darkspawn blood, and magic; if Gaider can point out at PAX that the phylacteries can be viewed as blood magic, I don't see how The Joining can be excluded from this.

Deztyn wrote...

- And again Anders comment to Merrill is a question, one he asks despite being present when she admits to making a deal with a demon. His comment to Fenris explicitly states that you MUST deal with a demon to USE blood magic. He is not proof you are right.

Anders asks Merrill if she learned blood magic on her own, and his comment to Fenris pertains to when a mage makes a deal with a demon.

Deztyn wrote...

-- And once again the Warden doesn't teach Anders blood magic. The warden doesn't even need to know blood magic to assign Anders that specialization. This is not proof you are right.

The Warden teaches Anders, which is noted in the dialogue between them that he's now a blood mage.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Finn's ritual ISN'T blood magic. Try again.

Oh? Then why does he want to keep it a secret between the Warden, Ariane, Dog, and himself? If it's not blood magic, why's he want to keep it a secret so badly? If it was creation magic, I doubt it would be such a big deal.

Nor is the joinning blood magic. Try again.

I (and Silfren, whom I shall quote in a minute) have proven to you before that the Joining is blood magic. Try again

 Silfren wrote...

Except, "claim that because ritual A is done a certain way, B must also be done such a way" is not what they said.  They said that if drinking blood to become a Reaver means it is a type of blood magic, it stands to reason that the Joining, as it also involves drinking blood in order to become something, is also a type of blood magic.  The two rituals don't just have blood as a component in common but involve the drinking of blood in order to gain a particular ability. 

You've just got this wonderful knack at twisting words.  Positing the claim that the Joining is blood magic because it shares a fundamental characteristic with another rite is not saying that because you do one ritual one way, another ritual must be done precisely the same.  It's saying that because two given rituals already DO achieve a goal via the same means, they fall under the same classification.

[ddv.rsa]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Finn's ritual ISN'T blood magic. Try again.
You don't know what the books says either. For all you know, they could tell you how to contact the demons. Try again.
Nor is the joinning blood magic. Try again.
You don't know just how the Warden taught Ander's blood magic, if he even did, instead of just ordering Anders to learn it. Try again.
And, as I have already disputed many times, Anders' comment is highly unreliable. Try again.

So basically you are left with nothing, but you own wishful thinking, and your delibirate misreading of the Scroll of Banastor.

But if you want to remain in your own little lala-land, be my guest, just don't come crying back here, when how blood magic is taught is clarified.

How is the joining and Finn's ritual not blood magic? Magic using energy provided by blood = blood magic.

[Wulfram]

@The Ethereal Writer:  Even if it's not technically blood magic, would you want to have to explain that to the Templars?  Some of them don't seem the types to care about the fine distinctions between blood magic and magic that happens to involve blood.

IanPolaris wrote...

Codex Entry on Old Gods.  Dumat was the greatest and oldest of the old gods.  There is some dispute whether or not they are gods or superintelligent High Dragons, but they clearly are not demons.

-Polaris

The nature of the Old Gods is very unclear, but the obvious explanation to me has always been that they are very powerful spirits/demons who possessed High Dragons has always seemed the most obvious explanation to me, and there's nothing which contradicts this that I can see.

[Herr Uhl]

ddv.rsa wrote...

How is the joining and Finn's ritual not blood magic? Magic using energy provided by blood = blood magic.

How is the joining magic using the power of blood? As far as I've seen it is a reaction to a toxic substance.

Is drinking the blood of an archdemon magic too in that case?

[MichaelFinnegan]

Deztyn wrote...

The implication from Origins was that certain abilities aren't rare or difficult to find information on. Spirit Healers might not be common but Wynne and Anders both start with that specialization as Circle mages. It's available to buy because the knowledge is easier to find than the rare or forbidden disciplines.

I'm not denying this. In fact, I wanted to say something else earlier, but forgot: that books of blood magic might just be rare to find in Ferelden. If one were in Tevinter, for instance, the situation could just be opposite.

And the blood magic manual only came in Awakening. My position is this: if all books in Awakening are not part of the game lore, you can not state with certainty that any books in Awakening are part of the game lore.

I'm not even debating what we find in Awakening. I agree with you, by the way. There isn't sufficient proof to say anything about learning blood magic from a book.

Unless, of course, WoG wants to step in and clarify.

WoG?

Agreed. It's pure gameplay there for the convenience of the player and says nothing about how the abilities would be learned in story.

Which abilities? Are you referring to Awakening again? My point is that I think all abilities we find in DAO are actually part of the story. It is just that the cheaper or easier to find - however you look at it - (at least in Ferelden) specializations can be learnt from manuals.

Yes, but you can still roleplay learning it from Zevran because it's part of the story, not just a part of gameplay.

Are you perchance saying that the Manuals of Spirit Healer and Ranger aren't part of the story? Or are you saying that one can hold back using the Assassin specialization in all playthroughs after the first until one learns it from Zevran? Or both?

[TEWR]

If it's not blood magic, there's nothing to fear. Especially if you were talking to Gregoir and Irving, who are decent people and would listen (even if they used books as entrapment).

[Deztyn]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

LobselVith8,

- We have no idea what the books Jowan learned from contain. This is not proof you are right.

They are books on blood magic, as Irving points out.

But what do they say? What do they actually teach? How to contact a demon? How to use your blood magic after you've made a deal with a demon? 

We don't know.

Deztyn wrote...

- The joining and Finn's ritual have nothing to do with how blood magic is learned, if they are even examples of true blood magic. I have no idea why you think this proves you are right.

Finn's ritual is blood magic, which The Warden can even address, and it's the reason why Finn asks him not to tell anyone about it. The Joining is Archdemon blood, darkspawn blood, and magic; if Gaider can point out at PAX that the phylacteries can be viewed as blood magic, I don't see how The Joining can be excluded from this.

None of which has anything to do with how blood magic is learned.

Deztyn wrote...

- And again Anders comment to Merrill is a question, one he asks despite being present when she admits to making a deal with a demon. His comment to Fenris explicitly states that you MUST deal with a demon to USE blood magic. He is not proof you are right.

Anders asks Merrill if she learned blood magic on her own, and his comment to Fenris pertains to when a mage makes a deal with a demon.

Sten: No.

His conversation with Fenris pertains to Tevinter Mages using blood magic. He doesn't believe Fenris that they all do because he doesn't believe they'd all make deals with demons.

His comments to Merrill are almost certainly an incredulous joke because he is there on Sundermount when she explains she made a deal with a demon to learn blood magic.

Deztyn wrote...

-- And once again the Warden doesn't teach Anders blood magic. The warden doesn't even need to know blood magic to assign Anders that specialization. This is not proof you are right.

The Warden teaches Anders, which is noted in the dialogue between them that he's now a blood mage.

Sten: No

It's noted that he's now a blood mage. How he learns is not noted.