414 réponses à ce sujet

[Torax]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Magic involving blood, is not blood magic.
Magic powered by blood, is blood magic.

It is a difference the ignorant rarely cares to distinct between. Which is why the joinning, the phylacteries and Finn's ritual could all be VIEWED as blood magic, while in truth neither of them are.

Where's your proof that this is the case?

When Finn is confronted about needing Ariane's blood, he explains that the blood is a component for the spell but is not powering it. So he settles on "it's a gray area". Like a phylactery is a gray area if the blood inside is just a component for the tracking meanwhile the Lyrium infused into the vial actually would be powering it. Then it's not truly blood magic. When you use the vial of Ariane's blood what happens is Finn then casts a spell into the area you specify by his own will. There is no slitting of his wrists and the vial was in the player's hands and not his.

The joining is the same thing. The Circle prepares a special magical ceremony using Lyrium to prepare the components to then be used during the joining. How much the mages know about what they are preparing? Who knows. The Grey Wardens are a crafty lot.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Magic involving blood, is not blood magic.
Magic powered by blood, is blood magic.

It is a difference the ignorant rarely cares to distinct between. Which is why the joinning, the phylacteries and Finn's ritual could all be VIEWED as blood magic, while in truth neither of them are.

Where's your proof that this is the case?

You mean other than numerous comments throughout the game and made by writers on this forum? Even Finn says that his spell isn't actually blood magic, but since blood is involved, the Templars probably wouldn't care and kill him anyway.

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

When Finn is confronted about needing Ariane's blood, he explains that the blood is a component for the spell but is not powering it.

Finn makes this claim right before he asks The Warden not to reveal it to anyone, so apparently the Order of Templars will likely not share Finn's "perspective" on the issue.

Torax wrote...

So he settles on "it's a gray area".

Which he says right before asking The Warden to tell no one about the ritual.

Torax wrote...

Like a phylactery is a gray area if the blood inside is just a component for the tracking meanwhile the Lyrium infused into the vial actually would be powering it. Then it's not truly blood magic.

Gaider said the phylacteries can be viewed as blood magic at PAX, he didn't say they were a grey area at PAX.

Torax wrote...

When you use the vial of Ariane's blood what happens is Finn then casts a spell into the area you specify by his own will. There is no slitting of his wrists and the vial was in the player's hands and not his.

There's no slitting of the wrists with mind control, so does that mean it's not blood magic?

Torax wrote...

The joining is the same thing. The Circle prepares a special magical ceremony using Lyrium to prepare the components to then be used during the joining. How much the mages know about what they are preparing? Who knows. The Grey Wardens are a crafty lot.

The Joining involves Archdemon blood, darkspawn blood, and magic. If Gaider can state that phylacteries can be viewed as blood magic, I don't see how The Joining can be excluded from this.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 14 juin 2011 - 09:43 .

[The Baconer]

Speaking of Phylacteries...

Going by the Black Vials and the Arcane Warrior specialization, it seems Phylacteries can also hold souls, or entities. I wonder if these souls could be used for magical application, like spells or enchantments. Maybe some one can absorb the power of a soul, to empower their own abilities.

Could I be Shang Tsung in Dragon Age?

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

David Gaider never said the phylacteries were a grey area, he said they could be viewed as blood magic at PAX.

Which to a point is basically not arguing with even for example Finn's needs to find the lights. That blood as a component can be viewed as blood magic. Some spells moreso than others. Depending how the Littany was crafted it could be seen as Blood Magic. Keep in mind to some books to teach others about Blood Magic and parts of it could have been written by many including Adralla herself. There are many books the various locations where Tevinter was doing it's studies. Demons wouldn't have needed to teach. It would just be finding notes before the Templars do.

btw Lob keep in mind you are trying to just villify the Templars at the moment. I am not a supporter of them so don't try to use me as a stepping stone to some anger you have at how they view blood magic...

Modifié par Torax, 14 juin 2011 - 09:47 .

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Gaider said the phylacteries can be viewed as blood magic at PAX, he didn't say they were a grey area at PAX.

That is the point. It "can" be seen as it. Not "it is" Edit: or "it isn't". The grey comes from that seeing it as either can be seen as valid.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 14 juin 2011 - 09:53 .

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

btw Lob keep in mind you are trying to just villify the Templars at the moment. I am not a supporter of them so don't try to use me as a stepping stone to some anger you have at how they view blood magic...

I don't see how this comment is remotely accurate. This is a discussion about blood magic, not about the dichotomy between the mages and the templars. Then again, you're the same person who brought up both templars and mages at the Merrill thread when I discussed how Merrill would be perceived by the Dalish, so it's typical of you to once again bring this up.

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well Anders contradicts himself on the merging.


"We are one"


"I can't tell where he begins and I end."


Granted, this isn't a topic that he'd be an expert in. But I believe they are in fact separate beings in one body and could've been friends after the merging.

LOL...well, those statements are NOT contradictory, just so you know. 

I'll grant that Anders makes it clear he himself is confused on the nature of his merger with Justice.  But for them to have become friends after the merging, some of the writing from DA2 would also have to be edited, as he also indicates that when they merged, Justice underwent a dramatic change.  May not have been an instant change, but I've gathered that it happened so quickly that it caught Anders completely off-guard, suggesting that he knew Justice well from the outset.

I suppose we should get this back on topic, lol.  So...blood magic! 

Ok maybe not contradictory lol. Poor choice of words. But you see my point. And hmmm.... true enough. Ok he spent months in the Blackmarsh just getting to know Justice!


So.... how about that Merrill, the cutest blood mage who is actually good?

[The Baconer]

Herr Uhl wrote...
That is the point. It "can" be seen as it. Not "it is" Edit: or "it isn't". The grey comes from that seeing it as either can be seen as valid.

Point being it renders an objective statement like "When in truth, neither of them are" just as invalid.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So.... how about that Merrill, the cutest blood mage who is actually good?

Merrill is awesome.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So.... how about that Merrill, the cutest blood mage who is actually good?

Merrill is awesome.

Indeed


I  Merrill.

[Herr Uhl]

The Baconer wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
That is the point. It "can" be seen as it. Not "it is" Edit: or "it isn't". The grey comes from that seeing it as either can be seen as valid.

Point being it renders an objective statement like "When in truth, neither of them are" just as invalid.

For an objective truth to emerge, there has to be a common definition. I work from mine, which is that having blood aid the magic makes it blood magic. It cuts away a lot of the otherwise grey areas, like when using magic on blood is and isn't blood magic.

Though I assume people in world will argue about the semantics forever, just like how there is no clear definition of what a specie is to this day.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So.... how about that Merrill, the cutest blood mage who is actually good?

Merrill is awesome.

Indeed


I  Merrill.

What needs to happen is blood mage Hawke, Merrill, and Thaddeus Gigantus Crumbum the Third adventuring across the Free Marches on a quest for the enigmatic Xenon the Antiquarian.

[Deztyn]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

The implication from Origins was that certain abilities aren't rare or difficult to find information on. Spirit Healers might not be common but Wynne and Anders both start with that specialization as Circle mages. It's available to buy because the knowledge is easier to find than the rare or forbidden disciplines.

I'm not denying this. In fact, I wanted to say something else earlier, but forgot: that books of blood magic might just be rare to find in Ferelden. If one were in Tevinter, for instance, the situation could just be opposite.

And the blood magic manual only came in Awakening. My position is this: if all books in Awakening are not part of the game lore, you can not state with certainty that any books in Awakening are part of the game lore.

I'm not even debating what we find in Awakening. I agree with you, by the way. There isn't sufficient proof to say anything about learning blood magic from a book.

Unless, of course, WoG wants to step in and clarify.

WoG?

Word of God. If David Gaider for instance, stepped in and said "yes, this manual is a gameplay mechanic, but that manual exists in the story." we'd know for sure what was intended.

Agreed. It's pure gameplay there for the convenience of the player and says nothing about how the abilities would be learned in story.

Which abilities? Are you referring to Awakening again? My point is that I think all abilities we find in DAO are actually part of the story. It is just that the cheaper or easier to find - however you look at it - (at least in Ferelden) specializations can be learnt from manuals.

I was referring to all specializations that are already unlocked. The Warden and Companions don't need to learn them in story,  the player just has to spend the points how they see fit once they reach the appropriate level.

Yes, but you can still roleplay learning it from Zevran because it's part of the story, not just a part of gameplay.

Are you perchance saying that the Manuals of Spirit Healer and Ranger aren't part of the story? Or are you saying that one can hold back using the Assassin specialization in all playthroughs after the first until one learns it from Zevran? Or both?

The manuals are a game mechanic, and they're no longer available once the specialization is unlocked. So you can't say you bought the book in the storyline after the first time. But learning from Zev, Isabella, Morrigan, Alistair etc. is part of the storyline and it can be roleplayed on repeated playthroughs within the game if the player chooses.

Modifié par Deztyn, 14 juin 2011 - 10:25 .

[BigEvil]

LobselVith8 wrote...
What needs to happen is blood mage Hawke, Merrill, and Thaddeus Gigantus Crumbum the Third adventuring across the Free Marches on a quest for the enigmatic Xenon the Antiquarian.

I'd certainly buy that DLC. *wishes there was a big thumbs up smilie*

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So.... how about that Merrill, the cutest blood mage who is actually good?

Merrill is awesome.

Indeed


I  Merrill.

What needs to happen is blood mage Hawke, Merrill, and Thaddeus Gigantus Crumbum the Third adventuring across the Free Marches on a quest for the enigmatic Xenon the Antiquarian.

I'd probably buy that. But why not the Nexus Golem? And why would they look for Xenon? He's trapped in the Black Emporium.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 juin 2011 - 10:57 .

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

What needs to happen is blood mage Hawke, Merrill, and Thaddeus Gigantus Crumbum the Third adventuring across the Free Marches on a quest for the enigmatic Xenon the Antiquarian.

I'd probably buy that. But why not the Nexus Golem? And why would they look for Xenon? He's trapped in the Black Emporium.

I was thinking more along the lines of a quest at the behest of Xeon, and the Nexus Golem knows too much...

[Torax]

Well according to his Codex. Xenon hopes your riches will help him discover a way to restore his body. They can rebuild him. Make him stronger. Faster.

[TEWR]

We can rebuild him...... We have the technology.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 juin 2011 - 11:10 .

[The Baconer]

Torax wrote...

Well according to his Codex. Xenon hopes your riches will help him discover a way to restore his body. They can rebuild him. Make him stronger. Faster.

Sounds like a job for blood magic.

[LobselVith8]

The Baconer wrote...

Torax wrote...

Well according to his Codex. Xenon hopes your riches will help him discover a way to restore his body. They can rebuild him. Make him stronger. Faster.

Sounds like a job for blood magic.

Isn't this where you put on the shades for the Quip to Black?

[The Baconer]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Isn't this where you put on the shades for the Quip to Black?

I usually reserve such measures for puns but you may be on to something here.

[sphinxess]

Torax wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Magic involving blood, is not blood magic.
Magic powered by blood, is blood magic.

It is a difference the ignorant rarely cares to distinct between. Which is why the joinning, the phylacteries and Finn's ritual could all be VIEWED as blood magic, while in truth neither of them are.

Where's your proof that this is the case?

When Finn is confronted about needing Ariane's blood, he explains that the blood is a component for the spell but is not powering it. So he settles on "it's a gray area". Like a phylactery is a gray area if the blood inside is just a component for the tracking meanwhile the Lyrium infused into the vial actually would be powering it. Then it's not truly blood magic. When you use the vial of Ariane's blood what happens is Finn then casts a spell into the area you specify by his own will. There is no slitting of his wrists and the vial was in the player's hands and not his.

The joining is the same thing. The Circle prepares a special magical ceremony using Lyrium to prepare the components to then be used during the joining. How much the mages know about what they are preparing? Who knows. The Grey Wardens are a crafty lot.

This seems like a argument a university professor would make - when the ones holding the power to decide what blood magic is are saying  Blood + Mage = KILL IT!

[Torax]

sphinxess wrote...

Torax wrote...

When Finn is confronted about needing Ariane's blood, he explains that the blood is a component for the spell but is not powering it. So he settles on "it's a gray area". Like a phylactery is a gray area if the blood inside is just a component for the tracking meanwhile the Lyrium infused into the vial actually would be powering it. Then it's not truly blood magic. When you use the vial of Ariane's blood what happens is Finn then casts a spell into the area you specify by his own will. There is no slitting of his wrists and the vial was in the player's hands and not his.

The joining is the same thing. The Circle prepares a special magical ceremony using Lyrium to prepare the components to then be used during the joining. How much the mages know about what they are preparing? Who knows. The Grey Wardens are a crafty lot.

This seems like a argument a university professor would make - when the ones holding the power to decide what blood magic is are saying  Blood + Mage = KILL IT!

I'm sure we're all aware of their hypocracy and their need for control. Point is basically Finn pointed out something very particular. Blood was not powering the spell. So for example Adralla's special little craft which allows it's user to halt mind control spells. Now if Adralla needed blood to make it work. Would it have also then been blood magic and thus required to be destroyed? It was used to defend against Blood Magic afterall. Kept in the storage for how long because it was based on a former Blood Mage's studies to ward against the enemy. It's easy for anyone to play the gray lines while advocating and claiming to be polarized to one side. Politicians do it all the time. Why can't a fictional group that manipulates the words of a beloved dead woman to suit their needs at times. I'm sure some in the Chantry and the Templar's Order mean well. But others will manipulate. They are only human afterall.

Modifié par Torax, 15 juin 2011 - 12:46 .

[Mickespel]

Torax wrote...

sphinxess wrote...

Torax wrote...

When Finn is confronted about needing Ariane's blood, he explains that the blood is a component for the spell but is not powering it. So he settles on "it's a gray area". Like a phylactery is a gray area if the blood inside is just a component for the tracking meanwhile the Lyrium infused into the vial actually would be powering it. Then it's not truly blood magic. When you use the vial of Ariane's blood what happens is Finn then casts a spell into the area you specify by his own will. There is no slitting of his wrists and the vial was in the player's hands and not his.

The joining is the same thing. The Circle prepares a special magical ceremony using Lyrium to prepare the components to then be used during the joining. How much the mages know about what they are preparing? Who knows. The Grey Wardens are a crafty lot.

This seems like a argument a university professor would make - when the ones holding the power to decide what blood magic is are saying  Blood + Mage = KILL IT!

I'm sure we're all aware of their hypocracy and their need for control. Point is basically Finn pointed out something very particular. Blood was not powering the spell. So for example Adralla's special little craft which allows it's user to halt mind control spells. Now if Adralla needed blood to make it work. Would it have also then been blood magic and thus required to be destroyed? It was used to defend against Blood Magic afterall. Kept in the storage for how long because it was based on a former Blood Mage's studies to ward against the enemy. It's easy for anyone to play the gray lines while advocating and claiming to be polarized to one side. Politicians do it all the time. Why can't a fictional group that manipulates the words of a beloved dead woman to suit their needs at times. I'm sure some in the Chantry and the Templar's Order mean well. But others will manipulate. They are only human afterall.

It is not bloodmagic to use Adrallas scroll thou bloodmagic may have been part of it's creation. Bloodmagic was defenitly needed for testing purpuses during it's development. In DA2 one can choose to capture rather then kill the bloodmage Idunna and then later she send you a letter where she tells us that she repented her sins and impore Hawke to find and destroy Tharones tomes. Apperently the templars do not need to execute all bloodmages they find, they can choose to just inprison them. Adralla could herself been a captured rependant bloodmage or have had access to other such.