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[MinotaurWarrior]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...


I can never imagine that those books described how to learn it, or the Chantry would have had them destroyed. But the books might have encouraged apprentices to go and seek out that power for themselves.

The impression I got was that Jowan was nervous about how delayed his Harrowing was (because the alternative to a Harrowing is Tranquility), so he researched ways to increase his power, and found a bunch of books on the Tevinter, with some descriptions of their rituals. In the same way you might figure out the basics of making a bomb at home by reading about terrorists (I've picked up that fertalizer is often involved) he got the basics of it, and then experimented on his own sans-demon. The books were probably just histories and the like, not how-to-guides (because, judging by all the books Irving had collected on his desk, that'd be a lot of how-to guides).

At any rate, I'm not sure how it matters if one has to learn it from a demon or not, unless you think dealing with a demon is inherently an evil act. Which is a little silly. Personally, I think the risk for failiure is so high and the consequences for failing so great that in a lot of cases dealing with a demon not really worth it, and in the cases where it is, it should happen in strictly controlled enviroments. But inherently evil? I don't see it.

It matters because, as you said, dealing with demons is usually a mistake. If the only way to learn blood magic was through demonpact, I'd advise against it, because I'd just generally advise against demonpacting.

[MinotaurWarrior]

I figured he was envious of you because you were one of the few who weren't going to have your connection to the fade severed, but really, that's just my completely subjective interpretation.

I just think that it's really hard to keep this sort of knowledge out of books. I'm sure that I could learn all sorts of terrible skills from reading material intent to scare me about those skills. They were probably taking the DARE approach (sorry if you were never put through the DARE program, wikipedia it maybe?) and telling people about it's horrors, which had the side-effect of telling people what exactly those horrors are.

You can't tell someone "don't throw rocks at windows" without ensuring that they will be aware that you can totally throw rocks at windows. A book on Tevinter history might say, "and then the foul maleficar slit his wrists and cast his spell." Then Jowan could have figured, "oh, so FIRST you do the cutting, then the casting."

I also just think that blood magic is probably really simple. That's probably a key point we disagree on.

[MinotaurWarrior]

I think your underestimating the other means the Chantry has to control mages. They're rounded up, brainwashed from early childhood, and, presumably around the same time, addicted to lyrium potions. Imagine the sort of control you'd have as a combination parent / drug dealer / sole source of information. They also sever the emotions & magic of most apprentices, and only allow the others to live into adulthood if they prove that they can resist the temptation of (in the Circle of Ferelden at least) a pride demon. They don't really need to worry that much about little lines in books, and after once incident they show that they're perfectly willing to hide those books away.

As for Demons being the only source, I disagree based on a few pieces of evidence. First, Irving hides away all the books after finding out about Jowan, showing that he does believe they played at least some role in turning Jowan (though, I admit, it could simply be that they lead him to make a pact with demons). The second point is, Jowan had nothing to bargain with. He clearly wasn't possessed, he didn't let any demons into the world, he did absolutely nothing. Judging by the demon PCs can learn BM from in DA:O, demons aren't exactly charity workers, giving away cosmic power for free.

[dragonflight288]

Not to mention all the lore that quotes other sources of blood magic that aren't even related to demons.

[IanPolaris]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Not to mention all the lore that quotes other sources of blood magic that aren't even related to demons.

Not to mention that a bloodmage warden commander can TEACH Anders bloodmagic and in the actual dialog (and thus game lore) Anders comments on the irony of now being a maleficar after years of fighing such false accusations when he continually tried to escape from the tower.

-Polaris

[dragonflight288]

And thus it is proven that demons aren't the only way a mage can learn to specialize in blood magic.

[MichaelFinnegan]

IanPolaris wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Not to mention all the lore that quotes other sources of blood magic that aren't even related to demons.

Not to mention that a bloodmage warden commander can TEACH Anders bloodmagic and in the actual dialog (and thus game lore) Anders comments on the irony of now being a maleficar after years of fighing such false accusations when he continually tried to escape from the tower.

-Polaris

 I couldn't exactly tell by what he said. I wonder though if the irony was that he was made a blood mage against his character, given how the player can simply assign the specialization to him. Maybe it didn't have anything to do with the "teaching," but a humorous remark about how the gameplay itself is designed.

[IanPolaris]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

 I couldn't exactly tell by what he said. I wonder though if the irony was that he was made a blood mage against his character, given how the player can simply assign the specialization to him. Maybe it didn't have anything to do with the "teaching," but a humorous remark about how the gameplay itself is designed.

No, it's clearly lore.  Anders complains that eventually the Templars would have "branded him a maleficar, true or not" and killed him on the spot.  If you gave Anders the Blood-Magic specialization, you can respond, "Well, you are a maleficar."

At this point Anders snorts and says, "I am now and don't think the irony is lost on me."  This is the game clearly stating that the only reason Anders is a Maleficar is because the bloodmage Warden-Commander taught him.  This is clearly an valid game-lore example of someone learning Bloodmagic without a demon, and one example is all I need to disprove the thesis.

-Polaris

[llandwynwyn]

Talking about DAA, I think you can learn BM using a book in that game.
Unless I'm going mad, I'm pretty sure I saw one for sale

[MichaelFinnegan]

IanPolaris wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

 I couldn't exactly tell by what he said. I wonder though if the irony was that he was made a blood mage against his character, given how the player can simply assign the specialization to him. Maybe it didn't have anything to do with the "teaching," but a humorous remark about how the gameplay itself is designed.

No, it's clearly lore.  Anders complains that eventually the Templars would have "branded him a maleficar, true or not" and killed him on the spot.  If you gave Anders the Blood-Magic specialization, you can respond, "Well, you are a maleficar."

At this point Anders snorts and says, "I am now and don't think the irony is lost on me."  This is the game clearly stating that the only reason Anders is a Maleficar is because the bloodmage Warden-Commander taught him.  This is clearly an valid game-lore example of someone learning Bloodmagic without a demon, and one example is all I need to disprove the thesis.

-Polaris

What you say is possible and even makes sense. And I see my own mistake. I was assuming Anders was averse to blood magic in DA:A just as he was in DA2; I need to play DA:A to know for sure. So, perhaps I'm mistaken about it.

[MichaelFinnegan]

llandwynwyn wrote...

Talking about DAA, I think you can learn BM using a book in that game.
Unless I'm going mad, I'm pretty sure I saw one for sale

There was a book for sale from which the Warden could learn blood magic. Some think that it was just a "game mechanic" and not part of the lore/story. I'll let them defend that position. As for me, I'm not entirely sure about it.

[dragonflight288]

Anders is adverse to blood magic in Awakening. But he can learn it and make light of it once he's a maleficar.

[MichaelFinnegan]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Anders is adverse to blood magic in Awakening. But he can learn it and make light of it once he's a maleficar.

He is? Well, I don't know what to say. Maybe not as vehemently as he does in DA2 perhaps (seeing how he is under the influence of Justice in DA2)?

[NaclynE]

BurstAngel75 wrote...

I just wanted to know if I'm the only one who WILL NOT touch blood magic? "Being evil is fun" is the biggest excuse people use, but I can never bring myself to play an evil character. Tried if for a few hours but all I wanted to do was stabbed the so call "hero" in the back. Not very satisfying.
People talk about blood magic as if it is nothing more that a tool to be used as long as your careful. But we are talking about life, Blood represent/is LIFE, to think that blood magic is a tool ends up using Life as a tool, whether it is your own or someone elses. Which leads to objectifying people as nothing more than a tool to use. (ie slavery)
I think the writers are very subversive with this game, seducing us into thinking that blood magic is okay (Merill) while showing examples of just how inheritly evil it truly is. People in other discussions stated that the grey warden's ritual and other examples show that blood magic can be used for good, but those are examples of "acts of desperation", not "Good". After all, from what I can tell from Ferldan's history, blood magic was the root cause of the corruption of the ancient gods, the creation of the darkspawn and the plight of the mages. I have yet to play Awakening so I don't know what answers it has provided.
So I tend to cringe at the idea of using blood magic, after all using it means that life has no value and a mage can do what ever they please.

As much as I love and adore Merri, she is the only one I ended up as a rival.

Wow this makes a interesting debate.

All I can say is and I am trying to remember if it was Anders or Jowan who said 'Blood magic is not all that evil, it's how you use it'. I feel like if you use blood magic on a limited scale you can at least do some good more than evil. Blood magic is just merely seen as evil because you can use infinite magic to the point you can monstrasize yourself which yeah I do see where you're comming from. Merril however tries to control her blood magic use evil though it gets the best of her at times which she isn't aware of at times it seems because she gets all timid or split personality ("I love you. I shouldn't of said that.") like. The key factor to being into blood magic I say isn't really shooting yourself to primarly be evil but to use it out of control reasons. I actually played and finished a female mage into blood magic that was a positive figure as opposed to negative figure in Dragon Age 2. However I admit I have finished a mage into blood magic in Origions that was into blood magic that yeah was mean. Also in Dragon Age Awakening I actually make Anders a Blood mage and I still sky rocket my relationship with him. Funny thing is He loses the blood mage thing in 2 for some reason.

I think it was Duncan who said 'we do even have some blood mages that are grey Wardens' so not all blood mages are bad. They are just depicted that way since they can tap in for infinite power. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

In absolutely no way does the game say that the Warden-Commander taught Anders blood magic. None at all. All that can be extracted from that quote is that Anders was either commandeed or allowed to learn blood magic when he joined the Wardens. So that instance of blood magic being learned is not in favor of the "demons aren't required"-theorists.

[LobselVith8]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Considering that Anders can learn the spec no matter if the Warden-Commander is a blood mage or even a mage at all, it doesn't stand to reason that he or she was the one to teach Anders his blood magic, nor does the game explicitly say that either. The Warden says that Anders is a blood mage, Anders laughs and cracks a joke about it and that is all.
So far we have some lore suggesting that you can learn it from other sources than demons, lore stating that you cannot, and only clear examples of mages learning from demons. I'm sorry, but until WoG tells me I'm wrong or I get a definite evidence of mages learning it elsewhere, I'm going to keep a button on blood magic only being taught by demons.

There isn't any lore stipulating that you can only learn it from demons, since the Tevinter version is that Dumat taught them, and Bioware's Ages article mentions that some scholars dispute that version and think the Arlathan elves taught the Magisters blood magic (which seems to be supported by Merrill's claim that blood magic is part of the People's history). We have Anders asking Merrill if she learned blood magic by accident (and he's never spoken about blood magic in jest since he takes the issue seriously), and the Magi Origin infers that Jowan learned it from the books on blood magic in the library that were removed. Even Finn uses a ritual that involves blood magic (one that he weakly argues is a "grey area" before pleading with The Warden not to reveal it to anyone), and Finn read about the ritual.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

In absolutely no way does the game say that the Warden-Commander taught Anders blood magic. None at all. All that can be extracted from that quote is that Anders was either commandeed or allowed to learn blood magic when he joined the Wardens. So that instance of blood magic being learned is not in favor of the "demons aren't required"-theorists.

Absolutely it does.  Anders did not know bloodmagic before being recruited by the Warden Commander, and he does afterwards with no demons involved.  Ergo, Bloodmagic can be learned without the aid of a demon.  It's the perfect counterexample.  You can't appeal to game-play/lore seperation either since Ander's own conversaion (Lore) directly confirms the above point.

-Polaris

Edit:  Queen of Stuff, if an explicit counterexample isn't good enough to show that bloodmagic doesn't have to be taught by a demon, then nothing is going to suffice.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 19 juin 2011 - 03:52 .

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[Uccio]

Blood magic was the weakes form of battle magic of all the choises mage could have. Most of it would only work agains living targets.

[LobselVith8]

Ukki wrote...

Blood magic was the weakes form of battle magic of all the choises mage could have. Most of it would only work agains living targets.

Templars can nullify ordinary magic, which is how Meredith is able to disable the Qunari mage from using his magical ability towards the end of Act II. Blood magic can't be nullified by the templars.

[Uccio]

^yes but there were only few actual uses for blood magic in combat. Spending points to it doesn´t pay up since you can get more attack/combat spells from other magic branches. Also getting the actually usefull blood magic options available you had to spend too many points before hand.