414 réponses à ce sujet

[katling73]

I've never used blood magic for any of my mages but that's more because of role playing factors than anything else since I've used Merrill's blood magic on more than one occasion. Basically I end up constructing a backstory for my Hawke and the most common reason for why she doesn't use blood magic is not because she thinks it's evil but because everyone else thinks it's evil.

One thing my Hawke does want to prove is that a mage can be an apostate and not be a blood mage or an abomination. She dislikes the Chantry intensely but she's realistic enough to acknowledge that the Chantry has done a wonderful job of brainwashing the general populace about magic and blood magic. She feels that even if she's using it for good, if she uses blood magic she simply reinforces the Chantry's words: "All apostates are blood mages. Blood magic is evil. Therefore all apostates are evil." She knows there's not much logic behind that but when has religion ever been about logic. The only way to counter didactic cant is to stand as a living example that the cant is wrong. She is an apostate. She is not a blood mage. Therefore how can she, a mage, an apostate, possibly be evil according the Chantry's own words.

That's why she gets so frustrated when mages turn to blood magic and demons. She's all: "You're not helping matters, idiots! You're just proving the stupid Chantry right and making sure they have all the evidence they need to keep a stranglehold on mages with the Circle. If you lot would keep your haemophiliac urges in check, we might be able to start organising some cogent arguments against the Circle! Morons! Why am I always surrounded by morons!" Then she waves her hands around and stamps off to the Hanged Man to drink with Isabela.

(Using haemophilia in its etymological form as 'love of blood', not referencing the disease.)

[EmperorSahlertz]

The real problem with blood magic is the potential for misuse. It is a powerful tool. Too powerful even. A man who can control minds simply can't be trusted, no matter how upright he is. For all you know, he is the one forcing you to think of him in a postitive way, without you even knowing.

Other than the obvious mind control problem, there is the fact that at some point a blood mage may need more blood than his own body can supply. What then?

Then we got the societal consequences of using blood magic. I can, to a point, udnerstand why an apostate would use blood magic, but for a Circle mage to do so, is the ultimate show of selfishnes a Circle Mage can do. Not only does he know that it is highly illegal, he threatens the lives of all his fellows by his actions. He knows that the Templars may call for an annulment if he is discovered, and that they judge the Circle's corruption may have been too wide spread, and yet the Circle Mage persists.

[dragonflight288]

What if a circle mage is about to get raped by a templar? And that templar happens to be a very high rank, and since the chantry believes all mages should barely be tolerated, if not outright killed entirely, nothing you do will get you any justice. Will you use blood magic to defend yourself? Or will you allow the rape to happen?

[EmperorSahlertz]

You know that a Templar isn't allowed that right? Nor does the Chantry "barely tolerate" mages, nor do they have any desire to kill all mages. On the contrary the Chantry have a healthy distrust of magic, but see its value, and seek to control it.
And do you actually think that using blood magic in this case will make the situation any better? Using blood magic in this case may be the worst solution you could possibly come up with. Better to just use normal magic, or plain old physical strength to struggle your way free.
In any case you are putting forth an unfair example, since Templars are by law not allowed to harm a Circle Mage unless they are deemed corrupt. So you put forth an example that is flawed from the premise.
You could say the same about the Elves who sought sanctuary with the Qunari. Was it okay for them to take the law within their own hands, and murder a man, since they shouldn't expect justice any time soon? Was it okay for them to murder the man, or should they just have beaten him to within an inch of his life?

[TEWR]

what if you were about to see a thug murder a little old lady for a couple sovereigns? Would it be ok to use blood magic and mind control on the thug then? Or should you just let her die because you view mind control as "always evil and should not be trusted"

Your notion that a person who can control minds can't be trusted brings this to my mind: What about the Jedi? They have the power to influence a person's mind, yet people trust them. Blood Magic's Mind Control can be used for good too, but it should only be used in dire circumstances where it is absolutely needed.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 juin 2011 - 02:46 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Your notion that a person who can control minds can't be trusted brings this to my mind: What about the Jedi? They have the power to influence a person's mind, yet people trust them. Blood Magic's Mind Control can be used for good too, but it should only be used in dire circumstances where it is absolutely needed.

Star Wars never cared about having a shred of realism. You'd bet people would be as suspiciuous about jedi. Some of the good games where Lucas isn't directly involved had that even.

How would you make sure that mind control is used only in the most dire circumstances?

[Giggles_Manically]

I did not really care about the issue of mind control until I played Divinity II: Ego Draconis.

Its scary to realize that you can take a deep dark secret from someone.
That you can take advantage of merchants.
Blackmail people left and right.

That they cant even know what you have done.
Its almost godly how powerful that makes a person who can read another's mind.

[Addai]

BurstAngel75 wrote...

I think your missing the point I'm trying to make.
Blood is Life
To use blood is to use Life
Life is a gift to be cherished not to be subjugated for Power.
Therefore blood magic is inheritly evil.
Donating blood is sharing blood to perpetuate someone elses life. It is freely given, not taken by force or violence (and blood magic is violent, I mean you got to stab somebody for it to work). Donating blood is an act of love for your fellow man, Blood magic is about power over life itself.

This seems rather superstitious.  If we borrow Einstein for a moment, there is no "original" energy, everything is recycled.  So you sustain life based on using up resources from other places- food, light, burning things for warmth.  Life always comes from death and vice versa.  Blood is a renewable resource and not inherently any more precious or "holy" than breath or any other substance needed to sustain life, unless you're superstitious about it.

For a mage, mana is also part of their life energy.  The codex suggests it's borrowed from the Fade and you wouldn't die without it, but mages who've used it appear to be exhausted and weak.  Mages slowly poison themselves with lyrium to boost their mana.  So how is use of mana any less inherently evil?

Further, magic can be ethically used, and can be used as an act of love for fellow man or simply for survival- protecting and defending yourself and others.  Asserting that magic drawn from mana is inherently more ethical than magic drawn from any other place, I just don't get that.

[BigEvil]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

what if you were about to see a thug murder a little old lady for a couple sovereigns? Would it be ok to use blood magic and mind control on the thug then? Or should you just let her die because you view mind control as "always evil and should not be trusted"

Your notion that a person who can control minds can't be trusted brings this to my mind: What about the Jedi? They have the power to influence a person's mind, yet people trust them. Blood Magic's Mind Control can be used for good too, but it should only be used in dire circumstances where it is absolutely needed.

What if the little old lady was actually an evil witch and the thug had seen her killing children and was just trying to stop her? Don't be fooled by old people!

Personally I'd say the mind control aspect of blood magic is the most dangerous and should only be used by someone trying to be good in the direst of circumstances. The ability to control the minds of others seems like it would be the most slippery slope of the blood magic area. It would be rather easy to start relying on it too much and then you're mind controlling the local baker to give you fresh baked cookies for free and everything goes to hell. Saving the lives of others when there are no other options available would be one use, but it should certainly be the last resort.

I've always felt the Jedi are a bad example of mind control and trust. The Jedi only seem to be trusted because of plot armour and a weird notion that regardless of circumstance and evidence the Jedi are ultimate good in the Star Wars universe. As guardians of peace and justice they screw up a lot and cause a lot of harm, or through inaction allow a lot of harm.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Your notion that a person who can control minds can't be trusted brings this to my mind: What about the Jedi? They have the power to influence a person's mind, yet people trust them. Blood Magic's Mind Control can be used for good too, but it should only be used in dire circumstances where it is absolutely needed.

Star Wars never cared about having a shred of realism. You'd bet people would be as suspiciuous about jedi. Some of the good games where Lucas isn't directly involved had that even.

How would you make sure that mind control is used only in the most dire circumstances?

Oh god you've been converted to worshipping ponies and unicorns..... what happened to you man?

Though I guess some allowances can be made for Geralt style ones, but still what happened?


Anyway, I can't really say. I don't want to go into a long dissertation, mainly because I have a vague idea in my head. Does that mean it couldn't be used only in the most dire circumstances? No, it just means I'm drawing a blank on what to say. Would it be hard to implement into society? Definitely, but it could probably be done.


I've never played any Star Wars games. Well.... one for the SNES, and it was a load of ****.  Other than that, none.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 juin 2011 - 03:29 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Oh god you've been converted to worshipping ponies and unicorns..... what happened to you man?

Evolution.

Anyway, I can't really say. I don't want to go into a long dissertation, mainly because I have a vague idea in my head. Does that mean it couldn't be used only in the most dire circumstances? No, it just means I'm drawing a blank on what to say. Would it be hard to implement into society? Definitely, but it could probably be done.

I actually agree that mind control hsouldn't be discarded, it's a potent too,l. I am almost sure that the Ancient Tevinter magistrate had magical counter measures, otherrwise they wouldn't have been an oligharchy.

I personally am all for making blood magic a very elitist and esoteric school of magic. With Templar like warriors and mages who know how to counter it.

[The Dubious]

Originally was against using Blood Magic (mostly due to my moral compass) in Origins I didn't touch the ability, but in DA2 I tried it out and it was a pleasant surprise (meaning rather fun/entertaining to use). I only use two abilities from DA2's Blood Mage tree again that moral compass, never used Sacrifice and Blood Slave- instead used Grave Robber and Hemorrhage.

Reasons (or something rather)...
-Not using Sacrifice: for me it's a mostly a moral issue, aside from latter consequences such as a comrade dying- I like to keep my party strong and healthy as anyone would (I think).

-Not using Blood Slave: another moral issue, it is tempting- but doesn't fit my character's personality (or mine).

-Use of Grave Robber: yea, sure it's desecrating a corpse (I would assume some would say), but why let the blood go to waste- besides most of the people Hawke run into are criminals, it's not like they are going to get an honorific burial.

-Use of Hemorrhage: well... might as well ask why use Tempest (can't shake that scene from the Green Mile movie), get cleaved by a Warrior or be used as a pin cushion for Rogues.

The first time I played Blood Mage in DA2 I laughed- seeing Hawke impale himself was well worth it (ha-ha). Typically I like the Spirit Healer skill, unfortunately I didn't like it in DA2 and Force Mage didn't appeal to me- tried it a few times and it was... no just not fun for me (though with Blood Mage I like it better), so that left Blood Magic which I surprisingly liked the best (out of the three specializations).

I don't know I have little to no opinion on Blood Magic itself, just the individuals who misuse it like Idunna.

[lobi]

Only Blood spell I have seen to controll another is one that makes the subject turn violent towards it's fellows. A crude and inefficient spell that will cause death after the short period it runs for. I doubt any subtle control that would be required in a political sense is even possible.

[The Baconer]

On Topic: As others have said, Blood Magic is not evil. Heck, even the Chantry finds it quite useful, regardless of their official stance.

[EmperorSahlertz]

There is the litany of Adralla. But you can't expect every last man woman and child to carry one of those around with them at all times.

The Jedi are trusted becuase they have shown through the millenia that they can handle their powers responsibly. At first there was great distrust between the galaxy and the jedi. The republic even lead a war against the jedi. But through the ages the galaxy has grown to trust jedi because they show a remarkable disciplin when using their powers. Something the mages of Thedas often lack. Besides, the Jedi a extremely rare, only numbering around 9.000 during the Jedi Purge. That is not a lot of Jedi in a galaxy with a population well over the trillions. The mages of Thedas on the other hand is far more common than the Jedi ever were.

[The Baconer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Jedi are trusted becuase they have shown through the millenia that they can handle their powers responsibly. At first there was great distrust between the galaxy and the jedi. The republic even lead a war against the jedi.

I imagine the relationship between mages and the mundanes is at this stage.

But through the ages the galaxy has grown to trust jedi because they show a remarkable disciplin when using their powers. Something the mages of Thedas often lack.

Their remarkable discipline isn't some side-effect that comes with their powers. A Jedi untrained in the ways of restraint can turn 'bad' just like mages in DA can. Usually with just as, if not more, devastating consequences. The largest advantage Jedi have over DA mages is in the way they are trained, and how they are regarded in the galactic community. I guess not having people tell you that you're garbage and that your powers are a curse your whole life goes a long way.

Modifié par The Baconer, 10 juin 2011 - 04:15 .

[Incantrix]

Addai67 wrote...

BurstAngel75 wrote...

I think your missing the point I'm trying to make.
Blood is Life
To use blood is to use Life
Life is a gift to be cherished not to be subjugated for Power.
Therefore blood magic is inheritly evil.
Donating blood is sharing blood to perpetuate someone elses life. It is freely given, not taken by force or violence (and blood magic is violent, I mean you got to stab somebody for it to work). Donating blood is an act of love for your fellow man, Blood magic is about power over life itself.

This seems rather superstitious.  If we borrow Einstein for a moment, there is no "original" energy, everything is recycled.  So you sustain life based on using up resources from other places- food, light, burning things for warmth.  Life always comes from death and vice versa.  Blood is a renewable resource and not inherently any more precious or "holy" than breath or any other substance needed to sustain life, unless you're superstitious about it.

For a mage, mana is also part of their life energy.  The codex suggests it's borrowed from the Fade and you wouldn't die without it, but mages who've used it appear to be exhausted and weak.  Mages slowly poison themselves with lyrium to boost their mana.  So how is use of mana any less inherently evil?

Further, magic can be ethically used, and can be used as an act of love for fellow man or simply for survival- protecting and defending yourself and others.  Asserting that magic drawn from mana is inherently more ethical than magic drawn from any other place, I just don't get that.

I agree. To me, blood magic is just magic like any other. It's no worse then setting a curse of death on someone or absorbing a dying bodies life force.

Blood is Life
To use blood is to use Life
Life is a gift to be cherished not to be subjugated for Power.
Therefore blood magic is inheritly evil.

Not really. For one, most of the time you are usiign your own blood to power your spells, so it's a matter of how much you value your own life. That's not really up to me to decide, but I bet if you had to save someone and a good mind control spell could have saved the situation you wouldn't be so quick to dispel the use of blood magic. All in all, like all magic, it depends on how you use it. I know my Hawke (and his Blood witch cousin Amel) used blood magic frequently and some would say the darkest of magics like corpse reanimation, entropy spells, and spirit magic but were heroes.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The real problem with blood magic is the potential for misuse. It is a powerful tool. Too powerful even. A man who can control minds simply can't be trusted, no matter how upright he is.

 
Merrill is a blood mage, and there are people who trust her. There are Grey Wardens who use blood magic, and I'd put trust in members of an order dedicated to saving the world.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

For all you know, he is the one forcing you to think of him in a postitive way, without you even knowing.

For all you know, the person could be dubious for a number of reasons that have nothing to do with blood magic.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Other than the obvious mind control problem, there is the fact that at some point a blood mage may need more blood than his own body can supply. What then?

You mean like the blood magic ritual with Jowan and Arlessa Isolde, where going into the Fade would save Connor from the Desire Demon?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then we got the societal consequences of using blood magic. I can, to a point, udnerstand why an apostate would use blood magic, but for a Circle mage to do so, is the ultimate show of selfishnes a Circle Mage can do. Not only does he know that it is highly illegal, he threatens the lives of all his fellows by his actions.

I don't see it as selfish. Uldred's mage supporters turned to blood magic because they wanted to emancipate the Circle of Ferelden from the Chantry. Maybe a Circle mage thinks it's better to die on his feet than live on his knees.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He knows that the Templars may call for an annulment if he is discovered, and that they judge the Circle's corruption may have been too wide spread, and yet the Circle Mage persists.

Meredith called the Right of Annulment because of an act no Circle mage had anything to do with, so it's clearly not even an issue of the behavior of Circle mages since Gaider addressed that it was perfectly legal for Meredith to commit genocide against the Circle of Kirkwall.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You know that a Templar isn't allowed that right?

The problem is that mages having no basic rights in this oppressive system almost guarentees that such monstrous behavior will transpire against mages, which is why we have templars like Ser Alrik and Ser Kerras.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Nor does the Chantry "barely tolerate" mages, nor do they have any desire to kill all mages.

Wynne certainly didn't seem to think so when she provided her argument for why she was going to argue against the Libertarian position at Cumberland.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

On the contrary the Chantry have a healthy distrust of magic, but see its value, and seek to control it.

Healthy? How is preaching that mages are cursed to the point where mages are killed because Andrastians kill them over the death of a baby or a drought a "healthly distrust" of magic?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And do you actually think that using blood magic in this case will make the situation any better?

If it was the difference between life and death, I doubt the mage would care.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Using blood magic in this case may be the worst solution you could possibly come up with.

It can't be any worse than a system that Anders and a pro-mage Hawke can view as slavery.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Better to just use normal magic, or plain old physical strength to struggle your way free.

But using magic that the templars can nullify - as Meredith "nullified" the abilities of the Qunari mage in Act II - could mean certain death.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

In any case you are putting forth an unfair example, since Templars are by law not allowed to harm a Circle Mage unless they are deemed corrupt. So you put forth an example that is flawed from the premise.

If that was true, then the Circle of Kirkwall wouldn't have dealt with Meredith ordering the mass execution of the Circle of Kirkwall because "the people will demand blood." She was appeasing the mob, not condemning the Circle to death because of their behavior.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You could say the same about the Elves who sought sanctuary with the Qunari. Was it okay for them to take the law within their own hands, and murder a man, since they shouldn't expect justice any time soon? Was it okay for them to murder the man, or should they just have beaten him to within an inch of his life?

I have no issue with the death of a rapist, especially when it means he won't have the opportunity to force himself on another woman. You may disagree, of course.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There is the litany of Adralla. But you can't expect every last man woman and child to carry one of those around with them at all times.

Which is a canned scroll written by a blood mage!  Yes, that's right, Adralla was a bloodmage (read the Codex entry) and it seems very likely that the actual spell (and not the scroll) used open bloodmagic.

-Polaris

[Wulfram]

The codex says "Adralla of Vyrantium dedicated her life to the study of blood magic—the academic study, rather than the practice" which says to me that she wasn't a blood mage. Though I doubt people like Meredith would recognise the distinction.

(and oddly the account in the codex is totally different to that given by Wynne)

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

The codex says "Adralla of Vyrantium dedicated her life to the study of blood magic—the academic study, rather than the practice" which says to me that she wasn't a blood mage. Though I doubt people like Meredith would recognise the distinction.

(and oddly the account in the codex is totally different to that given by Wynne)

If you have knowledge of blood magic then you ARE a bloodmage.  That codex entry was written by the Chantry which is why they try to futz the issue, but Adralla by all Chantry legal standards WAS a maleficar.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

I think Adralla was a blood mage in name only. She probably considered herself one but as the entry says didn't actually practice the arcane art. Doesn't mean she wasn't one.



damn.... ninja'd

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The codex says "Adralla of Vyrantium dedicated her life to the study of blood magic—the academic study, rather than the practice" which says to me that she wasn't a blood mage. Though I doubt people like Meredith would recognise the distinction.

(and oddly the account in the codex is totally different to that given by Wynne)

If you have knowledge of blood magic then you ARE a bloodmage.  That codex entry was written by the Chantry which is why they try to futz the issue, but Adralla by all Chantry legal standards WAS a maleficar.

-Polaris

So because I have knowledge of KKK rituals, I am a KKK? Damn... That logic is so dumb that I wouldn't expect it comming from anyone else than you.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The codex says "Adralla of Vyrantium dedicated her life to the study of blood magic—the academic study, rather than the practice" which says to me that she wasn't a blood mage. Though I doubt people like Meredith would recognise the distinction.

(and oddly the account in the codex is totally different to that given by Wynne)

If you have knowledge of blood magic then you ARE a bloodmage.  That codex entry was written by the Chantry which is why they try to futz the issue, but Adralla by all Chantry legal standards WAS a maleficar.

-Polaris

So because I have knowledge of KKK rituals, I am a KKK? Damn... That logic is so dumb that I wouldn't expect it comming from anyone else than you.

He said by Chantry standards Adralla is a maleficar. Jowan was considered one by Gregoir for just skimming over a book on blood magic, but he had never actually used it until his escape plan was foiled.