414 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

By chantry standards, if you know and/or use magic that has blood as some component of the magic, then it is bloodmagic, and the chantry is notoriously closeminded about any other interpretation. That means by any reasonable Chantry legal standard, Adralla WAS a bloodmage (and it's likely why Wynne game the bull-story about Adralla being a "bard"....since that is almost certainly the story peddled to outsiders).

If you want to argue the standard is stupid, I won't dispute that. The chantry does a lot of stupid things.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

And exactly where do you garner that this is the standard the Chantry holds? Quite the contrary seems to be true, since multiple Circle mages seem to know about blood magic and its workings, but aren't condemned to death.

[MichaelFinnegan]

BurstAngel75 wrote...

I just wanted to know if I'm the only one who WILL NOT touch blood magic?

I have given Merrill that specialization because she is a blood mage. She uses it sparingly, though (as in, it's not set up in her tactics). The fight with Sir Varnell was one instance where she found herself forced to use it.

"Being evil is fun" is the biggest excuse people use, but I can never bring myself to play an evil character. Tried if for a few hours but all I wanted to do was stabbed the so call "hero" in the back. Not very satisfying. People talk about blood magic as if it is nothing more that a tool to be used as long as your careful.

Which people? Anyway, I see blood magic as a way to augment Merrill's powers, for difficult combat situations.

And, what do you mean by "as long as you're careful"? Careful with your own life, or careful about not hurting others? The former is obvious. As for the latter, the thing with Merrill's specialization is that it doesn't come with any "sacrifical" spells, so her intent with blood magic is more or less clear to me.

But we are talking about life, Blood represent/is LIFE,

Are you referring verbatim to the codex entry? In any case, blood magic uses "life force" as opposed to "Fade force." Life to me implies a binary - either you have it or you don't, so I don't think it is the right term to use in this context.

With that said, the question now simply becomes: whose life force?

to think that blood magic is a tool ends up using Life as a tool, whether it is your own or someone elses. Which leads to objectifying people as nothing more than a tool to use. (ie slavery)

Magic itself is a tool. So, the real question with regard to blood magic is whether you'd use the life force of others or not. I do not ever intend to, and Merrill cannot - because she hasn't (perhaps intentionally) learnt how to.

I think the writers are very subversive with this game, seducing us into thinking that blood magic is okay (Merill) while showing examples of just how inheritly evil it truly is.

I don't think it's subversion. It's more about showing both sides of the story. And I don't think Merrill's example clearly demonstrates that it isn't a wicked art - because she doesn't seem to understand what she's dabbling with, given her fiasco in the Fade. Her focus is to "discover" the old ways - there is no guarantee that she is on the right path.

Now, the wickedness of blood magic might stem from the fact that it can give a real boost to one's magic powers (just like lyrium, which by the way is controlled on the surface by the Chantry), which might lead to its potential misuse. And with how some of its spells - making or sacrificing slaves - can be used to do harm unto others.

Regarding the tearing of the Veil, I think the codex entries are a bit vague. It is not clear to me whether use of any kind of blood magic actually tears the Veil, or if it is just the sacrifical spells - ones that involve controlling the minds of others. For instance, codex entry "Blood Magic: The Forbidden School" only says that blood magic allows, not that it always results in the tearing of the Veil.

People in other discussions stated that the grey warden's ritual and other examples show that blood magic can be used for good, but those are examples of "acts of desperation", not "Good".

I agree that what gray wardens do is actually an act of desperation. The use of blood in the ritual however doesn't imply evil, as far as I could tell.

After all, from what I can tell from Ferldan's history, blood magic was the root cause of the corruption of the ancient gods, the creation of the darkspawn and the plight of the mages. I have yet to play Awakening so I don't know what answers it has provided.

I think you mean Thedas' history. Why do you think blood magic was the root cause of corruption of the Old Gods and/or creation of the darkspawn?

So I tend to cringe at the idea of using blood magic, after all using it means that life has no value and a mage can do what ever they please.

So, is a cut to your throat preferable to a cut to your palm? Arguments could be made for the use of one's own blood in self-defense (to preserve one's life - not to let go of it), more so in desperate cases, and especially since the Chantry seems to control lyrium trade. And that a mage can do something does not imply that he/she will do it.

As much as I love and adore Merri, she is the only one I ended up as a rival.

So, did you not give her the blood magic specialization?

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 10 juin 2011 - 09:44 .

[Jugo616]

Blood is just a bodily fluid. There is nothing more "sacred" about it then it is about about ******, semen or saliva.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And exactly where do you garner that this is the standard the Chantry holds? Quite the contrary seems to be true, since multiple Circle mages seem to know about blood magic and its workings, but aren't condemned to death.

Adralla didn't know "about" bloodmagic.  She did groundbreaking research IN bloodmagic by the Chantry's own admission.  Saying she's not a bloodmage makes as much sense as claiming that a physics reseacher is not a "real" physicist because he doesn't work at the LHC.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

In the COUNTERING of blood magic. By your logic the man making a vaccine is also a disease-breeder. Or a man who tries prevent crimes by studying their causes, a criminal.

And it is the other way around than your example. Working at the LHC does not by definition make you a physicist. The same way that studying blood magic, does not make you a blood mage.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

In the COUNTERING of blood magic. By your logic the man making a vaccine is also a disease-breeder. Or a man who tries prevent crimes by studying their causes, a criminal.

And it is the other way around than your example. Working at the LHC does not by definition make you a physicist. The same way that studying blood magic, does not make you a blood mage.

If you know how to use blood magic then you ARE a blood mage at least by Chantry standards.  Certainly the Chantry has killed mages just for reading texts on bloodmagic.

-Polaris

Edit PS;  The only way that Andralla could learn how to counter bloodmagic w/;r/t mind control was decades of research and presumably experimentation (lest she wouldn't know if the spell worked) OF working blood magic.  The fact she was able to do those experiments successfully means she had to be a bloodmage no matter how you slice it.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 10 juin 2011 - 10:50 .

[TEWR]

I agree with IanPolaris. It's why pharmaceutical companies test their products.


Experimentation and test runs are the only way to know if what you think works actually works. Otherwise, you're hoping for a really good case of sheer dumb luck.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I can make basic repairs to a car, that does not make me a mechanic. I know how to kill a man, that does not make me a murderer. Knowing how blood magic works, and actually using it is very different. I can't speculate on how she conducted her experiments, nor am I saying that she certainly weren't a  blood mage, she was from Tevinter after all IIRC. I'm saying that to claim her a blood mage for certain is an assumption, and that she might actually not have been a blood mage.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 10 juin 2011 - 11:10 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Filament wrote...

What was the purpose of bringing up Adralla to begin with?

Something about Chantry hypocrisy yaddayadda...

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 10 juin 2011 - 11:11 .

[IanPolaris]

Filament wrote...

What was the purpose of bringing up Adralla to begin with?

Adralla is a great chantry hero against the evil Tevinter Bloodmages...which shows the height of Chantry Arrogance since Adralla was by training and temprement.....a Tevinter Bloodmage.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I can make basic repairs to a car, that does not make me a mechanic. I know how to kill a man, that does not make me a murderer. Knowing how blood magic works, and actually using it is very different. I can't speculate on how she conducted her experiments, nor am I saying that she certainly weren't a  blood mage, she was from Tevinter after all IIRC. I'm saying that to claim her a blood mage for certain is an assumption, and that she might actually not have been a blood mage.

There is no way you could design a new car engine, however, without indepth knowledge of an Automotive Engineer.  The same applies to Adralla and bloodmagic.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

I could design a way to sabotage a car engine with but the simplest of insights to an engines workings. The same goes for Adralla and her Litany.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 10 juin 2011 - 11:15 .

[dragonflight288]

The use of blood in any spell, or any ritual, like the phylacteries to track down mages, qualifies as blood magic, in the chantry standards. It's pretty much lore, regardless of how much you want to deny it. The chantry uses blood magic and then kills any mage who may have any knowledge on the subject...unless they happen to be well liked by the chantry. Like Adralla.

Face it, she designed a spell to prevent blood magic domination. In order to truly design and perfect it, she would have to practice blood magic and dominating the minds of others. No way around it. Bloodmage.

[TEWR]

we weren't saying she's evil though. Emperor Sahlertz and IanPolaris are locked in a bitter struggle on whether she was a blood mage or not.

The stakes are high and the world is on the brink of collapse. No one is safe.....



Hey I just figured out the plotline for DA3!

[IanPolaris]

Filament wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Filament wrote...

What was the purpose of bringing up Adralla to begin with?

Adralla is a great chantry hero against the evil Tevinter Bloodmages...which shows the height of Chantry Arrogance since Adralla was by training and temprement.....a Tevinter Bloodmage.

-Polaris

Well, on the topic of the thread... okay, so she's a blood mage. That doesn't mean she's evil.

There I agree.  In fact I think it's highly unlikely that Adralla was evil.  However, it does show the height of Chantry Arrogance and Hypocrisy.

-Polaris

[dragonflight288]

I never said she was evil either. I was simply proving that blood magic can be used for good, blood mages don't have to be insane mass murderers. She did a great service that helped us out in Origins centuries later, but she couldn't have done it without blood magic. I apologize if it came out different.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

we weren't saying she's evil though. Emperor Sahlertz and IanPolaris are locked in a bitter struggle on whether she was a blood mage or not.

The stakes are high and the world is on the brink of collapse. No one is safe.....



Hey I just figured out the plotline for DA3!

Of course the world is at stake when Polaris and I debate. Otherwise it wouldn't be fun.

[TEWR]

my comment was actually addressed to Filament Dragonflight, but due to the damn BSN logout bug made it show up after your post, so it's my fault really.


Well, the BSN's fault, but all I can do is shake my fist angrily at it and shout "Damn thee!!!"


edit: people keep posting before me and now I'm afraid my comments will be misunderstood


though that's why God invented the "Quote" button

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 juin 2011 - 11:32 .

[dragonflight288]

lol.

[BurstAngel75]

Blood used to fuel magic is blood magic and using blood as a regent in a spell isn't. That does make alot of sense and it would also justify the binding of mages in the circle and the grey warden's joining ritual.
Merrill is a blood mage in my games because that is how she is introduced to us as being one. A person does not need to be evil to use evil. But it will corrupt you no matter what. That is what makes Merrill a tragic character, everyone sees her going down a very dangerous and wrong path and does what they can to save her from herself and of course she listens to no one.

[dragonflight288]

....I have a very long rant that the elves pretty much destroyed themselves with absolutely no help from Merrill, but that's for another thread.

And Finn in witch hunt says using a dalish elf's blood in a ritual to find the Lights of Arlathan in order to find the eluvians. That's blood magic. The phylacteries used by the templars is blood magic. Gaider even said so. A warrior becoming a reaver using dragon's blood is blood magic.

Anything involving blood is blood magic in the Chantry's view. Regardless of use. Adralla was a bloodmage who used used blood magic to write the Litany in order to prevent the mind domination of blood mages.

I can easily see blood magic corrupting people, because it offers so much power, and when you have access to such shortcuts and power, it will always be an option for you. I can see it corrupting you if you start thinking using it for such and such reason is worth it, then maybe it could be worth for such and such reason.

The same applies to political power, as is the case with Sister Petrice. Instigating riots and hate-crimes because she could.

[Serpieri Nei]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

All the codex entries we have regarding the teaching of blood magic says to contact a demon. I have zero reason to believe the one Jowan read was any different.
You do obviously, because that is all you are basing your arguements on. If what he read was to contact a demon, pretty much the entire arguement of demons not being required crumbles to dust.

Blood magic was the first form of magic in Thedas. According to legend, it was taught to Archon Thalsian, founder of theTevinter Imperium, by Dumat, the Old God of Silence. Historians argue on this point, suggesting the Imperium's mages may have learned it from the elves of Arlathan. 

http://dragonage.wik...iki/Blood_magic

Blood mage is one of the mage specializations in Dragon Age: Origins[/i] and Dragon Age: Origins - Awakening[/i]. A blood mage is a mage who employs dark rites, originally taught to mortals by demons, in order to access more powerful magic. A blood mage must be willing to sacrifice his/her own life force or that of others in order to wield this power.

http://dragonage.wik..._Mage_(Origins)

Demons were not the first nor will they be the last to know of blood magic.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 11 juin 2011 - 12:41 .