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[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

....I have a very long rant that the elves pretty much destroyed themselves with absolutely no help from Merrill, but that's for another thread. 

PM it to me, I'd like to read it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 juin 2011 - 12:48 .

[sphinxess]

Merrill's adopted clan were <fur sur> not the brightest lamps in the forest

[dragonflight288]

PM it to me, I'd like to read it.

Sent it...took me roughly 25 minutes to write.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Oh and popular belief is truth now? Then I guess mages are a threat to everyhting around them, yes?
Nothing in canon support the Old Gods teaching it, everything supports demons teaching it.

And the ritual described in the scrolls of banastor does not require blood magic, it requires your blood. There is a difference, which many on this forum fail to grasp between the two.

(and quickly about Anders: When he makes that remark he is obviously being sarcastic, and therefore the credibility of waht is said is suspect)

Why do you argue he was being sarcastic? Anders isn't known for his sarcasm when it comes to blood magic. As for your claim that there's nothing in canon regarding Dumat teaching blood magic, Serpieri pointed out that the codex on the Old Gods addresses that Archon Thalsian was believed be have been taught blood magic by the Old God Dumat.

[NakedKana]

I, personally, will touch touch blood magic I (or my Hawke rather) generally encourage others to do the same.

I don't think blood magic is inherintly evil, but it IS highly dangerous to use. Blood magic will invariably bring you face to face with the demons of the fade, and they WILL tempt you. You can take a look at the blood mages in game and count how many of them loose thier **** or get possesed and see if it doesn't vastly out number those who don't. I'm sure the practice has it's uses, but to me, the risks greater than the reward and that's neverminding all the people who will happily hunt you down for using it.

[Fast Jimmy]

Blood magic is often used in place of lyrium, as it holds a lot of power. It also has many rites and spells that require the entire life blood of a victim (see DA:O and Isolde), making it a path that may involve human sacrifice.

So why use it? Because it makes you instantly a more powerful, destructive mage. And, as the Demotivation.com poster says... "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely. But It Rocks Absolutely, Too."

[The Baconer]

BurstAngel75 wrote...

Blood used to fuel magic is blood magic and using blood as a regent in a spell isn't. That does make alot of sense and it would also justify the binding of mages in the circle and the grey warden's joining ritual.

It makes sense when calling a spade a spade is inconvenient for public relations.

Modifié par The Baconer, 11 juin 2011 - 08:38 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

BurstAngel75 wrote...

Blood used to fuel magic is blood magic and using blood as a regent in a spell isn't.

That is somewhat how I see it, too; although, if you're thinking of the Joining as a spell, we disagree. I think of it merely as a ritual, the exact details of which, at the moment, are unknown. And, remember, the Joining actually requires lyrium and blood from two tainted sources - making it something different.

That does make alot of sense and it would also justify the binding of mages in the circle and the grey warden's joining ritual.

You seem to have simply disassociated "the binding of mages" and "the Joining" from blood magic, thereby making them both, what, less evil? I, on the other hand, judge such things by their motivations, consequences, the effect on the lives of those involved, etc., not based on the thinking that there must be something inhrently good or evil about them.

Merrill is a blood mage in my games because that is how she is introduced to us as being one. A person does not need to be evil to use evil. But it will corrupt you no matter what. That is what makes Merrill a tragic character, everyone sees her going down a very dangerous and wrong path and does what they can to save her from herself and of course she listens to no one.

Your note on Merrill's particular tragedy doesn't tell me anything more about blood magic than I didn't know of before - which is simply that blood magic can and not must lead to harm. And, besides, her tendency to take a demon for its word tells me something about her naivite, too. As I said earlier, to me she doesn't seem to understand clearly the nature of the path she's taken. (I must admit though that I haven't witnessed her storyline since I'm still somwhere in Act 3, on my very first playthrough).

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Oh and popular belief is truth now? Then I guess mages are a threat to everyhting around them, yes?
Nothing in canon support the Old Gods teaching it, everything supports demons teaching it.

And the ritual described in the scrolls of banastor does not require blood magic, it requires your blood. There is a difference, which many on this forum fail to grasp between the two.

(and quickly about Anders: When he makes that remark he is obviously being sarcastic, and therefore the credibility of waht is said is suspect)

Why do you argue he was being sarcastic? Anders isn't known for his sarcasm when it comes to blood magic. As for your claim that there's nothing in canon regarding Dumat teaching blood magic, Serpieri pointed out that the codex on the Old Gods addresses that Archon Thalsian was believed be have been taught blood magic by the Old God Dumat.

Anders is known for his sarcasm, in DA2 he has however taken a turn to be often more serious of note. However his tone during this particular comment is obviously sarcastic, which is why I say so. Because he is. Quite simple really.
And the thing about Dumat is also extraordinarily simple. It is a legend (it even clearly says that it is refering to a legend). Not bound in truth, but in what was an exciting tale at the fireplace at the inn, many years ago. Serpieri even went on to link the blood mage description, which clearly states that blood magic was taught by demons.

[Torax]

Emp you would be just as much assuming the Archon was taught by a demon instead of Dumat. So you can't discredit Lob's point on that codex but an assumption yourself. It's like you both are just going to argue as ego boasting.

edited to add.

Michael Finnegan,

Keep in mind Merrill doesn't  see demons as different from any other spirit. That is the true difference. She considers that spirits and demons are all "spirits" which is absolutely true. The Chantry called certain ones demons. Can argue she is too trusting of some. But I would say some like Anders can be too trusting of Spirits. Justice basically becomes a demon himself. Spirits are all individuals. Merrill stated that and it appears true. Some lust and some do not. So actually Merrill's insight to spirits in general is far more logical and pure than even the chantry will allow. Any spirit can be destructive. Just not demons. It just depends on what the spirit is after and how far they'll go to get it.

Modifié par Torax, 11 juin 2011 - 12:10 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why do you argue he was being sarcastic? Anders isn't known for his sarcasm when it comes to blood magic. As for your claim that there's nothing in canon regarding Dumat teaching blood magic, Serpieri pointed out that the codex on the Old Gods addresses that Archon Thalsian was believed be have been taught blood magic by the Old God Dumat.

Anders is known for his sarcasm, in DA2 he has however taken a turn to be often more serious of note.

Odd that you seem to be the only person who interpreted his scene that way.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

However his tone during this particular comment is obviously sarcastic, which is why I say so. Because he is. Quite simple really.

It's obviously not since you seem to be the only person arguing that it was sarcastic.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And the thing about Dumat is also extraordinarily simple. It is a legend (it even clearly says that it is refering to a legend). Not bound in truth, but in what was an exciting tale at the fireplace at the inn, many years ago. Serpieri even went on to link the blood mage description, which clearly states that blood magic was taught by demons.

The Old Gods codex entry only addresses Dumat as the originator of blood magic:

"Dumat, the Dragon of Silence.

Zazikel, the Dragon of Chaos.

Toth, the Dragon of Fire.

Andoral, the Dragon of Slaves.

Urthemiel, the Dragon of Beauty.

Razikale, the Dragon of Mystery.

Lusacan, the Dragon of Night.

There were seven Old Gods, great winged dragons that were said to rule over the ancient world. The Chantry maintains that they are responsible for the original sin, that they turned humanity away from its true creator through deceit. Humanity's faith faltered, and thus the Maker turned away from the world--but not before trapping the Old Gods in eternal prisons beneath the earth as punishment.

Scholars assume that the Old Gods must indeed have been real at one point, but most agree that they were likely actual dragons--ancient high dragons of a magnitude not known today, and impressive enough to frighten ancient peoples into worshipping them. Some even claim that these dragons slumber as a form of hibernation, not as a result of the Maker's wrath.

Regardless of the truth, legend maintains that even from their underground prisons, the Old Gods were able to whisper into the minds of men. The Archon Thalsian, first of the Magisters, who claimed to have contacted the Old God Dumat, used the blood magic Dumat taught to him to attain incredible power in Tevinter and declare himself the ruler of an Empire. In return, he established the first temples worshipping the Old Gods, and the dragons became equated everywhere with imperial power.

To date, four of the Old Gods are said to have risen as corrupted archdemons: Dumat, the first and most powerful, was slain at the Battle of Silent Fields. Zazikel fell at the Battle of Starkhaven, Toth died at the Battle of Hunter Fell, and Andoral was felled by Garahel, the legendary Grey Warden, at the Battle of Ayesleigh. The archdemons have been identified only after years of argument among scholars, and to this day it is unclear whether the archdemons were truly Old Gods and not simply dragons. All that is known is that the darkspawn hunt for them deep underground. If they are truly the Old Gods, as many scholars believe, then we have only three Blights remaining. When all the Old Gods have risen and been slain, however, what will happen? Will the Blights end forever, and humanity earn forgiveness from the Maker at last? We shall see.

--From The Old Gods Rise Again by Sister Mary, Chantry scholar, 8:50 Blessed."

Once again, you can't keep claiming there's no lore providing an alternative to demons as the inception for blood magic.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 11 juin 2011 - 12:24 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Torax wrote...

Michael Finnegan,

Keep in mind Merrill doesn't  see demons as different from any other spirit. That is the true difference. She considers that spirits and demons are all "spirits" which is absolutely true. The Chantry called certain ones demons.

"Beyond the Veil: Spirits and Demons" mentions this. The difference being the particular emotion that those spirits seek for, being segregated under benevolent and malevolent. I remember Merrill mentioning it once to Anders - although, I don't remember the exact words. I rarely use Anders, so I might also be missing some conversations.

Can argue she is too trusting of some.

This was my point; although I don't think it is just about trust, because she seems to understand that all spirits are dangerous. She does not understand all the implications of dealing with a demon and she overestimates her power to resist its temptations - as shown by what happens in the Fade during Act 2. To me, all this goes back to her single-minded desire to know more about her past, which seems to have blinded her to other dangers.

But I would say some like Anders can be too trusting of Spirits. Justice basically becomes a demon himself.

I'll take that as meaning Justice becomes violent. It may just be that the full implication of what it means to be "just" wasn't clear to Anders. Still trying to think how "vengeance" actually signifies "justice." Perhaps justice to oppressed mages at all costs?

Spirits are all individuals. Merrill stated that and it appears true. Some lust and some do not. So actually Merrill's insight to spirits in general is far more logical and pure than even the chantry will allow. Any spirit can be destructive. Just not demons. It just depends on what the spirit is after and how far they'll go to get it.

I think we need to see more about these benevolent spirits. So far, there has only been Justice and that Spirit of Faith that Wynne had. But, yes, you might be right here.

If you mean by being an individual that each spirit has a distinct identity, I don't know. This would mean that each has its own distinct agendas, needs, and so on. Perhaps the classification of spirits into this and that merely has to do with the one dominant emotion that they lust for, not discounting all other aspects of personality they might have.

In any case, although Merrill seems to know that all spirits are dangerous, she clearly underestimates her own power to resist one.

[Torax]

It means various spirits be them benevolent or demons have their unique personalities. For example the Sloth Demons you come across in the games. The one in the Magi Origin has no interest in your character. Apparently when talking to Justice in Awakening they all don't even know what happens if they die. Which means that some may even talk about that. Each have their own personal goals and attitudes. In other words she is right to say that the Chantry is wrong to think spirits fall into an exact mold. That would be like thinking every individual fits an exact mold. Every spirit or being basically has it's own experiences, personality traits and so on.

Further evidence of this. Spirits were not made by the maker to aim or aspire to a certain emotion of mortals. Each spirit chooses the one that fascinates them. The Chantry decided to call specific emotions as evil and thus called them Demons. The Elves did not do this. They just called them all spirits. Humans called them Demons so now the dalish will as well.

In regards to saying merrill underestimates them. That is being overly critical of her. Everyone of your companions besides Justice in the fade can be swayed by a demon. I think it more like a game mechanic than a character feed. Varric will turn on you. Fenris will turn on you with the promise of power to destroy his oppressors. Aveline will turn on you to get her dead husband back. The only difference is Merrill seemed to feel the most guilt over the situation...

[MichaelFinnegan]

Torax wrote...

It means various spirits be them benevolent or demons have their unique personalities. For example the Sloth Demons you come across in the games. The one in the Magi Origin has no interest in your character. Apparently when talking to Justice in Awakening they all don't even know what happens if they die. Which means that some may even talk about that. Each have their own personal goals and attitudes. In other words she is right to say that the Chantry is wrong to think spirits fall into an exact mold. That would be like thinking every individual fits an exact mold. Every spirit or being basically has it's own experiences, personality traits and so on.

Further evidence of this. Spirits were not made by the maker to aim or aspire to a certain emotion of mortals. Each spirit chooses the one that fascinates them. The Chantry decided to call specific emotions as evil and thus called them Demons. The Elves did not do this. They just called them all spirits. Humans called them Demons so now the dalish will as well.

You make very good points. It is a good perspective to have.

I just went over some of the conversations she has with Anders, and she does think that spirits of the Fade are like  "people from a different realm, like Orzammar." I missed this in the game. I am yet to play Awakening, though.

And I just remembered how demons form some kind of hierarchy (of power, apparently) within the Fade, indicating perhaps a crude social structure. In DAO, the sloth demon, for instance, was heading that section of the Fade.

One thing does seem certain - whatever is in the Fade seem like crude copies of what exists in the mortal realm; indicating that spirits might lack imagination.

In regards to saying merrill underestimates them. That is being overly critical of her. Everyone of your companions besides Justice in the fade can be swayed by a demon. I think it more like a game mechanic than a character feed. Varric will turn on you. Fenris will turn on you with the promise of power to destroy his oppressors. Aveline will turn on you to get her dead husband back. The only difference is Merrill seemed to feel the most guilt over the situation...

I think the situation in the Fade is kind of representative of what mages are subjected to, ever so often. And even though I have disagreements with how the Chantry subjugates mages, robs them of their freedom, and so on, I think that mages have to have a greater will to resist temptations. And Merrill even realizes the dangers of dealing with demons - she just forgets everything as soon as she listens to the demon's offer. And even though she did express guilt about it later, I need to see what exactly happens in Act 3, whether she learnt something from this experience. Because from what others told me, she seems to continue on the same track.

I did two or three runs of the Fade to see how my companions would behave. The greatest surprise I had was actually with Fenris. He even accused me later on, saying that it was all my fault because it was I who took him to the Fade. I might have missed Aveline though, but it was clear that unless I only took Anders, all others were going to fall prey.

EDIT: Even though I didn't explicitly state it earlier, I believe that the Fade sequence is actually connected very much with the story, and not just a game mechanic as you say. To me, the characters falling victims to demons' offers just means that all the characters have some inherent weakness. Aveline's case just shows that she hasn't come to terms with her husband's death; Merrill's eagerness to go there (which she expresses at the start itself) implies that she is very curious to know what the Fade looks like, just like her curiosity to know about her peoples' past; and even Fenris' initial hesitation to enter the Fade merely shows that he's not so sure about his willpower.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 11 juin 2011 - 04:59 .

[Torax]

Point was just that from a story telling aspect they all turn but justice. Though Justice will fight you if you agree to work with the demon.

Majority respond to the Pride demon. Only Aveline & Isabela can fall prey to the desire demon. And it's a priority above that about which is chosen.

Merrill is always picked first for the pride demon no matter who you take. Isabela will be picked before Aveline on the Desire Demon. It's been a while but I think the order was something like Merril > Fenris > Varric in regards to the pride demon. Of course Sebastian is not a part of the equation since he refuses to go.

[MichaelFinnegan]

About the order, one could interpret it to mean the weak minded get picked first, but it might as well be arbitrary. I always went to the pride demon first, so not sure if going to the desire demon with Aveline/Isabella and Merrill would result in Aveline/Isabella getting seduced first; or whether Merrill will always be picked (by the pride demon). And also I didn't see at any time two team mates getting seduced; it seemed to be just one.

I'll check this later - I might have a save.

[Torax]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

About the order, one could interpret it to mean the weak minded get picked first, but it might as well be arbitrary. I always went to the pride demon first, so not sure if going to the desire demon with Aveline/Isabella and Merrill would result in Aveline/Isabella getting seduced first; or whether Merrill will always be picked (by the pride demon). And also I didn't see at any time two team mates getting seduced; it seemed to be just one.

I'll check this later - I might have a save.

The order I listed is the order the bosses will pick them in.

The pride demon will always pick Merrill if she is there. If she is not then the 2nd to be picked will be Fenris. If neither of them are there and Varric is then he is selected. If Merrill, Fenris & Varric are not in your group? Then the demon does not choose anyone. The demon can only choose 1 person.

The Desire Demon selects Isabela before Aveline. Probably for that extra show to the player that you can't quite trust her. so for example if your group is Merrill, Varric and Isabela? Then Varric will be there to help you fight Isabela after you've taken down the pride demon.

Modifié par Torax, 11 juin 2011 - 06:59 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

That part I understood. I was talking about another "what if" scenario. What if I went to the desire demon first? And I had Isabella and Merrill in my party (no third companion). Does the desire demon pick Isabella? Or will the desire demon not pick anyone and Merrill will get picked by the pride demon, when I go to it next? So is there an order between pride and desire demons?

That would then establish something like: Merrill > Isabella > Fenris > Varric > Aveline...

[MichaelFinnegan]

Never mind. It appears I can lose two party members to temptation, one to each demon. I was assuming I'd lose only one (irrespective of the party makeup) when I'm in the Fade.

[Torax]

yes basically the each demon has it's checks for specific companions. Like candidates.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Yes. There is no reason to link those two demons in the manner I was suggesting, now that I think about it.

[Torax]

I tend to always head to the right instead of left in a dungeon in a game I'm playing. Habit I never got rid of. For better or worse.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Is that pride demon to the left or right, then?

[Torax]

Pride is the one to the right and desire is to the left from the entrance.

Modifié par Torax, 11 juin 2011 - 08:51 .