414 réponses à ce sujet

[MichaelFinnegan]

Well, we have something in common. I always picked the pride demon first. Not sure if this is true for every thing I do - now I guess I'll never find out. :-|

[Jugo616]

Christianity conciser pride to be the biggest of sins, ancient greeks concidered it to be the highes of virtues. Good and evil is just words. They are make believe. A human concept. Blood magic is not good nor evil. Life is not good or evil. It is no more sacred then death.
My warden learned blood magic out of the scientific curiosity. My Hawke learned it because it brings the power he needs to deal with everything. There is nothing wrong with it.

[Chugster]

BurstAngel75 wrote...

I think your missing the point I'm trying to make.
Blood is Life
To use blood is to use Life
Life is a gift to be cherished not to be subjugated for Power.
Therefore blood magic is inheritly evil.
Donating blood is sharing blood to perpetuate someone elses life. It is freely given, not taken by force or violence (and blood magic is violent, I mean you got to stab somebody for it to work). Donating blood is an act of love for your fellow man, Blood magic is about power over life itself.

Being religious is seen as a generally good thing, to be christian is to be good...so to speak..so...

you want to have a think about how many people have died because of religion over the last 2000 years?

There is no intrinsic good or evil....no god or satan...just humans and their intentions

[WhiteKnyght]

BurstAngel75 wrote...

I just wanted to know if I'm the only one who WILL NOT touch blood magic? "Being evil is fun" is the biggest excuse people use, but I can never bring myself to play an evil character. Tried if for a few hours but all I wanted to do was stabbed the so call "hero" in the back. Not very satisfying.
People talk about blood magic as if it is nothing more that a tool to be used as long as your careful. But we are talking about life, Blood represent/is LIFE, to think that blood magic is a tool ends up using Life as a tool, whether it is your own or someone elses. Which leads to objectifying people as nothing more than a tool to use. (ie slavery)
I think the writers are very subversive with this game, seducing us into thinking that blood magic is okay (Merill) while showing examples of just how inheritly evil it truly is. People in other discussions stated that the grey warden's ritual and other examples show that blood magic can be used for good, but those are examples of "acts of desperation", not "Good". After all, from what I can tell from Ferldan's history, blood magic was the root cause of the corruption of the ancient gods, the creation of the darkspawn and the plight of the mages. I have yet to play Awakening so I don't know what answers it has provided.
So I tend to cringe at the idea of using blood magic, after all using it means that life has no value and a mage can do what ever they please.

As much as I love and adore Merri, she is the only one I ended up as a rival.

I use blood magic sometimes. Its a powerful tool if nothing else. Plus the only difference between blood magic and normal magic is the power source. With enough lyrium a normal mage could probably use mind domination too.

That whole "To use blood magic you must look a demon in the eye and accept his deal" thing is a load of crap. There are no demons anywhere when I use it.

Plus the Chantry is hypocritical when it comes to blood magic anyway. How do you think they use their phylacteries? Blood to the magic baby!

[themonty72]

(Blood magic, blood magic, where do you get this blood magic) Orsino says.

Modifié par themonty72, 11 juin 2011 - 10:32 .

[dragonflight288]

I always thought of the whole demons tempting your companions as this, they tempt the companion who has more of their attribute. Isabella has more desires than Aveline, and since Aveline hasn't yet come to terms with her husband, obviously wishes him back. Isabella....speaks for herself.

Merrill I can see having pride in herself, her training to resist demons, her heritage, and what she wishes to accomplish. She wants to make the elves something to be proud of again. Not just second class citizens or homeless wanderers.

Fenris has a great deal of pride when it comes to magic in general. He believes magic itself is evil, and all mages are a very taint. He sees magic as the source of every single one of his problems. Him being offered power, the ability to fight mages on even footing, something a very powerful pride demon can offer, he can't resist it.

I haven't actually seen Varic be tempted by the Pride demon since I usually have Merrill or Fenris in my party.

[Deztyn]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

Didn't anders imply that the very basic bit of blood magic, aka casting from hitpoints, could be learned by accident? When he talked to merril he made it seem like mages could innately use their blood instead of lyruim.

yes he did. I would've brought Anders' mention of it up but I think Emperor Sahlertz has said on a few threads before how we can't trust Anders' word on that, and I don't want to get into that debate again.

But I did say something similar to what Anders said a while back.

Anders is clearly not a reliable source. I don't see why this should even be up for debate.

He makes another statement about using blood magic that contradicts his comments to Merrill. He can not believe learning blood magic requires "looking a demon in the eye and accepting it's deal" and also believe that Merrill learned it on accident. One of those has to be wrong. Anders is lying, mistaken, Cuckoo for Coco Puffs or perhaps just being sardonic, since IIRC he can be in your party when Merrill admits to dealing with a demon and still makes that comment in banter later.

Modifié par Deztyn, 11 juin 2011 - 11:27 .

[DPSSOC]

BurstAngel75 wrote...
I just wanted to know if I'm the only one who WILL NOT touch blood magic? "Being evil is fun" is the biggest excuse people use, but I can never bring myself to play an evil character.

Well here is the source of your problem.  Tell me what is evil about using your blood to fuel a spell as opposed to your mana?  What about that act makes it more evil?  Anything?  You object to the extension of this practice (taking blood from others) and I will give you that's a mighty slippery slope, but the decision to go that far with it is on the mage not the magic.

Blood magic is a tool, a remarkably dangerous one but a tool all the same.  It is the person using it that is good or evil.

Can proudly say I've played multiple Mages with the Blood Mage spec in DAO (none in DA2 just yet) and never resorted to taking blood from my allies to replenish my own.

[TEWR]

Deztyn wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

Didn't anders imply that the very basic bit of blood magic, aka casting from hitpoints, could be learned by accident? When he talked to merril he made it seem like mages could innately use their blood instead of lyruim.

yes he did. I would've brought Anders' mention of it up but I think Emperor Sahlertz has said on a few threads before how we can't trust Anders' word on that, and I don't want to get into that debate again.

But I did say something similar to what Anders said a while back.

Anders is clearly not a reliable source. I don't see why this should even be up for debate.

He makes another statement about using blood magic that contradicts his comments to Merrill. He can not believe learning blood magic requires "looking a demon in the eye and accepting it's deal" and also believe that Merrill learned it on accident. One of those has to be wrong. Anders is lying, mistaken, Cuckoo for Coco Puffs or perhaps just being sardonic, since IIRC he can be in your party when Merrill admits to dealing with a demon and still makes that comment in banter later.

or it's possible that what he meant was anyone can stumble upon the power of blood magic, but to know how to wield it accurately and safely usually requires making a deal with a demon (unless a book details how)

I think in Act 1 we can count him as reliable because Justice hasn't had too profound of an effect on his persona just yet. But beyond that is when he starts to deteriorate into paranoid.

[dragonflight288]

Hm. Very possible. Anything he says after his quest in Act 2 I take with a grain of salt.

[Sarielle]

The OP is setting up straw men in the first post before people had even responded. I'm shocked you guy sput this much effort into it.

[Deztyn]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

Didn't anders imply that the very basic bit of blood magic, aka casting from hitpoints, could be learned by accident? When he talked to merril he made it seem like mages could innately use their blood instead of lyruim.

yes he did. I would've brought Anders' mention of it up but I think Emperor Sahlertz has said on a few threads before how we can't trust Anders' word on that, and I don't want to get into that debate again.

But I did say something similar to what Anders said a while back.

Anders is clearly not a reliable source. I don't see why this should even be up for debate.

He makes another statement about using blood magic that contradicts his comments to Merrill. He can not believe learning blood magic requires "looking a demon in the eye and accepting it's deal" and also believe that Merrill learned it on accident. One of those has to be wrong. Anders is lying, mistaken, Cuckoo for Coco Puffs or perhaps just being sardonic, since IIRC he can be in your party when Merrill admits to dealing with a demon and still makes that comment in banter later.

or it's possible that what he meant was anyone can stumble upon the power of blood magic, but to know how to wield it accurately and safely usually requires making a deal with a demon (unless a book details how)

I think in Act 1 we can count him as reliable because Justice hasn't had too profound of an effect on his persona just yet. But beyond that is when he starts to deteriorate into paranoid.

Uh. It IS in Act I. His first or second banter with Fenris: "You know, to use blood magic you must look a demon in the eye and accept his offer. "

To use blood magic.

To USE blood magic.

Not to wield it accurately or effectively. To use it. No "usually," no "sometimes." He makes a statement that can only be interpreted one way. That to use blood magic you must deal with a demon.

Compare that with his dialogue with Merrill:

"So, when you first did blood magic, it was... just an accident, right? You cut yourself and realized the power? You didn't actually deal with a demon?"

Here he's questioning. He's asking if it's possible she learned it on accident. He's not stating that you can learn blood magic without a demon as a fact. IMO he's just incredulous that Merrill of all people is a blood mage and made a deal with a demon. He's not seriously asking if that's how she learned.

Regardless, Anders conflicting dialogue makes him an unreliable source. Either he doesn't actually know how blood magic is learned, or one of his comments is a lie/jest. You can't just choose to believe that one of his comments is correct and the other wrong when both are made around the same time and he hasn't learned anything new in between making those comments.

Modifié par Deztyn, 12 juin 2011 - 05:50 .

[TEWR]

you're giving the word "use" a very narrow definition.


And I know they're both in Act 1. I'm choosing to believe that both are right. There's a difference.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 juin 2011 - 05:59 .

[Sajuro]

My view is that you are killing nearly everyone you meet, if you use blood magic to kill them they were just as dead as if you killed someone with your sword or daggers or arrows or non blood magic. What is evil is when you use the blood of other people, but it is also evil when you use a sword to force people to do things against their will, besides whether they are swords or daggers or maces or even bows, if you are using a weapon in the way it was meant to be used (against someone else) you are spilling blood and you are taking their lives.

[LobselVith8]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

About the order, one could interpret it to mean the weak minded get picked first, but it might as well be arbitrary.

I think "Night Terrors" is ridiculous in how companions betray Hawke with a few lines of dialogue. Everyone will succumb except for Hawke and Anders, and at least Anders has the excuse of being an abomination while the protagonist is never forced to succumb to temptation because... why, exactly? If it's setting up the idea that no one can resist, then why can Hawke? It doesn't really make any sense that even if Hawke isn't a mage who was trained by Malcolm and went into the Fade before with him, he's still able to resist while everyone else is railroaded by the demands of the plot.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

Didn't anders imply that the very basic bit of blood magic, aka casting from hitpoints, could be learned by accident? When he talked to merril he made it seem like mages could innately use their blood instead of lyruim.

yes he did. I would've brought Anders' mention of it up but I think Emperor Sahlertz has said on a few threads before how we can't trust Anders' word on that, and I don't want to get into that debate again.

But I did say something similar to what Anders said a while back.

Anders' isn't wrong in thinking it can be learned by accident, and we know from Dragon Age Origins that Jowan learns blood magic from books in the library and the Orlesian Warden can learn blood magic from a book, and historically we have scholars debating whether the Tevinter Magisters learned blood magic from the Old God Dumat (as Tevinter history states) or the Arlathan elves. The Joining, the phylacteries, and Finn's ritual can be viewed as blood magic, and none of those situations require a demon to be involved. Finn's blood magic ritual is something he learned about, after all. Even if we ignore Anders' question to Merrill about whether she learned it by accident or not, there's enough evidence to show blood magic doesn't require deals with demons in order to learn it.

[Silfren]

BurstAngel75 wrote...

wastelander75 wrote...

BurstAngel75 wrote...

The joining is an act of desperation not an inheritly "good" act in and of itself. It's like the devil coming to while your dying and making an offer you can't refuse. You can feel evil (the darkspawn) when its close because evil (the joining) was done to you to make you similar. You can still be a good person, but the act is in and of itself evil and you'll always be haunted by it. I wonder if there are any stories of Grey Wardens slowing losing themselves and becoming darkspawns. They'd have to have will of iron to be wardens.

Which is why at a certain age (generally 30 years after their joining) they venture into the deep roads to die. From what I gather, their bodies can no longer handle the Taint, and they slowly become Wraiths (I believe).

As far as Blood Magic in and of itself, I view it as a form of voodoo practices. There's the beneficial forms of voodoo (spiritual protections, rites of fortune and fertility, etc), and then there's the dark side of the practice (consorting with demons, creating curses, hexes, etc). It's all how the individual uses it in the end that defines them as a practitioner of the art.

At least that's how I see it.

Well, it certainly is a way to see blood magic.

I'm not asking about grey wardens since there is no real chioce in the matter. What I'm asking is why use blood magic knowing that it is wrong. A mage has a choice, grey wardens do not.

Here's the problem.  You're asking the question as if it is already a foregone conclusion that blood magic is inherently wrong.  You're asking a question having already presumed the answer.  But not everyone does accept this basis.

Even if you do accept the premise that blood=life, it won't necessarily follow that using blood magic is inherently evil.  From the standpoint of my own character, for example: she believes that she doesn't have the right to use other people's blood, but her blood is her own, and she damn well has the right to use her own blood in any way she sees fit, especially if she's using it for the sake of good.  In the same vein, (no pun intended), if other people are willing to offer up their own blood in sacrifice, especially if they offer it of their own volition, that's okay, too. 

[MichaelFinnegan]

LobselVith8 wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

About the order, one could interpret it to mean the weak minded get picked first, but it might as well be arbitrary.

I think "Night Terrors" is ridiculous in how companions betray Hawke with a few lines of dialogue. Everyone will succumb except for Hawke and Anders, and at least Anders has the excuse of being an abomination while the protagonist is never forced to succumb to temptation because... why, exactly? If it's setting up the idea that no one can resist, then why can Hawke? It doesn't really make any sense that even if Hawke isn't a mage who was trained by Malcolm and went into the Fade before with him, he's still able to resist while everyone else is railroaded by the demands of the plot.

I interpreted "Night Terrors" differently, as an attempt to give the PC a deeper insight into companions' characters.

Could it have been done differently? Yes, perhaps more dialogue could have been added and a very high persuade/intimidate could have been permitted to prevent the seduction. As to Hawke not falling to temptation - as I said earlier (elsewhere?), that cannot be achieved with 100% chance of success, for obvious reasons. However, opening up this quest after "All That Remains" could have made this more interesting, providing a possible strong motivation for Hawke to be tempted; even a temptation to bring back the lost sibling(s) could at least have been attempted.

Still, I think all of this was merely an attempt to force Hawke to learn something more about his/her companions.

[MichaelFinnegan]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I always thought of the whole demons tempting your companions as this, they tempt the companion who has more of their attribute. Isabella has more desires than Aveline, and since Aveline hasn't yet come to terms with her husband, obviously wishes him back. Isabella....speaks for herself.

Merrill I can see having pride in herself, her training to resist demons, her heritage, and what she wishes to accomplish. She wants to make the elves something to be proud of again. Not just second class citizens or homeless wanderers.

Fenris has a great deal of pride when it comes to magic in general. He believes magic itself is evil, and all mages are a very taint. He sees magic as the source of every single one of his problems. Him being offered power, the ability to fight mages on even footing, something a very powerful pride demon can offer, he can't resist it.

I haven't actually seen Varic be tempted by the Pride demon since I usually have Merrill or Fenris in my party.

Yes, I think you're right. Although, for Fenris it could have been simply that since he was forced to be a slave all his life, it was a direct hit to his pride. Hence that demon. I don't exactly remember about Varric though.

[Torax]

If I recall Varric is tempted with wealth and power.

[1upD]

 I had my mage in Origins use Blood Magic just to try to see things from a different perspective.  My first characters, (Warden and Hawke) who represent my own moral opinions and beliefs, absolutely hated Blood Magic.  As in, KILL IT WITH FIRE.  Like the OP said, blood is life.  Also, mind control is something that no one should be capable of.  My mage, who I just finished DAO with, believes that no one type of magic is inherently evil as long as it used for good purposes. He uses Blood Magic, but isn't exactly 'evil'. One example I found interesting was that the 'Blood Sacrifice' ability takes away a small amount of health and returns a large amount, so I could use blood sacrifice on my tank and then IMMEDIATELY replace the lost health with Heal.  Both companions benefit.  I have yet to see the effect this stance will have on my next Hawke.

[BurstAngel75]

Jugo616 wrote...

Christianity conciser pride to be the biggest of sins, ancient greeks concidered it to be the highes of virtues. Good and evil is just words. They are make believe. A human concept. Blood magic is not good nor evil. Life is not good or evil. It is no more sacred then death.
My warden learned blood magic out of the scientific curiosity. My Hawke learned it because it brings the power he needs to deal with everything. There is nothing wrong with it.

Do you really believe that?? I mean good and evil is just make believe?
Wow, I mean....wow (not in a good way).

Well, most of the posts seem to lead to the same conclusions so I think this thread is pretty much over. I thank all who posts here with their answers. I have to admit that even though it is only a game, how we play it, reflects our core beliefs.
I was hoping for some kindred spirits but I guess I'm alone with my convictions.

[Sajuro]

BurstAngel75 wrote...

Jugo616 wrote...

Christianity conciser pride to be the biggest of sins, ancient greeks concidered it to be the highes of virtues. Good and evil is just words. They are make believe. A human concept. Blood magic is not good nor evil. Life is not good or evil. It is no more sacred then death.
My warden learned blood magic out of the scientific curiosity. My Hawke learned it because it brings the power he needs to deal with everything. There is nothing wrong with it.

Do you really believe that?? I mean good and evil is just make believe?
Wow, I mean....wow (not in a good way).

Well, most of the posts seem to lead to the same conclusions so I think this thread is pretty much over. I thank all who posts here with their answers. I have to admit that even though it is only a game, how we play it, reflects our core beliefs.
I was hoping for some kindred spirits but I guess I'm alone with my convictions.

I do believe that good and evil exist, but it is not in the world that they exist. Within each person is the choice of good and evil. I don't believe that blood magic is inherently evil as you do, it is no more evil then the warrior's sword or the rogues daggers. Blood Magic is harder to use for good then evil since it is always "I'll just summon a demon to repair that tear in the veil" and then "I can help my people with this!"

[LobselVith8]

Sajuro wrote...

I do believe that good and evil exist, but it is not in the world that they exist. Within each person is the choice of good and evil. I don't believe that blood magic is inherently evil as you do, it is no more evil then the warrior's sword or the rogues daggers. Blood Magic is harder to use for good then evil since it is always "I'll just summon a demon to repair that tear in the veil" and then "I can help my people with this!"

Except for The Joining, Finn's ritual, Grey Warden mages using blood magic against the darkspawn, Merrill using blood magic to cleanse a shard of the Eluvian of the taint (as the other corrupted shards tainted the elves who are encountered by The Warden in Witch Hunt), and even Dragon Age Legends depicts a mage using blood magic to stop an abomination as part of the backstory.

[GavrielKay]

BurstAngel75 wrote...
Blood represent/is LIFE, to think that blood magic is a tool ends up using Life as a tool, whether it is your own or someone elses. Which leads to objectifying people as nothing more than a tool to use. (ie slavery)

Lives are often "spent" to further a cause.  Whether literally in a war for freedom or figuratively in a life devoted to teaching etc.  Giving of oneself to accomplish something is hardly a bad thing unless the goal itself is evil.  If I shed blood in a good cause then what should it matter if it is to fuel a spell or by taking damage from fighting the good fight?

[Sajuro]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

I do believe that good and evil exist, but it is not in the world that they exist. Within each person is the choice of good and evil. I don't believe that blood magic is inherently evil as you do, it is no more evil then the warrior's sword or the rogues daggers. Blood Magic is harder to use for good then evil since it is always "I'll just summon a demon to repair that tear in the veil" and then "I can help my people with this!"

Except for The Joining, Finn's ritual, Grey Warden mages using blood magic against the darkspawn, Merrill using blood magic to cleanse a shard of the Eluvian of the taint (as the other corrupted shards tainted the elves who are encountered by The Warden in Witch Hunt), and even Dragon Age Legends depicts a mage using blood magic to stop an abomination as part of the backstory.

What I meant is that most people who use blood magic, use it to help their people or others, but then it becomes a matter of acruing more power. I think Merril is a perfect example of what I was trying to say, she used blood magic to repair the eluvian in order to help her people regain some of their lost history, her goal was benevolent but if not for the intervention and sacrifice of her keeper, Merril would have fallen into the clutches of the pride demon she made a pact with regardless. Like I said, blood magic is not evil on its own, but it has a higher frequency of being used in making deals with the devil (demons) in Thedas, which never turn out well which is why people could view it as evil (though as I said, it would be calling swords evil because they enable people to chop each other up)