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[Silfren]

BurstAngel75 wrote...

Jugo616 wrote...

Christianity conciser pride to be the biggest of sins, ancient greeks concidered it to be the highes of virtues. Good and evil is just words. They are make believe. A human concept. Blood magic is not good nor evil. Life is not good or evil. It is no more sacred then death.
My warden learned blood magic out of the scientific curiosity. My Hawke learned it because it brings the power he needs to deal with everything. There is nothing wrong with it.

Do you really believe that?? I mean good and evil is just make believe?
Wow, I mean....wow (not in a good way).

Well, most of the posts seem to lead to the same conclusions so I think this thread is pretty much over. I thank all who posts here with their answers. I have to admit that even though it is only a game, how we play it, reflects our core beliefs.
I was hoping for some kindred spirits but I guess I'm alone with my convictions.

You're being a just a tad melodramatic now.  I can assure you that no, you're not the only person who refuses to use blood magic with any of your characters, whether because of real-life convictions or because of how they roleplay.  Not getting an answer in this thread hardly means otherwise. 

You set yourself up a bit with your OP, because you asked a question with certain parameters presumed to be absolute.  In other words, you asked the question from the premise that not only is blood magic incontrovertibly evil, that everyone else would automatically agree with you that blood magic is evil, whether or not they were willing to use it.  It also appears that you are approaching this question from a real-life perspective, which can also be problematic, as a lot of people who play the game will specifically set aside their personal, real world moral perspective in order to roleplay an entirely different person from themselves.

This is fallacious from the standpoint that it is NOT actually a given that blood magic is evil, not from what the game lore tells us, or from player interpretation, lore-based or not. 

Now, I'm going to offer a slightly different answer:  my religious beliefs are such that I do actually practice magic, albeit not the "shoot lightning from fingertips" variety.  And blood is a powerful component of such.  I do believe there is power in blood, such that when putting energy into a spell, if I feel the need for it, I'll poke a finger and use the drop I get from that. 

Now, to bring this back around to the topic, I don't see anything inherently wrong with using one's own blood to power a spell.  From a real life perspective, I believe that your life is your own to use, or end, as you see fit.  This is also the belief of the characters I play, and if I'm playing a blood mage, since I don't ever play evil characters, that is the perspective they approach from.  Using someone else's blood is an entirely different matter, and yes, using their blood against their will is morally abhorrent.  Unless of course they're the bad guy you're fighting against, but that's a slightly different equation.  Then there are cases such as what happened to Connor in Redcliffe.  It does seem that the more powerful spells that require so much blood as to require the deaths of one or more persons are the kind of spells that are usually evil, or used for evil.  But with Connor you have a situation like so: at the point you meet him, what's done is done and it's irrelevant how things got to the point where they are.  Now, faced with the given circumstances, you have to choose how to end the threat.  In each scenario, I resort to Jowan's ritual, because I don't see it as evil so long as there is a person willing to make the sacrifice.  Had it been a case of forcing someone to die in order to save Connor, yes, it would have been unequivocally evil.  But that's not the case at all.  Isolde practically begs you to kill her, if the result will be that her son is allowed to live.  I don't agree with the premise that blood magic is so inherently evil that merely considering it amounts to considering evil.

If you take the view that blood magic is always evil no matter what the circumstances...well, let's just say that I find that to be a case of dogmatic fanaticism.  The blood magic ritual used to save Connor is a pretty good example of how blood magic can be used without causing grievous harm.  Yes, someone had to die for the spell to be activated.  But someone was going to die either way, and this way allowed for an innocent boy to be spared.  (I'm deliberately excluding the option of the Chantry, because it is an impractical response, and also could be an unavailable option depending on how you played the Broken Circle quest). 

[Silfren]

BurstAngel75 wrote...

Jugo616 wrote...

Christianity conciser pride to be the biggest of sins, ancient greeks concidered it to be the highes of virtues. Good and evil is just words. They are make believe. A human concept. Blood magic is not good nor evil. Life is not good or evil. It is no more sacred then death.
My warden learned blood magic out of the scientific curiosity. My Hawke learned it because it brings the power he needs to deal with everything. There is nothing wrong with it.

Do you really believe that?? I mean good and evil is just make believe?
Wow, I mean....wow (not in a good way).

Well, most of the posts seem to lead to the same conclusions so I think this thread is pretty much over. I thank all who posts here with their answers. I have to admit that even though it is only a game, how we play it, reflects our core beliefs.
I was hoping for some kindred spirits but I guess I'm alone with my convictions.

Also, that bolded portion?  Is not necessarily true.  You seem to be projecting now.  You may have your character reflect your core beliefs, and that's generally how I play my own characters...but this is not true for everyone, especially people for whom it comes easy to roleplay characters radically different from themselves.  It's a mistake that assume that people either don't or can't separate their characters from their own core values.  But, and I'll admit I'm going out on a limb here, you seem almost to be emotionally affected by the responses you get wherein you assume that people are playing what you view as evil characters as a reflection of their own "core beliefs."  That's...not a good thing.

Modifié par Silfren, 13 juin 2011 - 03:37 .

[Sarielle]

^I get spectacularly bored if I try to play a character that's just an idealized version of myself. So no, my characters don't really reflect my core values. Some might come close on some points but diverge on others.

That said, if I WERE in Thedas, no, I would not think there's anything inherently wrong with blood magic. I find it hysterical that, based on your arguments, it's okay to burn somebody to death and drop meteors on their heads to kill them, but power a healing spell with your own blood and you're evil. In real life, too!

I'm going to guess the OP is either 12 and/or trolling from all the melodrama and self-righteousness oozing out of every post.

Modifié par Sarielle, 13 juin 2011 - 03:14 .

[LobselVith8]

Sajuro wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

I do believe that good and evil exist, but it is not in the world that they exist. Within each person is the choice of good and evil. I don't believe that blood magic is inherently evil as you do, it is no more evil then the warrior's sword or the rogues daggers. Blood Magic is harder to use for good then evil since it is always "I'll just summon a demon to repair that tear in the veil" and then "I can help my people with this!"

Except for The Joining, Finn's ritual, Grey Warden mages using blood magic against the darkspawn, Merrill using blood magic to cleanse a shard of the Eluvian of the taint (as the other corrupted shards tainted the elves who are encountered by The Warden in Witch Hunt), and even Dragon Age Legends depicts a mage using blood magic to stop an abomination as part of the backstory.

What I meant is that most people who use blood magic, use it to help their people or others, but then it becomes a matter of acruing more power. I think Merril is a perfect example of what I was trying to say, she used blood magic to repair the eluvian in order to help her people regain some of their lost history, her goal was benevolent but if not for the intervention and sacrifice of her keeper, Merril would have fallen into the clutches of the pride demon she made a pact with regardless. Like I said, blood magic is not evil on its own, but it has a higher frequency of being used in making deals with the devil (demons) in Thedas, which never turn out well which is why people could view it as evil (though as I said, it would be calling swords evil because they enable people to chop each other up)

You don't know that. You can't claim people start to use it beneficially and then abuse it afterwards when we have never encountered this in Origins or its sequel. Jowan was an apprentice who kept making mistakes, but there's no evidence he did it to attain more power, and Merrill is a very poor example for you to use when it seems more likely that Audacity was trying to get Marethari rather than Merrill, as we don't know what risks would have occured for a mage to deal with a demon trapped by ancient elven magic inside a totem in the real world, as opposed to the Fade. The fact that even Marethari thinks the danger came from the Eluvian and not from dealing directly with Audacity makes me wonder whether becoming an abomination was a real risk, or simply something that Merrill planned for just to be on the safe side, even if there was really no risk at all.

Also, you have no evidence there's a higher frequency of it being used for malevolent purposes, since we know the Wardens have no prohibition against blood magic and every Warden is technically made as a result of blood magic. It's not even easy to consider if DA2 can be taken into account because of it's infamous "waves" of enemy antagonists who appear from thin air and the abominations that can be summoned from the ground.

[sphinxess]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

I do believe that good and evil exist, but it is not in the world that they exist. Within each person is the choice of good and evil. I don't believe that blood magic is inherently evil as you do, it is no more evil then the warrior's sword or the rogues daggers. Blood Magic is harder to use for good then evil since it is always "I'll just summon a demon to repair that tear in the veil" and then "I can help my people with this!"

Except for The Joining, Finn's ritual, Grey Warden mages using blood magic against the darkspawn, Merrill using blood magic to cleanse a shard of the Eluvian of the taint (as the other corrupted shards tainted the elves who are encountered by The Warden in Witch Hunt), and even Dragon Age Legends depicts a mage using blood magic to stop an abomination as part of the backstory.

What I meant is that most people who use blood magic, use it to help their people or others, but then it becomes a matter of acruing more power. I think Merril is a perfect example of what I was trying to say, she used blood magic to repair the eluvian in order to help her people regain some of their lost history, her goal was benevolent but if not for the intervention and sacrifice of her keeper, Merril would have fallen into the clutches of the pride demon she made a pact with regardless. Like I said, blood magic is not evil on its own, but it has a higher frequency of being used in making deals with the devil (demons) in Thedas, which never turn out well which is why people could view it as evil (though as I said, it would be calling swords evil because they enable people to chop each other up)

You don't know that. You can't claim people start to use it beneficially and then abuse it afterwards when we have never encountered this in Origins or its sequel. Jowan was an apprentice who kept making mistakes, but there's no evidence he did it to attain more power, and Merrill is a very poor example for you to use when it seems more likely that Audacity was trying to get Marethari rather than Merrill, as we don't know what risks would have occured for a mage to deal with a demon trapped by ancient elven magic inside a totem in the real world, as opposed to the Fade. The fact that even Marethari thinks the danger came from the Eluvian and not from dealing directly with Audacity makes me wonder whether becoming an abomination was a real risk, or simply something that Merrill planned for just to be on the safe side, even if there was really no risk at all.

Also, you have no evidence there's a higher frequency of it being used for malevolent purposes, since we know the Wardens have no prohibition against blood magic and every Warden is technically made as a result of blood magic. It's not even easy to consider if DA2 can be taken into account because of it's infamous "waves" of enemy antagonists who appear from thin air and the abominations that can be summoned from the ground.

It seems a lot more likely that belief that slavery is ok would led to using other peoples blood/mind control than start the progression with someone using their own blood in one of these A to B to C arguments.

[Zeevico]

Blood magic! Huh! What is good for? Absolutely nothing!

[LobselVith8]

sphinxess wrote...

It seems a lot more likely that belief that slavery is ok would led to using other peoples blood/mind control than start the progression with someone using their own blood in one of these A to B to C arguments.

Or there could be occassions where it can save lives, where a person who knows blood magic and understands mind control (like a blood mage Hawke) could have used the knowledge to prevent Vaughan from abducting the women out of the Alienage to rape them by covertly using blood magic to stop him, considering that no one cared that a nobleman was abducting women in broad daylight out of the Alienage and into his manor.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Jowan was a mage too weak to complete (or even be considered for) the Harrowing. He turned to blood magic to grant him enough power.
Merrill didn't have the power to cleanse the Eluvian on her own. She turned to blood magic to give her the neccesary power.

Every blood mage we encounter in the game, has turned to blood magic due to purely selfish needs, and not from some sense of altruism.

And for a guy who claims to be ethical, or at least cry out loud at the mention of the Circles, you sure are quick to suggest unethical solutions. Mind control is perhaps the most unethical thing imaginable, even if it saves lifes.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 13 juin 2011 - 09:29 .

[The Baconer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And for a guy who claims to be ethical, or at least cry out loud at the mention of the Circles, you sure are quick to suggest unethical solutions. Mind control is perhaps the most unethical thing imaginable, even if it saves lifes.

Some might say the same about the systematic purging of a specific population.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Indeed. And I merely pointed out the irony.

[The Baconer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Indeed. And I merely pointed out the irony.

Actually, it is rather delicious, on second thought.

[MichaelFinnegan]

BurstAngel75 wrote...

Jugo616 wrote...

Christianity conciser pride to be the biggest of sins, ancient greeks concidered it to be the highes of virtues. Good and evil is just words. They are make believe. A human concept. Blood magic is not good nor evil. Life is not good or evil. It is no more sacred then death.
My warden learned blood magic out of the scientific curiosity. My Hawke learned it because it brings the power he needs to deal with everything. There is nothing wrong with it.

Do you really believe that?? I mean good and evil is just make believe?
Wow, I mean....wow (not in a good way).

You're ignoring the other point that Jugo made - that they are human concepts. Saying something is either good or evil without explaining the underlying standard of judgment is just, I'm afraid, intellectually backward. Perhaps even an arrogant position to take?

Well, most of the posts seem to lead to the same conclusions so I think this thread is pretty much over.

The conclusion being that it is not clear by lore that blood magic is evil? I'm afraid unless you make a clear case for why you think blood magic is evil, you'll not find me as a taker. I'm not going to take your particular conclusions on faith.

Or perhaps it was never your intention to convince anyone. In which case, I apologize.

I thank all who posts here with their answers. I have to admit that even though it is only a game, how we play it, reflects our core beliefs.

With some perhaps, but it may not be universally so. It is a game, after all - as I see it, an opportunity to overcome some of our, how shall I put it, inherent prejudices, without fear of reproach.

I was hoping for some kindred spirits but I guess I'm alone with my convictions.

Well, it seems you've ignored most of what I said. I said I have given Merrill that specialization, not that I personally became a blood mage at any time. There is a very simple reason why I didn't become a blood mage in DAO: the fact that, to acquire it, I had to make a deal with a desire demon, to postpone Connor's possession to a distant point in the future.

Whether it is required to make such deals with demons to learn blood magic becomes unclear playing Awakening and/or DA2. Admittedly, though, DA2 may not be a great way to judge this, given that specializations are just level-locked. Nevertheless, I still have that element of doubt in mind, which makes me hesitate at times. Still, such hesitations and doubts are mine to bear.

I must admit that it didn't really cross my mind that you were here merely for a statistical purpose - to do a nose count, so to say.

[sphinxess]

I think core beliefs do often carry into these games. Following my core beliefs I could argue for hours that Jedi "Mind Tricks" or Superman erasing Lois Lanes memory are totally evil actions and woulld have very few on my side. However my core beliefs tell me blood is just a liquid and I don't see anything in the game that proves to me otherwise.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Torax wrote...

If I recall Varric is tempted with wealth and power.

The Wiki says that he is tempted with power to get back at his brother. I wonder, though. How are revenge and pride linked here? Perhaps a dwarven honor thing?

[MichaelFinnegan]

sphinxess wrote...

I think core beliefs do often carry into these games.

But it would be incorrect to say it's an universal thing. For me, it would also be difficult to quantify this with things like "often," because I don't know how or why people play such games; heck, I can't even say they play consistently in the same way throughout a game.

Following my core beliefs I could argue for hours that Jedi "Mind Tricks" or Superman erasing Lois Lanes memory are totally evil actions and woulld have very few on my side.

Indeed. I echo your beliefs. One could start with an assumption that thoughts within the mind are as private as any private property can get...

However my core beliefs tell me blood is just a liquid and I don't see anything in the game that proves to me otherwise.

I hesitate here because I'm not sure how one acquires knowledge of blood magic in the first place.

[sphinxess]

[quote]MichaelFinnegan wrote...

[quote]sphinxess wrote...

[quote]
However my core beliefs tell me blood is just a liquid and I don't see anything in the game that proves to me otherwise.[/quote]

I hesitate here because I'm not sure how one acquires knowledge of blood magic in the first place.[/quote]

I have been surprised by all the controversy over this - early threads for the most part agreed Jowen learned blood magic from books - contacting a Demon to learn blood magic so he can get through the harrowing seems rather unlike Jowen.and as far as I remember he never says one word about talking to a Demon - the discussions usually were about if the books were put out as bait to trap mages. What does a demon provide that can't be learned from books?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Jowan was looking for your help, saying: "Oh and by the way, I've made a deal with a demon, and the accusations agaisnt me are totally justified", wouldn't exactly have been the best way to procure it.
Jowan even lied to your face about being a blood mage, he didn't reveal himself until the Templars caught him.

[themonty72]

Blood Magic is a choice rather you use it or not, like it or not.. i tried it for my mage hawk and didnt like it ...felt rather weak. I enjoyed the Reaver which is also blood magic as Ethereal writer explain.i. Merrill explains blood magic  to your Hawk while performing one of her  quest. Its the individual behind it who can make it evil. Like a gun placed in the wrong hands.

Modifié par themonty72, 13 juin 2011 - 04:14 .

[GavrielKay]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's not even easy to consider if DA2 can be taken into account because of it's infamous "waves" of enemy antagonists who appear from thin air and the abominations that can be summoned from the ground.

Random thought...  can't demons possess dead bodies as well?  Maybe it's easy for mages to summon demons in Kirkwall because there are so many dead bodies buried there due to the Tevinter activity.

[MichaelFinnegan]

sphinxess wrote...

I have been surprised by all the controversy over this - early threads for the most part agreed Jowen learned blood magic from books - contacting a Demon to learn blood magic so he can get through the harrowing seems rather unlike Jowen.and as far as I remember he never says one word about talking to a Demon - the discussions usually were about if the books were put out as bait to trap mages. What does a demon provide that can't be learned from books?

My memories of Jowan are pretty vague, and I don't remember how he learns blood magic. But wasn't his motivation to acquire blood magic to actually increase his power as someone here pointed out? Few things I remember about him: one is his repentant nature; and second, playing as a warrior the very first time, I believed that I could actually recruit him. It was interesting if we were given the option to recruit a blood mage in DAO. I did not see him as a bad character, but someone motivated by envy.

Back to topic, I think the issue for me is that DAO left a kind of uneasy feeling in my mind about blood magic. Something quite irrational, I'm sure, given how unlocking blood magic supposedly happens in Awakening, but one that has nevertheless lingered. Acquiring it in DAO was different, so maybe I shouldn't hesitate in DA2 - given that there is no compelling reason for it.

Now that I think about it, I'm also not sure what exactly causes the Veil to tear when using blood magic. The details are a bit sketchy for me. In Merrill's case, when she uses blood magic to overcome the barrier at Sundermount during Act 1, Bethany noticed a shift in the Veil. I'm not sure if that is actually caused by blood magic in itself, or because it was a (powerful?) spell that Merrill invoked which required the demon's help, or something else entirely.

[Dragonella1]

If Jowan made deal with a demon, what he could offer in exchange for knowledge? Usual price is to allow possession but Jowan is not a abomination. Sometimes it's also to set a demon free from some sort of prison, but there are no free demons around (at least before Uldred summon them). Unless the demon could predict events in Redcliffe and Jowan played active role in Connor incident I see no demon getting any profit from Jowan.

[Mickespel]

GavrielKay wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's not even easy to consider if DA2 can be taken into account because of it's infamous "waves" of enemy antagonists who appear from thin air and the abominations that can be summoned from the ground.

Random thought...  can't demons possess dead bodies as well?  Maybe it's easy for mages to summon demons in Kirkwall because there are so many dead bodies buried there due to the Tevinter activity.

The undead we see are mostly from recent bodies and many demons are are not possessing corpses. However the damage to the veil the Tevinter mages caused in Kirkvall makes demon summoning easier, I also assume that it is easier for demons to contact and teach bloodmagic there, hench whey there is so many of those bloodmages. Kirkvall really should not have a Circle at all and be kept clean of mages, it is just to dangerous for mages to stay in that area.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Jowan was a mage too weak to complete (or even be considered for) the Harrowing.

Another opinion of yours that you put forward as evidence, I see. There's no factual basis to claim that Jowan was too weak to complete the Harrowing.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He turned to blood magic to grant him enough power.

Jowan says he learned blood magic to make him a better mage, and we have no evidence to contradict his claim. He's certainly capable of using his abilities to protect refugees as Master Levyn.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Merrill didn't have the power to cleanse the Eluvian on her own. She turned to blood magic to give her the neccesary power.

Merrill lacked the necessary lyrium to cleanse the shard, you mean.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Every blood mage we encounter in the game, has turned to blood magic due to purely selfish needs, and not from some sense of altruism.

You should really try to stop claiming your opinions are facts, since Merrill alone is proof that a mage has turned to blood magic for altruistic reasons - although we know how much you detest the elves, so I won't bother getting into that discussion with you.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And for a guy who claims to be ethical, or at least cry out loud at the mention of the Circles, you sure are quick to suggest unethical solutions. Mind control is perhaps the most unethical thing imaginable, even if it saves lifes.

I take it you think women should be raped instead of the rapist being stopped?

[Mickespel]

Dragonella1 wrote...

If Jowan made deal with a demon, what he could offer in exchange for knowledge? Usual price is to allow possession but Jowan is not a abomination. Sometimes it's also to set a demon free from some sort of prison, but there are no free demons around (at least before Uldred summon them). Unless the demon could predict events in Redcliffe and Jowan played active role in Connor incident I see no demon getting any profit from Jowan.

Intime, if Jowan grows in power, he will be a more tasty host later, or maybe provide other opportunities. SUch a demon could see him as an investment.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Indeed. And I merely pointed out the irony.

What irony? I argue against the genocide of an entire population of men, women, and children for an act they aren't responsible for, and if blood magic means a rapist can be stopped from raping multiple women, I have no issues with mind control being used. You apparently think the women should be raped rather than rescued from the looks of things.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Jowan was looking for your help, saying: "Oh and by the way, I've made a deal with a demon, and the accusations agaisnt me are totally justified", wouldn't exactly have been the best way to procure it.

Is there any evidence Jowan made a deal with a demon? No? So this is more of you putting forth your baseless theories as evidence once again?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Jowan even lied to your face about being a blood mage, he didn't reveal himself until the Templars caught him.

And Jowan becomes Master Levyn and devotes his life to protecting refugees from the darkspawn instead of securing his own freedom.