LobselVith8 wrote...
What irony? I argue against the genocide of an entire population of men, women, and children for an act they aren't responsible for, and if blood magic means a rapist can be stopped from raping multiple women, I have no issues with mind control being used. You apparently think the women should be raped rather than rescued from the looks of things.
ddv.rsa wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
What irony? I argue against the genocide of an entire population of men, women, and children for an act they aren't responsible for, and if blood magic means a rapist can be stopped from raping multiple women, I have no issues with mind control being used. You apparently think the women should be raped rather than rescued from the looks of things.
Sometimes even men. Remember that blood mage from DA2? He was with Grace, but I can't recall his name.
sphinxess wrote...
I have been surprised by all the controversy over this - early threads for the most part agreed Jowen learned blood magic from books - contacting a Demon to learn blood magic so he can get through the harrowing seems rather unlike Jowen.and as far as I remember he never says one word about talking to a Demon - the discussions usually were about if the books were put out as bait to trap mages. What does a demon provide that can't be learned from books?
MichaelFinnegan wrote...
My memories of Jowan are pretty vague, and I don't remember how he learns blood magic.
MichaelFinnegan wrote...
But wasn't his motivation to acquire blood magic to actually increase his power as someone here pointed out?
MichaelFinnegan wrote...
Few things I remember about him: one is his repentant nature; and second, playing as a warrior the very first time, I believed that I could actually recruit him.
MichaelFinnegan wrote...
Back to topic, I think the issue for me is that DAO left a kind of uneasy feeling in my mind about blood magic. Something quite irrational, I'm sure, given how unlocking blood magic supposedly happens in Awakening, but one that has nevertheless lingered. Acquiring it in DAO was different, so maybe I shouldn't hesitate in DA2 - given that there is no compelling reason for it.
MichaelFinnegan wrote...
Now that I think about it, I'm also not sure what exactly causes the Veil to tear when using blood magic. The details are a bit sketchy for me. In Merrill's case, when she uses blood magic to overcome the barrier at Sundermount during Act 1, Bethany noticed a shift in the Veil. I'm not sure if that is actually caused by blood magic in itself, or because it was a (powerful?) spell that Merrill invoked which required the demon's help, or something else entirely.
LobselVith8 wrote...
When does this happen? Since I don't remember exactly what happened, I'll have to resort to other sources here. Take a look at this http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Jowan:LobselVith8 wrote...
MichaelFinnegan wrote...
But wasn't his motivation to acquire blood magic to actually increase his power as someone here pointed out?
No, Jowan makes it clear he learned it because he thought it would make him a better mage.
Since I was pumping dexterity, I missed this intimidate option. That does clear it up for me. Thanks. I'll not argue the possibility of learning of blood magic from a book, because it is quite clear that is how it is done in Awakening.There was only one way to learn it in Origins - a demon. The Warden could intimidate the demon and coerce her to teach him while saving Connor's soul, which is how my Surana Warden handled it; the Orlesian Warden can learn blood magic the same way Jowan did - through a book.
But what do you suppose a "shift" in Veil means? I shouldn't assume that it is exactly like a tear, but I'm at a loss to interpret it.Merrill summoned a spirit to destroy the barrier through blood magic, which isn't much different than a Spirit Healer summoning a spirit to enchance his healing abilities. Tearing the Veil happens when there's a great deal of death involved in a particular place, which is what transpired in the Brecillian Forest, Soldier's Peak, and the city-state of Kirkwall.
Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 14 juin 2011 - 02:36 .
MichaelFinnegan wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
No, Jowan makes it clear he learned it because he thought it would make him a better mage.
When does this happen? Since I don't remember exactly what happened, I'll have to resort to other sources here. Take a look at this http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Jowan:
"[During the Arl of Redcliffe quest] If you choose the option to execute him, you can be his executioner and can engage in an emotional conversation with him. He'll reveal that he started to practice blood magic in order to become more powerful, because he always felt minor compared to the Warden."
Which points to envy as the prime motivation. (This should only work if the Warden is a mage.)
MichaelFinnegan wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill summoned a spirit to destroy the barrier through blood magic, which isn't much different than a Spirit Healer summoning a spirit to enchance his healing abilities. Tearing the Veil happens when there's a great deal of death involved in a particular place, which is what transpired in the Brecillian Forest, Soldier's Peak, and the city-state of Kirkwall.
But what do you suppose a "shift" in Veil means? I shouldn't assume that it is exactly like a tear, but I'm at a loss to interpret it.
Guest_Queen-Of-Stuff_*
MichaelFinnegan wrote...
When does this happen? Since I don't remember exactly what happened, I'll have to resort to other sources here. Take a look at this http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Jowan:
"[During the Arl of Redcliffe quest] If you choose the option to execute him, you can be his executioner and can engage in an emotional conversation with him. He'll reveal that he started to practice blood magic in order to become more powerful, because he always felt minor compared to the Warden."
Which points to envy as the prime motivation. (This should only work if the Warden is a mage.)
Modifié par Queen-Of-Stuff, 13 juin 2011 - 05:50 .
I wonder, though, about what exactly he meant by being "better."LobselVith8 wrote...
Jowan mentions he wanted to be a better mage in his conversation to Lily towards the end of the Magi Origin, and the Amell or Surana Warden is referenced by the abomination Uldred as "Irving's star pupil" so he seems to be the best of his (or her) generation. I'm not surprised that Jowan felt that he was in the shadow of the mage protagonist.
Yes, I suppose so. So, perhaps the difference between Merrill and Jowan is that Merrill seems to be actively interacting with the demon (or spirit, however you look at it), but for Jowan there is actually no evidence for such an interaction happening.LobselVith8 wrote...
The shift Bethany mentions probably comes from the fact that Merrill summoned a spirit to destroy the barrier.
Guest_Queen-Of-Stuff_*
Mickespel wrote...
Jowans greatest shortcoming is that he believed he needed more power to prove himself worthy of been tested in the Harrowing. Power was never the issue thou, I am sure the Circle would have no problem with really weak mages as long as they are not weak minded. Take that mage Ines, I have no idea of how powerful she is but she seem to consider herself botanist first and mage second. For all we know she could just barely be able to cast spells at all.
Statwise, the needed minimum wisdom value are probably a lot higher then the minimum magic value, for using game terms. Or as Joda puts it "You must learn control!" That is what Jowan failed at.
"Good," though, could mean several things. I merely think, based on what has been said here, that he wanted to become more powerful (perhaps in the eyes of Lily and even Irving). So, if envy was his motivation, I don't think he even considered anything about controlling his powers. It was perhaps, as you said, merely a dabbling in it, blinded perhaps by that emotion.Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
He tells Lily he dabbled because he thought it would make him a better mage. And then later he tells you - mage!Warden - that he always knew he'd never be as good a mage as you, and he resented that and in a moment of weakness he learned blood magic and freaked out about it. Being a good mage sort of goes hand in hand with being powerful and skilled in controlling that power, so saying that Jowan sought to achieve more power isn't incorrect. But as you said, envy is the motivation, and not power simply for powers sake.
MichaelFinnegan wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
The shift Bethany mentions probably comes from the fact that Merrill summoned a spirit to destroy the barrier.
Yes, I suppose so. So, perhaps the difference between Merrill and Jowan is that Merrill seems to be actively interacting with the demon (or spirit, however you look at it), but for Jowan there is actually no evidence for such an interaction happening.
Guest_Queen-Of-Stuff_*
MichaelFinnegan wrote...
"Good," though, could mean several things. I merely think, based on what has been said here, that he wanted to become more powerful (perhaps in the eyes of Lily and even Irving). So, if envy was his motivation, I don't think he even considered anything about controlling his powers. It was perhaps, as you said, merely a dabbling in it, blinded perhaps by that emotion.
To put it simply, envy was his motivation and power the goal.
These are two different things: stronger will and the power to wield stronger spells. If he didn't have the latter, it doesn't follow that he didn't have the former.Mickespel wrote...
Jowans greatest shortcoming is that he believed he needed more power to prove himself worthy of been tested in the Harrowing. Power was never the issue thou, I am sure the Circle would have no problem with really weak mages as long as they are not weak minded.
Yes, that makes sense to me.Take that mage Ines, I have no idea of how powerful she is but she seem to consider herself botanist first and mage second. For all we know she could just barely be able to cast spells at all.
But is it true that he feared he won't make it through the harrowing? All I know of is that he envied not being as "good" (for lack of a better word) than the Warden.Statwise, the needed minimum wisdom value are probably a lot higher then the minimum magic value, for using game terms. Or as Joda puts it "You must learn control!" That is what Jowan failed at.
Perhaps, but I'd think that she'd have to interact with that spirit/demon first. The spontaneous nature of the way that Merrill destroys that barrier tells otherwise to me. It tells me that she must have already made that pact. I could be wrong, though, but this explanation makes more sense to me.LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't think it's Audacity who destroyed the barrier, but a spirit (or demon) she summoned from then Fade. Spirit Healers summon spirits into the real world when they need to enchance their healing abilities, and Anders was doing something similar by using Justice to enchance his abilities when he was healing people.
I believe we're in an agreement here. I was just saying that "control" of his talents was perhaps farther from his mind; as in, it was a rash decision when he decided to do it. He probably gained that control over time.Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
"Good" as in "talented". I imagine that being talented at magic requires one to have a lot of power at one's disposal and the ability to control that power perfectly. If a mage can barely summon the power to light a candle, he or she can't really be considered talented at magic - at the same time, a mage who can light a candle and then accidentally sets the library on fire at the same time can't be considered talented at magic either. He wanted to be a better mage, something I interpret as being more talented at magic - and if he was less talented than you by having less power at his disposal, he would have to remedy that first. So, blood magic.
MichaelFinnegan wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't think it's Audacity who destroyed the barrier, but a spirit (or demon) she summoned from then Fade. Spirit Healers summon spirits into the real world when they need to enchance their healing abilities, and Anders was doing something similar by using Justice to enchance his abilities when he was healing people.
Perhaps, but I'd think that she'd have to interact with that spirit/demon first. The spontaneous nature of the way that Merrill destroys that barrier tells otherwise to me. It tells me that she must have already made that pact. I could be wrong, though, but this explanation makes more sense to me.
One other explanation I can think of is perhaps Avernus had beforehand made pacts with more than one demon, knowing the nature of the battle ahead. In any case, Merrill might also have done the same. As to the spontaneous nature of summoning those demons - it still seems unlikely to me. But I guess there could be spells to "trap" demons from the Fade to one's command.LobselVith8 wrote...
Avernus summoned multiple demons in Warden's Keep at the spur of the moment (when Commander Sophia Dryden ordered him to do so), and they were binded to him until the Veil became weak and he summoned too many to control. It doesn't seem too far off that Merrill could control one spirit (or demon) for the sole purpose of destroying a barrier.
Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 13 juin 2011 - 07:38 .
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
you're giving the word "use" a very narrow definition.
Deztyn wrote...
I don't think Awakening is a good example of how you can learn Blood Magic. It's a book you can buy just like every other specialization. And it's achievement based just like every other specialization so no wardens after the first have to make deals with demons or buy books to learn blood magic (And you can just reload a previous save to make sure not even the first warden has to pay a cost.) In Awakening you can also buy an unlimited number of potions that let you completely respec your warden. It's pure game mechanics, not lore.
Modifié par Deztyn, 13 juin 2011 - 09:33 .
Deztyn wrote...
Game mechanic.
Do you also believe that there are books in Thedas that let you unlearn/learn everything, and untrain/retrain your body?
One minute you're an ambidextrous master assassin and the next you're a singing archer and all it takes is a a few sovereigns...
Modifié par Deztyn, 13 juin 2011 - 09:55 .
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Jowan was a mage too weak to complete (or even be considered for) the Harrowing. He turned to blood magic to grant him enough power.
Merrill didn't have the power to cleanse the Eluvian on her own. She turned to blood magic to give her the neccesary power.
Every blood mage we encounter in the game, has turned to blood magic due to purely selfish needs, and not from some sense of altruism.
And for a guy who claims to be ethical, or at least cry out loud at the mention of the Circles, you sure are quick to suggest unethical solutions. Mind control is perhaps the most unethical thing imaginable, even if it saves lifes.
MichaelFinnegan wrote...
My memories of Jowan are pretty vague, and I don't remember how he learns blood magic. But wasn't his motivation to acquire blood magic to actually increase his power as someone here pointed out? Few things I remember about him: one is his repentant nature; and second, playing as a warrior the very first time, I believed that I could actually recruit him. It was interesting if we were given the option to recruit a blood mage in DAO. I did not see him as a bad character, but someone motivated by envy.sphinxess wrote...
I have been surprised by all the controversy over this - early threads for the most part agreed Jowen learned blood magic from books - contacting a Demon to learn blood magic so he can get through the harrowing seems rather unlike Jowen.and as far as I remember he never says one word about talking to a Demon - the discussions usually were about if the books were put out as bait to trap mages. What does a demon provide that can't be learned from books?
Back to topic, I think the issue for me is that DAO left a kind of uneasy feeling in my mind about blood magic. Something quite irrational, I'm sure, given how unlocking blood magic supposedly happens in Awakening, but one that has nevertheless lingered. Acquiring it in DAO was different, so maybe I shouldn't hesitate in DA2 - given that there is no compelling reason for it.
Now that I think about it, I'm also not sure what exactly causes the Veil to tear when using blood magic. The details are a bit sketchy for me. In Merrill's case, when she uses blood magic to overcome the barrier at Sundermount during Act 1, Bethany noticed a shift in the Veil. I'm not sure if that is actually caused by blood magic in itself, or because it was a (powerful?) spell that Merrill invoked which required the demon's help, or something else entirely.
Modifié par Silfren, 13 juin 2011 - 10:24 .
Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
Mickespel wrote...
Jowans greatest shortcoming is that he believed he needed more power to prove himself worthy of been tested in the Harrowing. Power was never the issue thou, I am sure the Circle would have no problem with really weak mages as long as they are not weak minded. Take that mage Ines, I have no idea of how powerful she is but she seem to consider herself botanist first and mage second. For all we know she could just barely be able to cast spells at all.
Statwise, the needed minimum wisdom value are probably a lot higher then the minimum magic value, for using game terms. Or as Joda puts it "You must learn control!" That is what Jowan failed at.
You can't really blame him for that, though. The Harrowing is the most feared test in any young Circle mage's life and no one really have any clue what it's about, only that it's very dangerous and those who fail disappear and are never heard from again. I sort of get the feeling that the mages do not really get the preparation they need beforehand, but that could be because the Harrowing is an introduction scene in the Mage Origin and the mage PC must seem a little clueless because the first-time players are, at this point.
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