161 réponses à ce sujet

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

As a DM an MMO environment is completely useless to me.

Clearly we have different definitions of what role-playing is. You sound like what us RP snobs used to call a "roll-player", and there's no point in engaging in a debate about what role-playing is, but for my purposes (and I realize that I represent a VERY small segment of the market) I use NWN as a PnP style role playing tool. NWN works great for that purpose.

I find the Single-Player environment that forms the bulk of the market to be a dreadful bore. Beyond the simple philosophy that a role playing experience isn't really role playing if it's not shared, it's impossible to create a real role playing experience without a DM. It's not possible for a computer to have a free-form conversation with the player. The player doesn't have any real freedom when it comes to making choices. All he can do is select one of four of five pre-planned responses, most of which result the same conclusion. While this can provide an illusion of freedom (if it's done really well which it usually isn't), that's not really role playing in a PnP sense.

Players can't define their own goals and achievements. They have to limit their ambitions to someone else's (the game designers) imagination. They cannot make changes to the game world beyond those pre-determined by the game designer. This is why I find the contention that "an MMO could actually be closer to PnP than the NWN games are" to be ridiculous and even insulting. It's just plain stupid to suggest that you can remove the DM from the equation and make the game closer to a pnp experience.

I suppose time will tell, but the whole "Neverwinter Online" thing looks pretty pathetic to me. I understand that Atari wants a piece of Blizzard's WoW money, but they're overlooking the same basic problem that almost every other developer chasing the same market has overlooked. The bulk of that audience already has years invested in playing a different game (WoW) that they won't eagerly throw away for the privilidge of having to start over again from scratch.

Sorry, guys. The WoW ship has sailed. I won't even get into Cryptics previous track record, or the fact that Pay-to-Play is a dying business model.

Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 18 juin 2011 - 07:25 .

[foil-]

While I agree with a lot of that, right up to the comment "It's just plain stupid to suggest that you can remove the DM from the equation and make the game closer to a pnp experience...". Its probably the antagonistic tone rather than the message that loses me. I still feel that for those of us that don't have the time to do true role playing, Neverwinter may offer up the best alternative to D&D pen and paper. If it can quickly hook up four like-minded people with an elegant system, then I'm all for it. If I am going to dedicate time to converse with a DM and truly get interactive, then I see no sense in limiting myself with a DM client or other system that requires a surrogate between me and the group I'm playing with. That is the point where I walk away from the computer and get together with a face-to-face group. Of course the DM client may provide an option for long distance hooking up with child hood friend, unfortunately most of my childhood friends are in the same boat as me time wise, or never got comfortable with computers.

I won't go into all those tangents you mention either since, while I don't think Cryptic is necessarily capable of hitting it out of the park either, I've yet to find a replacement to a good social game like PnP, including NWN2. I can't relate well over the phone either. I may never be able to relate through a computer or electronic media which prevents eye contact, spontaneity, humour, or other forms of true connection and generally always pushes me back to the best of the single player content. But I can still hope that Cryptic and BioWare can push the industry in the right direction even if their current offering doesn't succeed. I'm certain NWN2 is no longer is the instrument for change that it could have potentially been with some great support by Atari or others. It no longer has the marketing money behind it and we may have to look to Neverwinter for that push to something truly revolutionary that draws people in. But truthfully, I don't think Atari has the deep pockets or is up to the task of marketing this thing.

Modifié par foil-, 18 juin 2011 - 06:07 .

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

I stand corrected. My use of the word stupid was inappropriate. Let's say "unfathomable" instead.

[MasterChanger]

You know, I think the DM issue really boils down to control. In a PnP session, the players physically sit at a table with another human being who is the final arbiter of what is and isn't possible within the scope of that adventure. The players can influence this arbiter by proposing things they'd like to be able to do, as well as through the range of social interactions that surround tabletop gaming. Thus, the players have a good measure of control over what their characters can accomplish, limited above all else by their own imaginations.

In NWN, we have the DM client. In this context, the DM certainly sits at further remove from the players than were we all sitting around a table. Nevertheless, the DM is ultimately the player's peer: a fellow member of the NWN community with ways to be influenced, for example, by especially high-quality role-play.

However, there is another avenue by which NWN players have influence over the shape of our adventures, even if we never interact with a DM, even if we only play solo. The community can create essentially any story we wish, which means that a player who has always wanted their character to do a particular thing has recourse: that player can influence other community members to make that story, or they can make it themselves.

This element of control is ultimately what is missing from an MMO model, or from any model in which all new content is generated by a central company. Even if the player is able to band together with like-minded people in an instance, and even if another community member can serve as a limited GM for this instance, the control that this group can exert over their own experience must be sharply limited.

Really, after NWN 1/2, giving back that control feels to me like expecting to be spoon-fed.

[foil-]

I updated the original post with this HD (720p) version of the video. It makes Neverwinter's graphics look marginally better. Certainly better than Cryptic's previous games. Hopefully some DX11 support to help round out edges on shields and round corners.

[Pompeii69]

I have only recently come across this proposed game, and in hearing the title I was excited about it. Until I read this:

"Since we haven't yet had a chance to play the game, Emmert talked about how the gameplay will actually work. "Right now, it's an action-RPG, so there are no turns, no initiative rolls."

Don't want an Action RPG, I like the tried and true method of pause & play as NWN, NWN2, and DA:O play.

[painofdungeoneternal]

All different playstyles, and the real answer is Atari should do more than one game catering to each group. Just because you like D&D for whatever reason does not mean D&D is catering to your playstyle, it just happens to be a tool which lets you play how you want. There have always been monty haul players, roll players, role players, theatrical types who really enact it all, not to mention those just playing as an excuse to drink beer and eat nachos, and D&D has always catered to each and every single playstyle i just listed. There is far too many people fighting for their playstyle alone, for some reason thinking that D&D is breaking some holy law by catering to anyone besides themselves. The only law enshrined in D&D is rule zero which lets us adapt everything as we see fit.

What NWO is, is a way to quickly make a product leveraging existing technology. I have often heard requests for improved tools for character appearance in creation, and from what i understand the ones in champions are incredible, with full control of faces, costumes and all the rest. They also have a solid engine with a Z axis built in. Nice engine as a base i have to say. But it's a MMO being twisted into what we are looking for. This is comparable to having different tools, the medium used here is the cryptic engine, and it is targeting a specific group of players.

Just imagine if we were discussing a lego version of D&D, while it would not really appeal to me, it would mean quite a few young children would be getting exposed to D&D and those people might end up looking for a better version. Even dragon age ended up with people looking for other games like NWN1 and NWN2 to play after they were finished with it. Just don't expect this game to be the holy grail game which does everything and caters to every one.

Technically it's not using D&D combat rolls, initiative, 20 sided dice or anything of that sort. The main things they are doing is some spectacular modeling work, area design which looks very cool. They also are customizing the character creation tools and options, and probably doing some work so their current system follows similar rules to 4.0 ( unless the rules in 4.0 were based partially on their input which is very possible as well ). Given that they are not having to implement everything from scratch this leaves them more time to do what they are implementing much better, and it's very likely to be much less buggy than any previous game on release.

I am also looking forward to seeing what it's like to have a game written by Salvatore. Hoping it's good, understand it might just be awful, but willing to take it for what it is. I really don't want to get my expectations up ahead of time.

[Pompeii69]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...
Technically it's not using D&D combat rolls, initiative, 20 sided dice or anything of that sort.

Which kinda excludes it from being a D&D game, no?  I thought the whole basis of D&D is all about dice rolls... At least that's what my friends who are PnP D&D fans say...

Modifié par Pompeii69, 21 juin 2011 - 08:56 .

[foil-]

Pompeii69 wrote...

painofdungeoneternal wrote...
Technically it's not using D&D combat rolls, initiative, 20 sided dice or anything of that sort.

Which kinda excludes it from being a D&D game, no?  I thought the whole basis of D&D is all about dice rolls... At least that's what my friends who are PnP D&D fans say...

Not necessarily, although it does constitute much of the fun in D&D.  Unfortunately, its a random dice generator in all CRPGs, D&D included, so already, no dice.

The dice are a method to handle the rules, and Dragon Age and other games have shown it can be done in other ways on a computer to distance the player from the rules and bring him into the world/story (which is what D&D builds).

But I agree, I love the physical dice.  But other than the microsoft table implementation, or to a lesser extent temple of elemental evil, dice aren't what they are in table top in any Neverwinter or NWN version since you remove the physical aspect.

The idea that Neverwinter is a hack and slash isn't set yet.  They haven't installed all the skills etc in the current edition of the engine (which likely means 2011 release is a bit overpromising).  If it ends up being Witcher style hack and slash, then definitely not my cup of tea.  If it focuses on a Dragon Age or NeverwinterNights2 style of game play, then I could be swayed to play it for long hours.  Both focus on tactics and position which allow for a fun D&D type experience.

@Pain: Lego D&D!!!!  What a genius idea!  If Atari was smart they would jump all over this to market D&D to a new generation.  I'm Jealous I didn't think of it.

You also seam to have a good grip of the current state of Neverwinter.  If you hear more info regarding Neverwinter that may interest NWN2 type fans, feel free to post updates in this thread.  I can't be bothered with the Neverwinter facebook page.  Facebook just drives me squirly and I can only stand being on it for a few minutes a week.

Modifié par foil-, 22 juin 2011 - 03:32 .

[Pompeii69]

I'm certainly not a D&D guru, having close to no idea about the rulesets, but what I do like about NWN2 and DA:O (and Freedom Force for that matter) is the pause & play mode. I enjoy thinking things through, planning out my attack strategy, and giving my party member their orders, then playing it out when I un-pause. It is far more gratifying to me. The Action-RPG, or hack-n-slash genre just holds little appeal to me.

[kamal_]

Freedom Force was indeed a sweet game, though if you saved your points for a bit you could make an unstoppable hero. I built an unstoppable hero after the first issue/act. He beat the rest of the game solo, which was certainly not the designers intent.

[Axe_Edge]

 If you missed it, in episode 144, the NWN Podcast interviews Neverwinter's executive director Shane Hensley.  He tells a lot of details about the new game and backgrounds for the Cryptic team.  It was a good listen.  You don't have to wait long to get to the interview.

nwnpodcast.com

Modifié par Axe_Edge, 02 juillet 2011 - 01:03 .

[kamal_]

Axe_Edge wrote...

 If you missed it, in episode 144, the NWN Podcast interviews Neverwinter's executive director Shane Hensley.  He tells a lot of details about the new game and backgrounds for the Cryptic team.  It was a good listen.  You don't have to wait long to get to the interview.

nwnpodcast.com

 according to Shane Hensley, the Executive Producer of Neverwinter:
You can hire Drizzt as a henchman ...

:sick::sick:

[Mysstic1]

Hopefully that means you can hire Drizzt as a henchman in order to intentionally send him ahead by himself to watch him get ganged up on and die, over and over and over...

What? Am I the only one who wants to do that?

[M. Rieder]

kamal_ wrote...

Axe_Edge wrote...

 If you missed it, in episode 144, the NWN Podcast interviews Neverwinter's executive director Shane Hensley.  He tells a lot of details about the new game and backgrounds for the Cryptic team.  It was a good listen.  You don't have to wait long to get to the interview.

nwnpodcast.com

 according to Shane Hensley, the Executive Producer of Neverwinter:
You can hire Drizzt as a henchman ...

:sick::sick:

"hire" him?  That seems a little.... odd.  I can only imagine what the price would be. 

[foil-]

Axe_Edge wrote...

 If you missed it, in episode 144, the NWN Podcast interviews Neverwinter's executive director Shane Hensley.  He tells a lot of details about the new game and backgrounds for the Cryptic team.  It was a good listen.  You don't have to wait long to get to the interview.

nwnpodcast.com

Great find.  Here's an important quote from Shane Hensley from the podcast:

"It's not an MMO, that's really important to us that people understand it's an online role playing game, not an MMO.  I think you'll find that the powers feel rather MMO like, but the reason why is that D&D 4th edition powers feel kind of MMO like."

Also: "it's not an MMO, but that's where it's roots are"

There is also some talk that the game will have "some of the best traps you'll see in a game" where you can use some of the push back powers to force a critter back into a trap.

There is also a statement that the city of Neverwinter is persistent, while the dungeons/adventuring aspects are instanced. 

Modifié par foil-, 02 juillet 2011 - 03:13 .

[foil-]

Small update: The Neverwinter forums quietly opened about a month ago:

linky: http://forums.playneverwinter.com/

It seems pretty clear that the forge won't have the flexibility of the NWN2 toolset (at release), but it will have an ease of use factor that should encourage plenty of development of minimodules.

[Lord Drakkon]

kamal_ wrote...
 according to Shane Hensley, the Executive Producer of Neverwinter:
You can hire Drizzt as a henchman ...

:sick::sick:

This is not what he said, he said you would meet a famous drow ranger...or that he may come to your assistance.  Never said anything about hiring him as a henchman....

[kamal_]

Lord Drakkon wrote...

kamal_ wrote...
 according to Shane Hensley, the Executive Producer of Neverwinter:
You can hire Drizzt as a henchman ...

:sick::sick:

This is not what he said, he said you would meet a famous drow ranger...or that he may come to your assistance.  Never said anything about hiring him as a henchman....

From 24:00 to 25:00, he discusses henchmen you can hire, and says you can hired named characters from the lore, including "a certain whirlwind of desctruction". You can tell from his voice he really, really, wants to drop the name, and Drizzt's known for being a whirlwind in action thanks to his speed.

[NWN DM]

Hire D, take him to an alley, insert 750 +15 shanks and get yourself a few nice swords.

[kamal_]

Someone posted on the neverwinter online forums about how happy he is to see dnd in a modern game engine. I replied "sneak peak" and posted a screenshot of Crimmor, not saying it's nwn2. This should be fun.

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

@kamalpoe, got a link?

[Hellfire_RWS]

Lugaid of the Red Stripes wrote...

@kamalpoe, got a link?

forums.playneverwinter.com/showthread.php

Modifié par Hellfire_RWS, 29 juillet 2011 - 01:00 .

[kamal_]

Too many familiar with nwn2...
http://forums.playne...p?t=4297&page=3

[-Semper-]

kamal_ wrote...

Someone posted on the neverwinter online forums about how happy he is to see dnd in a modern game engine. I replied "sneak peak" and posted a screenshot of Crimmor, not saying it's nwn2. This should be fun.

your area is looking great but you can't deny the fact that electron clearly shows its age :innocent: