161 réponses à ce sujet

[Shallina]

For area, only TW2 looks better than NWN2 for MED fan games that aren't MMO.

Mostly beceause of the lightning that is really impressive in NWN2.

[BartjeD]

With all high resolution textures on the vault I'm not really impressed with the way it looks.
What I do like is the creatures they have.

NWN2 could use more creatures and variations!

[kamal_]

@Semper: what Shallina says is pretty much true (though it's both The Witcher 2 and Two Worlds 2, plus Oblivion). NWN2 handles light and soft effects such as fog extremely well. NW online hasn't really shown anything that I dont think NWN2 could do as far as areas, DA1/2 either (admittedly you'd need some custom tiles for the high interiors). I think my city shot compares favorably to the NWO official shots of Neverwinter.

NWO does have higher poly models with more detailed textures. I suspect you could safely make similar poly models in NWN2 now with current vid cards.

Modifié par kamal_, 29 juillet 2011 - 09:48 .

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

Shame you got called out, kamal. Maybe someone should do a tongue-in-cheek facebook page for a "new Neverwinter Nights" game with a collection of new module screenshots and a list of all the community-generated features (dozens of classes, 1000+ hours of gameplay, 5 years of bugfixes).

[the.gray.fox]

I do not know about all this MMO stuff.
But I have learned of a few universal truths in my life.
And here is one:
<< the blanket is short >>

You pull it to cover more on one end.
You inevitably uncover more of the other end.

As good as it looks their graphics, to maintain all that they are giving away something of equal value.
But of course they will not tell you what it is.

Makes sense. When you sell something --> you lead with the good, not with the bad.
Meditate, folks.


-fox

[painofdungeoneternal]

Should post some screen shots of NWN1 areas. Those look pretty amazing with the new tilesets and improved textures.

It's not the age of the engine that matters, it's the talent of the artists. If i had my choice i'd get graphics and story telling from Order of the Stick.

NWN2 is something WE can do, we don't need no stinking devs. And very little they are doing in NWO is outside of what we can do, and i bet quite a few things we are doing are actually way beyond the scope of NWO.

[kamal_]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Should post some screen shots of NWN1 areas. Those look pretty amazing with the new tilesets and improved textures.

Tup, sixthrice (I think) has produced some amazing tilesets recently.

[The Fred]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...
It's not the age of the engine that matters, it's the talent of the artists.

Hence I actually prefer BG1's graphics to NWN's.

[-Semper-]

Shallina wrote...

For area, only TW2 looks better than NWN2 for MED fan games that aren't MMO.
Mostly beceause of the lightning that is really impressive in NWN2.

med? are you calling for medievel? else i dunno what that means^^
almost every current engine can produce better looking areas than electron. this engine has nice realtime lighting but the shadows are "horrible", the polycount is very low, the farclip is limited and there is no way to build vista objects, billboards aside.

i ain't gonna say that nwn2 is ugly but there is not much room for improvements in the lacking parts^^

[Shallina]

But hose engine aren't used for mediaval fantastic single player game.

Look at DA with its ugly lightning and ugly three for exemple. Basically you can find better looking game for PC only title. But as soon as they are cross platform, they aren't.

And nowadays almost all single player and Lan game are cross platform.

Modifié par Shallina, 29 juillet 2011 - 10:31 .

[kamal_]

-Semper-

Award winning DAO level. (I realize it's not Amrapahel's problem DAO ground texturing is gawd awful.)
600x300http://www.dragonagenexus.com/downloads/images/1673-2-1284291126.jpg[/img]

NWN2, stock from the ugly engine that can't compete, no redone textures.
600x300http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3879894/crimmor/wheel_ward1.jpg[/img]

600x300http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3879894/crimmor/wheel1.jpg[/img]

Modifié par kamal_, 29 juillet 2011 - 11:12 .

[-Semper-]

Shallina wrote...

Look at DA with its ugly lightning and ugly three for exemple.

the lighting isn't ugly. eclipseray is horrible, which was provided by a bio dev so that the community is able to create their own levels. there is nothing wrong with the baked maps in da:o

Shallina wrote...

But hose engine aren't used for mediaval fantastic single player game.

do you really think that the udk, cryengine sdk, unity3d or even ogre are not able to recreate a medievel rpg with stunning area design?^^

kamal wrote...

Award winning DAO level. (I realize it's not Amrapahel's problem DAO ground texturing is gawd awful.)
NWN2, stock from the ugly engine that can't compete, no redone textures.

the uv space of the ground texture is customizeable within the toolset so it's clearly the lack of the creator's skill. if you put enough effort into a level you can create stunning areas within the da:o toolset, it's just a matter of time. btw my point was not that nwn2 is ugly (which it ain't!) but that it clearly shows the years. in nwn2 you simply can't create an area and call it next gen :innocent:

Modifié par -Semper-, 29 juillet 2011 - 11:31 .

[kamal_]

-Semper- wrote...
in nwn2 you simply can't create an area and call it next gen :innocent:

Perhaps this is the time to ask you what you mean by "next gen"? Or show us what you consider an exemplary outdoor area from DA 1/2, which is a current gen engine. The area I picked was from the content in your link.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Next gen is overrated, to me if it gets past my suspension of disbelief it works. To me most games have been doing that for a long time, especially after you get past the intro video and have been playing it for 10 minutes and the game itself does not suck as a game.

The continuous need for more polygons, more resolution, more physics does not improve the actual game itself, it just forces gamers to get the latest and greatest computer. The gaming industry is trying so hard to copy the movie industry, and i think quite a few gamers even see games as interactive movies, it's missing the things that made games their own art form, and making games so expensive to make that the game makers are not willing to take any risks.

The toolset for dragon age and that of NWN2 are not that far apart, dragon age does have things NWN2 cannot do, but it also skips many things NWN2 handles very well, lacks many nice touches like day/night cycles, dynamic shadows. Most of the difference is that dragon age skips some features which challenge the GPU's more, not good or bad but really basic design decisions which make it able to handle consoles and it also got released long after NWN2 which meant they had more polygons ( they both started making the games at about the same time ). At the end of the day how good the area looks is up to the guy making the area, and remember that those screen shots are from amateurs while NWO isn't. NWN1, NWN2 and DA are for most intents and purposes the same family of games, with NWN1 basically being the father and NWN2 and DA the two siblings.

The real difference is that NWN2 was rushed, is lacking much polish which arrived with the last patch and with the community itself. Most people have a first impression of the game and no matter what you say, they assume its exactly as it was on first release. I found it funny how the poster stated that the area would probably not run well on their system, they probably are comparing the 1.0 version which was a real mess on their previous computer. To me it is more of a lesson that rushing a game is suicide, and that NWN2 would have been much better if the publisher was EA instead of atari. Most of the marketing Dragon Age had could easily been applied to NWN2.

NWO is good enough graphics wise. It still is a MMO which is trying to sell subscriptions or in game content to the crowds of single player gamers. It has a good writer. And it likely is going to make a lot of money since the engine is using the cryptic engine. Note that it's not a next generation game engine either, but since the models, terrain, areas, are all new it will look very nice.

[foil-]

I don't think Neverwinter will replace either NWN1 or NWN2. Its a creation of its own and it seems to be very focused on what it wants to be. It will start with some basic classes, offer a very basic toolset for amatures, and have continuous support of an MMO (although I would liken it more to a game like left4dead coop). I'm intrigued that its main intent is to push well rounded party coop play which will add to the fun of D&D if they do it well. I'm also very excited about the "Heroes of Neverwinter" facebook game which looks like a throwback to the gold box turn based games except with better graphics.

Modifié par foil-, 30 juillet 2011 - 04:02 .

[Shallina]

--
do you really think that the udk, cryengine sdk, unity3d or even ogre are not able to recreate a medievel rpg with stunning area design?^^
--

Of course they can, but none has done it.

With if you can remake the world. But when I look at what exist nowadays, those "next gen" are only used correctly for MMO.

As soon as you make a cross platform game like DA or DA2 you are in for some really ugly limitation.

And the lightning even in the original DAO with the real lightning mapper is ugly. The area are always rendered blurred.

DAO got impressive character and animation. But when you are speaking of area and what you can do with them it's behind NWN2. And those impressive character and animation were actuially to much for console, that's why they rolled back with DA2 and didn't made them as good as they were in the the first game. Instead of improving them.

I am not looking at what could have been done, I am looking at what have been done. And I am still looking for a next gen game "single player /lan game" like NWN2 or NWN. But so far none has been made.

Modifié par Shallina, 30 juillet 2011 - 07:40 .

[-Semper-]

kamal_ wrote...

Perhaps this is the time to ask you what you mean by "next gen"? Or show us what you consider an exemplary outdoor area from DA 1/2, which is a current gen engine.

eclipse ain't next gen. this engine is years old too packed with some tech stuff to make it shiny today.  but you can create some nice areas too like this one: pic

but that was not the point. you can't beat the detail of current engines like red engine, unreal3 or cryengine. even unity3d creates immersive stuff. btw the props in the cryengine vid are not textured. the detail is through polygons. now pls don't come with the fact that those are no rpg... you can rewrite this part of the engine and still use the render output for a rpg

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

The continuous need for more polygons, more resolution, more physics
does not improve the actual game itself, it just forces gamers to get
the latest and greatest computer.

that's true. graphics doesn't make smooth or fun gameplay. with artistic levels you even don't need high resolution textures or masses of polygongs. but with all this stuff you can create amazing things like huge levels, streamed worlds and amazing sight views. this all helps to delve into the atmosphere.

shallina wrote...

And the lightning even in the original DAO with the real lightning mapper is ugly. The area are always rendered blurred.

screens pls?

shallina wrote...

And those impressive character and animation were actuially to much for
console, that's why they rolled back with DA2 and didn't made them as
good as they were in the the first game. Instead of improving them.

that's a completely false statement! in da2 characters have more polygons, bones and animation cycles than in da:o. they have to reduce the polycount of the areas and props to stop console's hickups which resulted in damn ugly and boring area design. they tried to sell us this fact as artistic decision... together with other lies but that's clearly the fault of bioware. the whole company needs good tech programmers which they simply don't have. they suck in engine creation, period.

Modifié par -Semper-, 30 juillet 2011 - 10:30 .

[Shallina]

HAHA, no DA2 character have clearly less poly than DAO, just look at the ogre it's so obvious it's hurting the eye. Area as well have less poly.
This was done so they could use a better lightning renderer, in DA2 there isn't that ugly blured effect wich can be found everywhere in DAO. With better lightning the visual feel of the game is improved even with less poly, beceause texture becommes more sharp, as objects wich forms and angle aren't blurred unlike in DAO.

All of this for beeing able to run the game on XBOX and PS3. Small CPU power ---> limitation and compromise everywhere. That's why NWN2 area have the possibility to be way ahead. No artificial limitation of the engine in NWN2, since the target platform isn't 6+ years outdated hardware.

Also the poly angle of charactesr and equipment can clearly be seen in DA2, while they are clearly more smoth in DAO. there are plenty of screen and thread that compare those aspect of those 2 games in the DAO and DA2 forums .

And there is no need to try to convince me, I have  all those games, and a computer good enought to run all of them at max setting without any trouble. And the one with better area is TW2, followed by NWN2, the others are clearly behind.

Modifié par Shallina, 30 juillet 2011 - 12:12 .

[JasonNH]

kamal_ wrote...

Perhaps this is the time to ask you what you mean by "next gen"? Or show us what you consider an exemplary outdoor area from DA 1/2, which is a current gen engine. The area I picked was from the content in your link.

Amstrad's level was made for a level design contest with a deadline. I believe that he took something that was partially done and tried to polish it up as much as possible for the deadline, but I don't think it is indicative of his best efforts, nor the ultimate capabilities of the level editor. We've had these kinds of discussions before. I spent over a year on a DA team doing nothing but exterior level design and I have a lot of experience with the NWN2 editor as well. Each one has its advanatages. I would say that DAO can produce a better still shot, but you do lose something with the baked shadow map that gives NWN2 a more living and breathing atmosphere. I like both of them, and agree with much of what Pain had to say.

*edit* - Here is an example of better ground textuting kamal, not to mention more control over things like tesselation that NWN2 can not provide

480x294http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu292/JasonNH/Dragon%20Age/Mage%20of%20the%20Blood/River%20Ford/mbcfroadshdw3.jpg[/img]

Modifié par JasonNH, 30 juillet 2011 - 12:58 .

[kamal_]

JasonNH wrote...

kamal_ wrote...

Perhaps this is the time to ask you what you mean by "next gen"? Or show us what you consider an exemplary outdoor area from DA 1/2, which is a current gen engine. The area I picked was from the content in your link.

Amstrad's level was made for a level design contest with a deadline. I believe that he took something that was partially done and tried to polish it up as much as possible for the deadline, but I don't think it is indicative of his best efforts, nor the ultimate capabilities of the level editor. We've had these kinds of discussions before. I spent over a year on a DA team doing nothing but exterior level design and I have a lot of experience with the NWN2 editor as well. Each one has its advanatages. I would say that DAO can produce a better still shot, but you do lose something with the baked shadow map that gives NWN2 a more living and breathing atmosphere. I like both of them, and agree with much of what Pain had to say.

*edit* - Here is an example of better ground textuting kamal, not to mention more control over things like tesselation that NWN2 can not provide

480x294http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu292/JasonNH/Dragon%20Age/Mage%20of%20the%20Blood/River%20Ford/mbcfroadshdw3.jpg[/img]

2 hours in the NWN2 toolset. :happy:
480x294http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Arkur0fkYgs/TKKaQ9lFYdI/AAAAAAAAA5s/dH7RfLUSw7Q/s1600/esv_jungle_deep_random2.JPG[/img]

480x294http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Arkur0fkYgs/TKKaNBd32CI/AAAAAAAAA5o/Dq8T3ZIwvjM/s1600/esv_jungle_deep_random.JPG[/img]

It's indicative of the problem with super advanced toolsets. To actually do anything than even looks halfway decent takes way too long. Unless the STO forge gets some large upgrades in capabilities, it's just not going to work very well for telling more complicated stories.

[-Semper-]

Shallina wrote...

HAHA, no DA2 character have clearly less poly than DAO, just look at the ogre it's so obvious it's hurting the eye. Area as well have less poly.
This was done so they could use a better lightning renderer, in DA2 there isn't that ugly blured effect wich can be found everywhere in DAO.

i cannot speak for the ogre, but the pc and companions have more polys, bones and anim cycles. just import them into 3d package and look for yourself. i don't have to use my imagination by looking at a screen, i've got the facts

btw i am missing those screens where you show me the blurred and bad baked lightmap.

Shallina wrote...
No artificial limitation of the engine in NWN2, since the target platform isn't 6+ years outdated hardware.

that's kinda funny because electron was built years ago with the current hardware of that time in mind. by your words it's horribly outdated too oO

Shallina wrote...

And the one with better area is TW2, followed by NWN2, the others are clearly behind.

for the last time: i am not here to say that nwn2 is ugly... i found it funny how kamal tried to post a screen to lure people into a next gen trap with an engine clearly showing it's age. nothing more

Modifié par -Semper-, 30 juillet 2011 - 02:44 .

[Shallina]

In the award DAO level the blurred effect start at the house for exemple.

What cripple DA&DA2 graphics is the lack of dynamic lightning.

Modifié par Shallina, 30 juillet 2011 - 03:13 .

[-Semper-]

Shallina wrote...

In the award DAO level the blurred effect start at the house for exemple.

first i don't see a blurred zone. second a baked lightmap has absolutely nothing to do with a blurry effect. those effects can be a dof feature or even jpeg compression. third i spoke about vanilla da:o content which you claim to be damn ugly with those baked lighting.

you're fast with words but lack in evidences^^

[Shallina]

I am not here to convince you, I have played all those game, and I have seen it for myself, as every gamer with a descent computer . If DAO was the better option it would be the one I'd use. Sadly it's not, coming after NWN2 I hoped for improvement, but the few improvement of DAO are crippled by to many things that went backward.

And it's no use to get angry at me, I am not responsible for all the flaws of DAO engine and toolset and lack of support wich all together made the modding community really slim for that game.

Modifié par Shallina, 30 juillet 2011 - 03:23 .

[-Semper-]

Shallina wrote...

I am not here to convince you, I have played all those game, and I have seen it for myself, as every gamer with a descent computer

don't worry. i haven't got the latest tech but i can max out those games too. now if you could explain how a baked map, which is only a diffuse texture with an alpha channel, can blur a scene then i am glad and will acknowledge what you're trying to say.

Shallina wrote...

If DAO was the better option it would be the one I'd use. Sadly it's not, coming after NWN2 I hoped for improvement, but the few improvement of DAO are crippled by to many things that went backward.

imo here lies the root of your bitterness - defending nwn2 to the death^^

Shallina wrote...

And it's no use to get angry at me, I am not responsible for all the
flaws of DAO engine and toolset and lack of support wich all together
made the modding community really slim for that game.

i am not mad at anyone. personally i love modding in nwn2 more than da:o too because there are simply way more rpg elements. and it's faster to create custom props because of the last gen tech

Modifié par -Semper-, 30 juillet 2011 - 03:28 .