161 réponses à ce sujet

[dunniteowl]

All true, foil-, though words are not deeds and many a word spoken turns out to be somewhat altered in form when the rubber meets the road -- or when the game goes gold. Which is why I have adopted a "wait and see" attitude. I am skeptical, though as a practicing traditional cynic who is also an optimist, I am hopeful.

I certainly won't (though can and might even enjoy) mince words and get into semantics on the difference between subscription play versus additional books, new content, sheets, dice, etc and how they may or may not be similar. Suffice to say that, in the long run, I still have all my 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition materials (only each: PHB, DMG & MM and then in 1st Ed. Fiend Folio and MM2) and all the additional materials I purchased beyond those were bought recently at great deal prices.

Once bought, they remain in my care and retain their value to me. Then again, I do write all my own modules and campaigns for my PnP related stuff. I do agree, though, that I would happily purchase more Adventure Packs. One for the fact that someone else's adventure is a surprise to me, and the other to support the concept of breathing more life and energy into the gaming community. Another Atari mis-step, as referred to above. Other than that, I do agree with you.

dno
(news of my demise being greatly exaggerated, I rise from the ashes like a phoenix owl!)

[MokahTGS]

dunniteowl wrote...

(news of my demise being greatly exaggerated, I rise from the ashes like a phoenix owl!)

and we have a new profile pic for you...

What frustrates me the most about NWO and Atari's marketing in general is that no one will give a straight answer to exactly what NWO is.
They have said multiple things:

• NWO will have a central server to play on.
• NWO will be a co-op RPG, not an MMO
• NWO will allow module adventure creation from a tool designed for MMO adventure creation.

If we were to take this information and compare it to current games, NWO would be closer akin to Guildwars, than anything else.  There is central areas where players meet, party up and then go play on instanced areas.  If that is the case, I wish they would just say so.  The difference between Guildwars and Left4Dead as far as structure is huge, because it has direct impact on how Foundry is used.

On Foundry, I'm very concerned with the restrictions they will have in place for module creation.  Currently, STO's Foundry has so many building restrictions that I don't have any interest in it.  However, STO is an MMO and they have to restrict a lot to keep the MMO environment stable and working.  In an Left4Dead type environment, Foundry can be a little more free as far as building flexibility, since they do not have to worry about MMO stability.  If there isn't a world ranking, and ecconomy then what happens in user made modules is irrelevant.

If however NWO has a player ranking or player ecconomy (Auction House) then they are, for all intents and purposes, an MMO and Foundry would not change a whole lot from its current state.  I do not see how it can be any other way if certain things are true.

The problem here is which truth is true?

[NWN DM]

The reality of game development these days is that straight answers to straight questions will reveal just how lacking the title is in most aspects of what would be required to make it anything other than a "buy, play for a few months (if that) and forget about it" title.

IMO obviously... I could be wrong I suppose.

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

It seems to me that a big issue is that Rule 0 and House Rules are really important to DnD gameplay, that the stock rule set is too cumbersome for anyone to play as-is, and so any gaming session involves focusing on just one aspect of the rule set, and simplifying the rest. If quests are instanced, that may give players a chance to tweak the 'house rules' before they set off, like a group of poker players deciding on the ante, game and wilds before they deal. The chips still count the same, but each game can be different.

[VeeVito]

Well, as a STO player at launch and recent return to check out the state of the game, I sympathise with Cryptic in terms of what I sense is the situation.

At least from my own observations. I've played Champions Online and Star Trek Online. They seem to have much more on their plate than they have the capability to deal with in terms of raw numbers of people to deal with it all.

There is so much that players of STO have been asking for, yet the game is finally, almost, at a state that it should have been at release a year and a half ago to garner a decent release state rating. Almost. Still much to be desired. Yet, instead of perfecting the games they have to make good, they further dilute their already seemingly scarce resources to take on a new project when all indicators point to that being a recipe for disaster.

As well as taking time to create something that has little gameplay value like incorporating Starfleet Academy as a location to visit. Very cool if the game was caught up, but not something I would think needs resources at this point.

It's odd. Unless they are content with being regarded as mediocre.

As DNO said before, there were and are alot of promises from them that are more words than deeds and the foundry in STO, while a good idea, seems to have been not much more than a means to shrug off actual proffesional development of content from them to the fan base to quell the masses while they decide what their direction is.

Maybe that will work in NWO better since it isn't an MMO (I think, who knows). And that modules seem to be the core. I don't even know if there is a campaign.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen a proper NWN3 SP game with an evolutionary PW/player created module system built in, but that's just me I guess. Unless that IS what they are doing. As also mentioned, who knows, they are way too tight lipped for a potential October release date to be looming.

I'll end by saying that they are also odd in that they have their moments of greatness. There are some truly awesome quest arcs in STO that a Star Trek geek like me can love, but they are like high points that stand out from all the low points, rather than the other way around, if that makes sense.

I hope I am wrong this time and can eat crow whenever it's released.

[dunniteowl]

Well, I am fairly certain that, no matter what Cryptic *is* doing with NWO, it is *not* going to be anything close to what anyone here who has played (or still plays) NWN and NWN2 would see as an NWN3. When I state this, I refer to a SP centric game system, provided with a toolset and the ability to multiplay (whether or not the PW system would be initially incorporated on release.) All the verbage so far, from Atari, from WotC, from Cryptic, indicates that this is a MMO-Lite or MMO-Like system with instancing and persistent portions, limited ability to create within that environment to the point where it's less of a toolset and more of a map maker that you can use Dev Only Assets to populate it and that's pretty much it.

This can (I think even the instancing might be possible) be done with NWN and NWN2. Also there is so much more ability and capability with NWN and NWN2 relative to what's been said and what's been indicated that comparisons of NWO as a NWN3 candidate are either wholly inadequate or are the subject of pukability (that's barfable concept) of the highest order.

All that said, NWO could be quite fun. And that said, it doesn't mean NWO = fun = As good or better than NWN/2 or even remotely equivalent.

Hear me, my minions of modding, this official prophesy shall come to pass. (who who who me?)

dno

[dunniteowl]

And Mokah, me likey that image.

[painofdungeoneternal]

I think they are hoping if they describe it constantly as a Single player game, they might tempt a few extra souls who "Hate" MMO's for which there are a plethora of. Those folks will come and give it a shot because they love Neverwinter Nights and hear how it's a single player game, and a few of them will stick around because they care far more about D&D/Neverwinter/Drizzt than they do about the mechanics of the game itself.

The folks who play STO, or the MMO's will look at it and just dive in because they really like MMO's, especially when they remove the monthly charges and make it free to play ( cept the need to pay to unlock any premium classes ).

Same reason Dragon age, a single player game posted articles and interviews at some MMO centric site, saying it was "possible" at some point to become a PW tool like NWN is. Awful lot of folks who strongly prefer multiplayer were trying to convince me to leave NWN2 because dragon age was going to completely replace it. ( there is still talk of it becoming a MMO at this point, which is again far short of what we can do with PW's ) Hopefully people start focusing less on what the hype engine says, and look closer at what they do and have done in the past.

[Hellfire_RWS]

I will be glad to see NWO come along. I will probably even play it. My days of NWN1 and NWN2 are nearing an end. I'm so tired of trying to find a PW that suits me. Its far easier to find a good online game and play it with my friends without having some Crazy PVPer kill me and ruin my fun, or some power hungry admin of a server watching your every move making sure I play the way they want.

Everyone is so quick to point out what a PW can offer a MMO can't. Lets not forget there are things a MMO can offer no PW can.

[painofdungeoneternal]

I don't think we can forget that. An MMO is like a 20,000 pound elephant compared to a PW.

It is much like david and goliath, only by being creative and original can a PW compete in any way, while a MMO will end up catering to the mass market to ensure survival.

What is unique is that we ourselves can be the dictators, instead of having to agree to a single overlord, and we can choose who is in our community and who is not. An MMO has a corporation as the dictator.

And of course it's about rule zero and being creative. Which leads to open source, iphone apps and unity type engines and not to modding anothers game.

I imagine a game which does not really have the option of creating models, scripts, or other major projects can really appeal to someone who has built so much which the entire community is using. I am a bit burned out myself with things, but i am trying to keep the torch lit enough so i can resume.

There is a place for both MMO's, SP games and PW's, I don't want to say if it's good or bad, however we need to wait for release as most of how it's described is hype and it will do a lot better if we keep expectations low and take it as it is, instead of building NWO up into everything we dreamed Baldur's gate, NWN1, and NWN2 should have been, then getting angry at how it turned out to just be another game.

As usual it's the owl who is the wise one, who says "wait and see". We will find out, and hopefully we can party up together if they ever offer a free version for us deadbeats like they did for DDO.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 03 août 2011 - 11:30 .

[Hellfire_RWS]

I put the torch out, last week. I sat down, made a list of the things I need to finish (horses). When they are done, I'm turning off the lights, locking the door, and moving on.

While I do think the freedom to make your own private world and run it the way you want, is a great thing. It is no longer for me. Hopefully I can actually hang on to finish my projects before walking off.

[Shallina]

Ankheg ?

[Dann-J]

Shallina wrote...
Ankheg ?

And I'm still waiting for frickin' sharks with frickin' laser beams attached to their frickin' heads...

[VeeVito]

Oh, and I didn't mean to disparage Cryptic. I'm just not sure how they can possibly do this properly when they seem so stretched thin already. That leads to cut corners, broken promises and a thin game. But, I do think they are a decent company when the resources are available. Some of their stuff is very good.

Anyway, apparently it will be single player playable with henchmen, but with an overarching emphasis on not doing that and encouraging people to go through it with other people.

That's fine, and I hope it pans out. I guess i'm personally just tired of the online thing at this point. If I want that kind of thing i'll jump into Lotro or Rift (which do it well) and soon SWTOR and have a grand old time bustling about an open world with others.

I've always considered the NWN games, and others of its ilk, to be SP focused and as such a nice little retreat when, frankly, I had had enough of other people and just wanted to slip into a fantasy world alone.

Kind of like going to a mountain cabin or camping for the weekend to get away from it all.

That's just me though. I like the distinct difference to be available and maybe it will be.

Modifié par VeeVito, 04 août 2011 - 11:01 .

[Hellfire_RWS]

VeeVito wrote...

That's fine, and I hope it pans out. I guess i'm personally just tired of the online thing at this point. If I want that kind of thing i'll jump into Lotro or Rift (which do it well) and soon SWTOR and have a grand old time bustling about an open world with others.

I'm on LOTRO with a great group of friends.  I have been in some of the best RP I have had in a game since my Avlis (NWN) days.  

What server do you play on?

[VeeVito]

Hellfire_RWS wrote...

VeeVito wrote...

That's fine, and I hope it pans out. I guess i'm personally just tired of the online thing at this point. If I want that kind of thing i'll jump into Lotro or Rift (which do it well) and soon SWTOR and have a grand old time bustling about an open world with others.

I'm on LOTRO with a great group of friends.  I have been in some of the best RP I have had in a game since my Avlis (NWN) days.  

What server do you play on?

I'm on Gladden since 2007. It's the longest continuing sub i've ever had on an mmo. Sept.2007-roughly early 2011 i think. But i've let my subscription to lotro lapse into F2P status or premium or whatever it's called over the past few months. I don't like what they did with the whole free to play thing and the store etc... but the game is good.

I'll be re-upping for Rise of Isengard though. I still log into my hunter every now and then though because the atmosphere of the world they made over there is so great and it's fun even if i'm doing nothing more than hunting critters to pad my wallet. Most of the F2P restricitons don't affect him, as far as I can tell, since i've had him for years and he's been at the level cap for a while now.

Been dabbling with Rift too, but slowly finding myself less and less interested in mmo's in general.

At the moment i'm jumping back into BG and NWN, IWD etc.. for some (surprisingly timeless) fun. Like I said, i've just been burned out by the online thing for a while now. But it is fun to hop back on every now and then if that's what i'm in the mood for. Plus, a break from that is what i need if i even want to think of starting another mmo in the form of SWTOR or trying ROI when it launches.

That's why I would have preferred a more SP focused thing for a new Neverwinter game. But, we shall see.

Modifié par VeeVito, 04 août 2011 - 05:24 .

[Hellfire_RWS]

I am on Landroval. I pre purchased Rise of Isengard, and I'm working to get my hunter through Moria (lvl 58)
I also have a Rune Keeper (lvl 42) and a Warden (lvl 25)

LOTRO is a fantastic game, for just action or RP.

[E.C.Patterson]

Hellfire_RWS wrote...

I put the torch out, last week. I sat down, made a list of the things I need to finish (horses). When they are done, I'm turning off the lights, locking the door, and moving on.

While I do think the freedom to make your own private world and run it the way you want, is a great thing. It is no longer for me. Hopefully I can actually hang on to finish my projects before walking off.

:'(

[dunniteowl]

You mean they're going to release an MMO called Return On Investment? Awesome! I bet it's all stock markets, and purchasing orders, capital investments and EBITDA statements. Remember, past performance is no guaranty of future earnings.

I'll be a Corporate Raider, I hear they get all the chicks. Maybe even a Company Trouble Shooter, those are badass too!

dunniteowl

[kamal_]

dunniteowl wrote...

Maybe even a Company Trouble Shooter, those are badass too!

dunniteowl

I proposed a Paranoia style PW not too long ago.

[VeeVito]

dunniteowl wrote...

You mean they're going to release an MMO called Return On Investment? Awesome! I bet it's all stock markets, and purchasing orders, capital investments and EBITDA statements. Remember, past performance is no guaranty of future earnings.

I'll be a Corporate Raider, I hear they get all the chicks. Maybe even a Company Trouble Shooter, those are badass too!

dunniteowl

That's funny. I remember a game on the ColecoVision I think that was about running for president. As far as I recall it was a game where you had to do things to manage a campaign for an election.....hard to believe at the time and still is.

[M. Rieder]

Hellfire_RWS wrote...

I put the torch out, last week. I sat down, made a list of the things I need to finish (horses). When they are done, I'm turning off the lights, locking the door, and moving on.

While I do think the freedom to make your own private world and run it the way you want, is a great thing. It is no longer for me. Hopefully I can actually hang on to finish my projects before walking off.

We are all grateful for everything you've done.  All the best!

[kamal_]

Hellfire_RWS wrote...

I put the torch out, last week. I sat down, made a list of the things I need to finish (horses). When they are done, I'm turning off the lights, locking the door, and moving on.

While I do think the freedom to make your own private world and run it the way you want, is a great thing. It is no longer for me. Hopefully I can actually hang on to finish my projects before walking off.

[Darth Vader voice]Nooooooooo!!!!![/Darth Vader voice]

Have fun playing!

[MasterChanger]

Hellfire_RWS wrote...

I put the torch out, last week. I sat down, made a list of the things I need to finish (horses). When they are done, I'm turning off the lights, locking the door, and moving on.

While I do think the freedom to make your own private world and run it the way you want, is a great thing. It is no longer for me. Hopefully I can actually hang on to finish my projects before walking off.

Few could be said to have given more, or more selflessly, to the NWN community than you, Hellfire. You gotta do whatever's right for you. No one can contribute to one type of project forever.

It's interesting that you mention the freedom inherent in NWN and it not being for you anymore. I've tried some MMOs (including LotRO as Free-to-Play). While some of them have involved less effort than playing NWN2 and being part of this community, I could not avoid the feeling of being spoon-fed something by the professionals, of ceding my responsibility to think critically about the gaming experience I want to help build.

Hellfire_RWS wrote...
I'm on LOTRO with a great group of friends.  I have been in some of the best RP I have had in a game since my Avlis (NWN) days.  

I love roleplaying in a Middle-Earth context (I spent more than a year and a half as a major builder and then admin of a M.E. PW for NWN2 before leaving due to creative differences). I did find that LotRO captured some of the spirit that Tolkien infused into his work, and that some choices were boldly different from other MMOs that I've seen (using Hope and Dread as part of storylines allows an interesting RP-gameplay convergence, for example).

I did not try much RP as part of playing LotRO with other players, though I certainly did as part of the storylines and environments. One factor was certainly that I did not approach it together with a group of roleplayers whom I knew well.

However, there were two major limitations to my enjoyment of RP in LotRO, limitations it shares with other MMOs. The first limitation was what I felt to be an absence of intimacy. Since characterization--playing the role--drives roleplay for me, my character must be able to get to know other characters well. In a Massive environment, this is incredibly difficult to achieve unless one can find ways to narrow one's focus down to a select group. The second limitation was an inability to impact the world in a major way. The very good plotline quests and interactions with important NPCs gave a bit of an impression that my character was influencing things, but eventually I would have to step out of these moments to go grind orcs to make my elf bread (mmm... tasty!)

These limitations are (perhaps inevitably) linked to MMOs due to their emphasis on scale. Other people have discussed instancing as a way to carve out space within a larger world to achieve intimacy and impact. Perhaps that tool could work, and perhaps NWO will use it well. As DNO points out, only time will tell.

[foil-]

E.C.Patterson wrote...

Hellfire_RWS wrote...

I put the torch out, last week. I sat down, made a list of the things I need to finish (horses). When they are done, I'm turning off the lights, locking the door, and moving on.

While I do think the freedom to make your own private world and run it the way you want, is a great thing. It is no longer for me. Hopefully I can actually hang on to finish my projects before walking off.

:'(

Couldn't have said it better myself. 

I've never been much of a persistent world player.  I prefer the single player modules which tend to have a tighter story and definite beginning and end.  That said, I understand why M. Patterson is all frowny face.  The models you folks created at RWS got included in a lot of modules as well as PW and made it easier for them to tell their story.

I'm all for Neverwinter being a great adventure style game.  But I think it will struggle to offer the tight stories Neverwinter Nights could tell with some of its modules made by the very tallented writers and designers in this community.  Just for that, I would hope you come back once you've had a break.  Johny Ree was a huge loss and your group would be another large loss.  But you can't keep doing it if its not fun for you. 

I think NWN2 might have a small resurgence spurned by Steam Sales, realisation that it is unique, and some fallout from the popular fantasy games being released today which drive interest in fantasy games as a whole.  Hopefully you'll have an urge to return in the future.  After a forced 1 to 2 years away from the game, I'm ready to dip back into it again.  As for modelling, I've got a fantastic stick-man monster all drafted up.  I'll just need someone to do the animation.

Modifié par foil-, 05 août 2011 - 06:00 .