161 réponses à ce sujet

[kamal_]

The more I read about it, the more I am convinced the main difference between an MMO and a "online co-op rpg" is the size of the raids and lack of pvp. If WoW was only 5 man raids and didn't have pvp, it would be an "online co-op rpg".

[nicethugbert]

NWN DM wrote...

The reality of game development these days is that straight answers to straight questions will reveal just how lacking the title is in most aspects of what would be required to make it anything other than a "buy, play for a few months (if that) and forget about it" title.

IMO obviously... I could be wrong I suppose.

THIS!  So true.

Atari being evasive about an upcoming title is not new.  They like to drum up and gauge interest by yammering about the upcoming title long before it's too late to shut down the project.  They've does it with the NWN series, MoW for instance.

I hate it.  It's a blatant lack of creativity and cheapness and it shows in their catalog of games.  Most of their games are flash in the pan type garbage.  The worst fate you could wish on a game is to have Atari publish it.  Yeah, Atari sucks.  I don't like them.

[nicethugbert]

Hellfire_RWS wrote...

I will be glad to see NWO come along. I will probably even play it. My days of NWN1 and NWN2 are nearing an end. I'm so tired of trying to find a PW that suits me. Its far easier to find a good online game and play it with my friends without having some Crazy PVPer kill me and ruin my fun, or some power hungry admin of a server watching your every move making sure I play the way they want.

Everyone is so quick to point out what a PW can offer a MMO can't. Lets not forget there are things a MMO can offer no PW can.

I agree and I take this as a good argument for more PWs not less.  You can't avoid the need to be selective.  It's as true of games as it is of PWs.  So, the more selection you have, the better your chances of finding what you prefer, although it may take time.


NWN2 could have provided a much better selection if Atari hadn't sabotaged it.

[E.C.Patterson]

foil- wrote...

After a forced 1 to 2 years away from the game, I'm ready to dip back into it again.

:-)

[Hellfire_RWS]

I think its great people have the freedom to make their own world and by all means make many. The more choices the better. I would never suggest that someone not be allowed options.

I would prefer to play a PW over an MMO, BUT. As I have played over the years and watched PWs operate (from the inside, a whole bunch of them), the less I can stomach the thought of playing on them.

The issues I have with them really have never impacted me directly, but watching as they impact other people has turned me off of them completely.

In an MMO I can adventure, RP and have fun without worrying about a GM jumping on with a power trip. This is why I think NWO may be a step up for me. Sure I wont be able to make models or textures, but I can create an adventure for others to play. I can play adventures that others make, without unnecessary restriction from people wanting to impose their view of how to play a game.

*edited to remove hateful rant about PWs*

[M. Rieder]

I wonder if the NWO toolset will be a little less involved and quicker to produce adventures with. I like the control that the NWN2 toolset gives me, but the price in development time is heavy.

[Hellfire_RWS]

Take a look at the videos on youtube for the Star Trek Online foundry and it will give you a bit of an idea.

I opened the STO foundry and made a working mission (area, dialog, objective and completion) in about 15 min. you could really spruce it up with multiple areas and objectives in say.. 2ish hours or more.

[foil-]

kamal_ wrote...

The more I read about it, the more I am convinced the main difference between an MMO and a "online co-op rpg" is the size of the raids and lack of pvp. If WoW was only 5 man raids and didn't have pvp, it would be an "online co-op rpg".

I'll just repost what I posted on the other board in response to essentially the same statement you made on the other board

I won't disagree with that, but there are enough differences to warrant a
separate descriptor. To me, the elimination of PvP, guild type wars,
massive raiding parties, addition of more story components (although
that one is not implied in Co-op), and instances, really warrants a new
descriptor. I'm not at all interested in what MMO implies but have
significant interest in what Co-op implies. Add "story based" to that
descriptor and I'm even more interested.



By just using MMO as a catch all to mean every game where there is a
massive central meeting location, does these games that try to encourage
co-op a disservice. I find it more of a protectionist method to
belittle anything that non-MMOers would consider too simple or industry
controlled. And I fall into that category of non-MMOer.

...

I'm neither pessimistic or optimistic about Neverwinter. If it works,
it works. If it falls flat on its face, it will. But I'm not going to
encourage or hope for it to fall flat. I will give opinions and express
aspirations for its success. If it does everything well, it could
provide a Storm of Zehir (SoZ) type experience. People can take that or
leave it, but personally I loved SoZ so I'm looking forward to
Neverwinter creating something similar. I would say SoZ is the closest
example at what Cryptic appears to be making with Neverwinter but with
more of a social component (or single player if that's how you prefer
it).

[Dorateen]

foil- wrote...

I would say SoZ is the closest
example at what Cryptic appears to be making with Neverwinter but with
more of a social component (or single player if that's how you prefer
it).

If they allow single-player to create their own party, like SoZ, even through a co-op mode ala Baldur's Gate... then I'm all in.

But.... it appears to me that the combat mechanics are just lacking. Too action orientated, and not enough tactical rules-based play. I want to see dice rolls!

Time to invest in precious metals.

Harumph!

Modifié par Dorateen, 05 août 2011 - 05:01 .

[Quixal]

So far I am unimpressed, based on what little information is available. The key there though is that we still know very little. I will wait and see, though I am leaning slightly on the pessimistic side.

Dorateen wrote...
Time to invest in precious metals.

Do dwarves ever invest in anything else?

[MokahTGS]

Hellfire_RWS wrote...

Sure I wont be able to make models or textures, but I can create an adventure for others to play. I can play adventures that others make, without unnecessary restriction from people wanting to impose their view of how to play a game.

You can bet that I'll make something for NWO, and hopefully I won't be constantly hitting the restriction ceilings, which at this point is my biggest fear for NWO.

I play Champions Online, and for a simplistic hero adventure, its quite fun.  The gameplay is smooth, fun and hasn't gotten in the way of my playstyle, so from that viewpoint I think they will do well with NWO.  One of my biggest gripes with NWN/NWN2 was that control schemes used.  I prefer the MMO style to the topdown style.

Now, as far as content, I do see that Cryptic has problems fleshing out games.  In CoH that translates to nothing really to do aside from missions, which is fine to a point, but the "world" doesn't seem like a world...it feels more like a mall food court, where you go, get your nachos and move on to the next counter...to get more, higher level nachos.  Cryptic has even stated that NWO will be "content light" on release, so they have even warned us about this tendancy of theirs.

If NWO has a good core structure, and allows for enough building flexibility, then I think it will do well and be quite fun to play.  Do I expect to be able to build Jabberwocky in NWO?  No.  But I fully expect to be able to do something...I'd just love to see more of what that might be.

The more I read about the NWO Foundry, the more I'm convinced they are taking the STO Foundry and using it as a starting point.  I'm not sure that the NWO version will be a direct shelf copy of the STO one.  There is also a happy side effect to NWO being "content light" on release:  The foundry tools have a better chance of being fleshed out and better realized because Cryptic didn't spend 2 years writing a deep, engrossing SP campaign.  I've often thought of what the building community would have been like if both Bioware and Obsidian had focused more on the tools and less on the OCs...

Modifié par MokahTGS, 05 août 2011 - 06:59 .

[kevL]

HFire wrote ...

As I have played over the years and watched PWs operate (from the inside, a whole bunch of them), the less I can stomach the thought of playing on them.

That's why I left music. The only music I want to hear anymore is humble, honest, and sincere. If I detect a single note of ambition I turn it off.


Life's much better, gratz HF.

[kamal_]

Quixal wrote...

So far I am unimpressed, based on what little information is available. The key there though is that we still know very little. I will wait and see, though I am leaning slightly on the pessimistic side.

Dorateen wrote...
Time to invest in precious metals.

Do dwarves ever invest in anything else?

Orcsmashers. And Orcslicers. Oh yeah, and Orccrushers. And special beard combs. And grog.

[foil-]

kevL wrote...
 If I detect a single note of ambition I turn it off.


Life's much better, gratz HF.

I've never heard of that note.  Is it like A-flat?

Speeking of music, we picked up a Fender steel string guitar for rock band 3.  Its like the NWN2 toolset of rock band....Hard!

[kevL]

foil- wrote...

I've never heard of that note.  Is it like A-flat?

.. B natural

[dunniteowl]

Wouldn't a note of ambition be more like E major?

I'm just askin'...

dno

[kevL]

.. just sayin'


Cheers, D.

[I_Raps]

Quixal wrote...

Dorateen wrote...
Time to invest in precious metals.

Do dwarves ever invest in anything else?

Breweries, silly.

[dunniteowl]

I have it on relatively good authority that they also invest in Mugmaking facilities, Mining tool Manufacturing, Beard Braiding Salons.

B Natural is the note of talent, by the way. C sharp's for those who prefer to be pretty. What's the note you hear in a mine shaft?

[foil-]

dunniteowl wrote...

I have it on relatively good authority that they also invest in Mugmaking facilities, Mining tool Manufacturing, Beard Braiding Salons.

B Natural is the note of talent, by the way. C sharp's for those who prefer to be pretty. What's the note you hear in a mine shaft?

I assume it would be A-Minor

[dunniteowl]

A minor ftw. And if you drop a piano down a shaft, it's A-Flat Miner.

When NWO comes out, if someone can make a sidequest with that series of lines in it, then I'll give it the seal of approval.

dno

[AncientWolfgr]

I have high hopes for NWO, but I'm also skeptical- already had run ins with Cryptic over misinterpretation(s) and overbearing fanboism. (Not the sole factors in my skepticism though).

It's a trend that scares me that I see alot of games having- official forums *can* set the stage for customer buzz; brown nosing blinder bearing forum cop wannabe's and moderator's with less than kindergarten social skills can drive hundreds of potential consumers away before a game even gets off the ground.

Everyone joining a forum *usually* is there because they have interest in it- and given the complexity of games now, you can get valuable insight from many different angles. Ive seen people merely mention words like "pvp" or "pw", and even "rp" on various sites, only to see lynch mobs standing there with buckets of sand. Heck, the most (recent) laughable incursion involved the use of the term "hak" and "emu".

The market is going to continue to be tough on developers, but I think alot of their troubles are self inflicted. 1 torqued off customer can result in 100's of people not even giving a product a chance, and you never hear from a satisfied one. Sad Panda, but thats marketing now.

[dunniteowl]

Umm, don't lynch mobs usually carry rope? And yes the buzz that can be generated from an "Official Site" can work as a sort of clarion call for folks already with an interest and the hope is generally that those folks will tell their friends, and maybe even make suggestions while standing next to strangers at the gaming shelf in the computer department.

Fortunately, this particular group of folks is a bit higher level than kindergarten. And I have been assured that the majority of forum cops and moderators can at least pass a written test for the 5th grade, so you're in relatively safe hands here.

AS to the NWO forums -- I've been too busy with other things and I shudder at the thought of getting sucked into them at this point in time. As to wording and it's ability to drive some to violent implication, well that's another story. Here, though, we tend to help folks realize that some abbreviated terms might have more than one meaning. Again on the NWO forums, I cannot say.

Like you, I have high HOPES for the release of NWO. It'd be really nice to have some concretized form of wording. Co-Op play sounds more like a rehash of verbage to make it sound more like Guild Wars, Far Cry or Medal of Honor. And while that's cool, I believe there's a fair argument that, semantically, an MMO also regularly engages in Co-op play, so ... I reserve judgment and remain hopeful, though without Great Expectations.

I know Cryptic keeps saying it's not an MMO, but I think that may be more word dicing to avoid alienating their largest potential base of initial players (that would be those of us who play NWN and NWN2.) I also remain hopeful, though widely skeptical, of their toolset, Forge, which I also believe may be able to do some nice things for a player base, but if it's anything like City of Heroes, City of Villains, it will remain more limited in usefulness than the Unreal Tournament Map Editor, which can at least create totally new areas that don't require the rest of the original game's maps to play on.

I see Forge as sort of a cross between Oblivion: The Elder Scrolls' toolset editor and some of the scenario editors you used to be able to find in wargames, like in Napolean's Battles, or Panzer General, where you could change units, encounter rules, but not build entirely new maps, just add scenarios onto what's already there. In both cases, they required the original game maps to be used or added onto, without exception and they were extremely limited in scope as to what you could do. You certainly couldn't change the outcomes of the originals and, due to the nature of the Online component (which is NOT an MMO, I promise!) of the multiplayer aspects, the additional missions are going to be basically small quests for experience and maybe a few really creative uses by a few. By and large, I suspect, though, that the Forge editor will be found to be quite limitiing to folks who are used to the power and freedom (even with the warts on NWN and NWN2s toolsets, they are quite advanced) of superior tools.

That said, with something like that, maybe I can actually complete a scenario side quest.

Again, I have to reiterate my "Wait and See" point of view.

dunniteowl

[kamal_]

I've been reading over there regularly. I havnt seen overbearing mods. I have seen "I know better than you" and "it'll have x despite no evidence or a statement from devs it won't have x" forum posters.

/for examples of the latter look to the DA: origins will get multiplayer and PWs any day now folks.

[AncientWolfgr]

kamal_ wrote...

/for examples of the latter look to the DA: origins will get multiplayer and PWs any day now folks.

Where is this information?