To be fair, that comic hurt all the squadmates from good kid Kaidan to fugitive Tali. I take that comic with a grain of salt.Collider wrote...
That's definitely going too far.x2. Even the way they described her in the comic: "Liara, who like all asari, was as smart as she was beautiful."
I hope they get rid of the Liara favoritism. And the asari favoritism.
There are and will be plenty of Liara fans without having to market her so blatantly.
Can we give Liara a rest for ME3?
Débuté par
DPSSOC
, juin 10 2011 03:13
#51
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 12:52
Mr.House
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Retour en haut
#52
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 01:10
Neria Rose
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Menycet wrote...
Wishing for a character to die just because you don't like them is so mature. <_<
It's not about maturity. If you can kill the characters you don't like, then you don't have any risk of having to stomach them later (unless, of course, there are flashbacks). So it's a really effective way of making the game more enjoyable for yourself.
Suffice it to say, if I get the option to let Liara die, I will definitely be taking it. As it is, I'm not holding out too much hope for it. I'd be grateful to just be able to
#53
Guest_Fiddles_stix_*
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 01:17
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@Wizz - So your issue is what I said it was good to know 
.
And hey if you get around to it look at my edit. Where I point out that yes Liara is a deus ex machina and yes that is a lazy method of story telling. I seem to constantly be repeating myself but as I keep saying Liara having more screen time does not diminish the worth of the other characters. Ash is still into poetry and Kaidan is still a reserved guy. In most narratives it's very difficult to maintain momentum with more than three or four characters as you get too many conflicting opinions.
It's fine that you think it should have been someone else. I disagree based on Liara's characteristics because they appeal to me. I understand that you might not like them. Don't take it personally. Besides in some of the tweets Hudson has said the VS will have a larger role to play in ME3.
. And hey if you get around to it look at my edit. Where I point out that yes Liara is a deus ex machina and yes that is a lazy method of story telling. I seem to constantly be repeating myself but as I keep saying Liara having more screen time does not diminish the worth of the other characters. Ash is still into poetry and Kaidan is still a reserved guy. In most narratives it's very difficult to maintain momentum with more than three or four characters as you get too many conflicting opinions.
It's fine that you think it should have been someone else. I disagree based on Liara's characteristics because they appeal to me. I understand that you might not like them. Don't take it personally. Besides in some of the tweets Hudson has said the VS will have a larger role to play in ME3.
#54
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 01:22
Labrev
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Mr.House wrote...
To be fair, that comic hurt all the squadmates from good kid Kaidan to fugitive Tali. I take that comic with a grain of salt.Collider wrote...
That's definitely going too far.x2. Even the way they described her in the comic: "Liara, who like all asari, was as smart as she was beautiful."
I hope they get rid of the Liara favoritism. And the asari favoritism.
There are and will be plenty of Liara fans without having to market her so blatantly.
Yeah but the majority of us know the story anyway. "Good kid" is a very generic term. "Fugitive" well, we know what they mean. She was on the run.
Laira, beautiful? <_< I'll begrudingly accept "cute."
#55
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 01:23
Mr.House
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Nope, Liara will survive no matter what, but you will have to choose between Garrus and TaliNeria Rose wrote...
Menycet wrote...
Wishing for a character to die just because you don't like them is so mature. <_<
It's not about maturity. If you can kill the characters you don't like, then you don't have any risk of having to stomach them later (unless, of course, there are flashbacks). So it's a really effective way of making the game more enjoyable for yourself.
Suffice it to say, if I get the option to let Liara die, I will definitely be taking it. As it is, I'm not holding out too much hope for it. I'd be grateful to just be able tostick her in a crate on the Normandy and jettison her out into spaceignore her on the ship and not be required to interact with her for most of the game.
#56
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 01:24
Mr.House
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Shepard is younger then Kaidan, he should not be calling Kaidan a kid at all, nor mispell his nameHah Yes Reapers wrote...
Yeah but the majority of us know the story anyway. "Good kid" is a very generic term. "Fugitive" well, we know what they mean. She was on the run.
Laira, beautiful? <_< I'll begrudingly accept "cute."
![=]](https://lvlt.forum.bioware.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sideways.png)
Modifié par Mr.House, 10 juin 2011 - 01:26 .
#57
Guest_Trust_*
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 01:27
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You forgot "little"Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
"Fugitive" well, we know what they mean. She was on the run.
#58
Guest_Fiddles_stix_*
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 01:30
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Mr.House wrote...
Nope, Liara will survive no matter what, but you will have to choose between Garrus and TaliNeria Rose wrote...
Menycet wrote...
Wishing for a character to die just because you don't like them is so mature. <_<
It's not about maturity. If you can kill the characters you don't like, then you don't have any risk of having to stomach them later (unless, of course, there are flashbacks). So it's a really effective way of making the game more enjoyable for yourself.
Suffice it to say, if I get the option to let Liara die, I will definitely be taking it. As it is, I'm not holding out too much hope for it. I'd be grateful to just be able tostick her in a crate on the Normandy and jettison her out into spaceignore her on the ship and not be required to interact with her for most of the game.
I like you House, you understand. Keep up the good work!
#59
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 02:07
Unata
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First time I played ME1 I had the impression that Liara was critical to the story, how you treat her is totally up to the player though, you don't "have" to take her along on missions, once aboard you can ignore her totally but she is required to advance the storyline. As some others pointed out Wrex and Garrus you could leave behind, Kaidan or Ashley you can kill off, the only other character that appears to have some part in the total plot is Tali and I believe that is only to link the Migrant Fleet to Shepard in ME2.
Since Liara has been inside your head so to speak, she realizes at some level that there is something about Shepard that is very important to the rest of the Galaxy, thus agrees to help get Shep's body back from Shadow Broker in ME2, So, after going through all of happenings in ME1 and then going after your body I can see some hardening of her personality so the change in ME2 isn't a stretch to me at all.
You don't have to like any of the squad mates, in fact you can simply use what ever ones for what ever mission and ignore them the rest of the time, I have one play through from ME1 > ME2 where I did just that, no picture on my desk in ME2.
It is however Bioware's story and if you don't like how it plays out so far, don't play it, each of the squad mates in either of the games adds color, flavor, or flare to the whole story, you don't have to like any section of it, but to deny yourself any or part of it is to short change yourself in the total experience.
Since Liara has been inside your head so to speak, she realizes at some level that there is something about Shepard that is very important to the rest of the Galaxy, thus agrees to help get Shep's body back from Shadow Broker in ME2, So, after going through all of happenings in ME1 and then going after your body I can see some hardening of her personality so the change in ME2 isn't a stretch to me at all.
You don't have to like any of the squad mates, in fact you can simply use what ever ones for what ever mission and ignore them the rest of the time, I have one play through from ME1 > ME2 where I did just that, no picture on my desk in ME2.
It is however Bioware's story and if you don't like how it plays out so far, don't play it, each of the squad mates in either of the games adds color, flavor, or flare to the whole story, you don't have to like any section of it, but to deny yourself any or part of it is to short change yourself in the total experience.
#60
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 03:11
Commander_Adept
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I'm good on Liara, too. She's annoying and personality-less. Also... "You mean THIS body?!"
Liara was completely idiotic the entirety of LotSB. Her voice grates on my brain as well.
But of course, Miranda was almost as bad in Mass 2 (I do dislike her more than Liara, though that may have to do with being on the wrong side of the Jack fight).
I think that the only characters who should really be in the middle of everything are the ones you bring to missions most often.
Liara was completely idiotic the entirety of LotSB. Her voice grates on my brain as well.
But of course, Miranda was almost as bad in Mass 2 (I do dislike her more than Liara, though that may have to do with being on the wrong side of the Jack fight).
I think that the only characters who should really be in the middle of everything are the ones you bring to missions most often.
#61
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 03:15
jlb524
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I like when Garrus/Tali fans complain about favoritism...it's not like those characters were put into every game as full squadmates, with a romance added in cuz they all asked for one.
#62
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Posté 10 juin 2011 - 03:18
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Neria Rose wrote...
Menycet wrote...
Wishing for a character to die just because you don't like them is so mature. <_<
It's not about maturity. If you can kill the characters you don't like, then you don't have any risk of having to stomach them later (unless, of course, there are flashbacks). So it's a really effective way of making the game more enjoyable for yourself.
Suffice it to say, if I get the option to let Liara die, I will definitely be taking it. As it is, I'm not holding out too much hope for it. I'd be grateful to just be able tostick her in a crate on the Normandy and jettison her out into spaceignore her on the ship and not be required to interact with her for most of the game.
Nah, it's about psychopathy/sociopathy. In real life, you have to deal with people who irritate you. If your response to this is, "It's not real life, it's a game," you're not role-playing, you're meta-gaming, in which case no one has to respect your opinion on the matter.
Modifié par yorkj86, 10 juin 2011 - 03:19 .
#63
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 03:20
Badpie
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jlb524 wrote...
I like when Garrus/Tali fans complain about favoritism...it's not like those characters were put into every game as full squadmates, with a romance added in cuz they all asked for one.
This. And I certainly don't begrudge the idea that those fans wanted something and they got it. I mean hooray for them. But then you can't go and get p*ssy about other fan pandering either.
#64
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 03:33
jlb524
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Badpie wrote...
jlb524 wrote...
I like when Garrus/Tali fans complain about favoritism...it's not like those characters were put into every game as full squadmates, with a romance added in cuz they all asked for one.
This. And I certainly don't begrudge the idea that those fans wanted something and they got it. I mean hooray for them. But then you can't go and get p*ssy about other fan pandering either.
Yes, I hate a certain attitude that most seem to have around here...if something is added that doesn't benefit them, it's 'pandering' while if it does, it's totally not pandering at all and is a completely 'legit' decision by the devs.
#65
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 04:07
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I don't think it's fair to be angry about Liara being given special treatment. I certainly can't say Liara was one of my favorites in Mass Effect 1, but she clearly was for a sizeable number of people.
Personally I think a lot of Liara's 'favoritism' happened as a result of circumstance.
For example:
Why was Liara the one to find Shepard's body?
Because the idea of having a former squadmate go on a mission to save Shepard is a great idea for a story, and of course drama is increased by having or at least suggesting some kind of romantic connection between said character and Shepard.
As a result, Liara was kind of the only option for this. As after all, canonically, one of the VS's has to have died and given that there is no set in stone 'canon' VS, whichever one gets picked would be the established one and it wouldn't make much sense if say, Kaidan was the one to save Shepard if in my universe Ashley was the one who survived.
Given that Liara couldn't die, it made sense for it to be her. Plus, given that Liara could be romanceable by a male or female Shepard it also helped not establish a canon Shepard 'gender'. Again, if it had been Ashley going out to save Shepard people would naturally assume it was a male Shepard. The opposite would apply if it was Kaidan.
Ergo, the fact that she was the only one who COULD be the one, combined with the fact that by doing it, it helps not imply a specific for gender made her ideal.
THAT SAID if there is one thing that truly made me more pissed then a pub full of Irishmen on Saint Patrick's day, it was the way the PS3 intro comic for Mass Effect 2 favored her over all the others.
Kaidan gets introduced as 'a good kid' (despite being two years OLDER than Shepard) Ashley gets a standard 'pure soldier' description. In fact, every other major squadmate (Garrus, Tali, Wrex) only get like one sentance worth of description and the drawing for them sucked... I still can't get over how they made Wrex look like Emperor Palpatine.
But Liara? Whole bloody paragraph that bragged about her like she was the second coming of every major religious figure of every religion ever rolled into one singular divine entity sent from heaven in a silver chariot to lead us all to the promised land.
Seriously, they actually decided to randomly use the line:
"Like all Asari, as beautiful as she was intelligent."
Like, seriously?
If you do a playthrough where Shepard romances no one, having a line this romanticized to describe someone you have an at best platonic business based friendship with is just wierd.
Plus lest we forget the difference between pictures depending on who you choose in a romance conflict:
(first of all, note that regardless of whether it's Ashley or Kaidan as the other in the romance conflict scene, they are always in the background while Liara is front and center and might as well be wearing a 'pick me!' t-shirt)
For Liara:
Right up in front of the frame, in plain sight and lovingly detailed with care and attention.
Her smile and the way she pushes her boobies together is clearly telling you that you made the 'right' choice.
For Ashley (or Kaidan):
Like, twenty feet away from the frame and even when zoomed in you can barely see their facial features.
Implying that they are distanced and therefore you made the 'wrong' choice.
I know I shouldn't be bothered by this, and I'm not (truthfully the fact that Liara is given special treatment is the least of this comic's problems). I'm not going to go around relentlessly insulting and judging the Liara fanbase for it, it's not like it's their fault (plus, for some time they were good to us VS fans). The fact that Ashley's back and a Spectre is like Christmas and birthdays rolled into one. But at the same time, this really goes beyond the idea of Liara being given good roles and enters the realm of Liara being Bioware's pet.
I don't mind the idea of Liara having a huge important role, I don't mind the idea of Liara remaining a major part of the story. If it keeps her fans happy, why should I complain? Ashley's back now, I've gotten MY wish, I see no reason to demand that Liara be removed out of minor resentment I feel at Liara constantly getting the better deal.
But still, can we at LEAST stop with this sh*t?
Personally I think a lot of Liara's 'favoritism' happened as a result of circumstance.
For example:
Why was Liara the one to find Shepard's body?
Because the idea of having a former squadmate go on a mission to save Shepard is a great idea for a story, and of course drama is increased by having or at least suggesting some kind of romantic connection between said character and Shepard.
As a result, Liara was kind of the only option for this. As after all, canonically, one of the VS's has to have died and given that there is no set in stone 'canon' VS, whichever one gets picked would be the established one and it wouldn't make much sense if say, Kaidan was the one to save Shepard if in my universe Ashley was the one who survived.
Given that Liara couldn't die, it made sense for it to be her. Plus, given that Liara could be romanceable by a male or female Shepard it also helped not establish a canon Shepard 'gender'. Again, if it had been Ashley going out to save Shepard people would naturally assume it was a male Shepard. The opposite would apply if it was Kaidan.
Ergo, the fact that she was the only one who COULD be the one, combined with the fact that by doing it, it helps not imply a specific for gender made her ideal.
THAT SAID if there is one thing that truly made me more pissed then a pub full of Irishmen on Saint Patrick's day, it was the way the PS3 intro comic for Mass Effect 2 favored her over all the others.
Kaidan gets introduced as 'a good kid' (despite being two years OLDER than Shepard) Ashley gets a standard 'pure soldier' description. In fact, every other major squadmate (Garrus, Tali, Wrex) only get like one sentance worth of description and the drawing for them sucked... I still can't get over how they made Wrex look like Emperor Palpatine.
But Liara? Whole bloody paragraph that bragged about her like she was the second coming of every major religious figure of every religion ever rolled into one singular divine entity sent from heaven in a silver chariot to lead us all to the promised land.
Seriously, they actually decided to randomly use the line:
"Like all Asari, as beautiful as she was intelligent."
Like, seriously?
If you do a playthrough where Shepard romances no one, having a line this romanticized to describe someone you have an at best platonic business based friendship with is just wierd.
Plus lest we forget the difference between pictures depending on who you choose in a romance conflict:
(first of all, note that regardless of whether it's Ashley or Kaidan as the other in the romance conflict scene, they are always in the background while Liara is front and center and might as well be wearing a 'pick me!' t-shirt)
For Liara:
Right up in front of the frame, in plain sight and lovingly detailed with care and attention.
Her smile and the way she pushes her boobies together is clearly telling you that you made the 'right' choice.
For Ashley (or Kaidan):
Like, twenty feet away from the frame and even when zoomed in you can barely see their facial features.
Implying that they are distanced and therefore you made the 'wrong' choice.
I know I shouldn't be bothered by this, and I'm not (truthfully the fact that Liara is given special treatment is the least of this comic's problems). I'm not going to go around relentlessly insulting and judging the Liara fanbase for it, it's not like it's their fault (plus, for some time they were good to us VS fans). The fact that Ashley's back and a Spectre is like Christmas and birthdays rolled into one. But at the same time, this really goes beyond the idea of Liara being given good roles and enters the realm of Liara being Bioware's pet.
I don't mind the idea of Liara having a huge important role, I don't mind the idea of Liara remaining a major part of the story. If it keeps her fans happy, why should I complain? Ashley's back now, I've gotten MY wish, I see no reason to demand that Liara be removed out of minor resentment I feel at Liara constantly getting the better deal.
But still, can we at LEAST stop with this sh*t?
Modifié par V-rex, 10 juin 2011 - 04:17 .
#66
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 04:09
PMC65
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Senior Cinco wrote...
Ieldra2 wrote...(1) She the only team member who can't die
No..She doesn't die because she ISN'T a team member.
Actually Joker is the only team member that cannot die ... He not only goes on the suicide mission but will survive even if everyone else, Shepard included dies.
#67
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 04:11
ADLegend21
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^All of this.jlb524 wrote...
Badpie wrote...
jlb524 wrote...
I like when Garrus/Tali fans complain about favoritism...it's not like those characters were put into every game as full squadmates, with a romance added in cuz they all asked for one.
This. And I certainly don't begrudge the idea that those fans wanted something and they got it. I mean hooray for them. But then you can't go and get p*ssy about other fan pandering either.
Yes, I hate a certain attitude that most seem to have around here...if something is added that doesn't benefit them, it's 'pandering' while if it does, it's totally not pandering at all and is a completely 'legit' decision by the devs.
#68
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 04:13
Commander_Adept
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Jack and Garrus are (all) my Shepard's best friends/lover depending on what gender that particular Shep is (I've done Tali and Thane, too. Don't care about any prize or Miranda), and in my games, they better have more screentime than ****ing Liara. God damn
#70
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 04:28
Xalen
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jlb524 wrote...
I like when Garrus/Tali fans complain about favoritism...it's not like those characters were put into every game as full squadmates, with a romance added in cuz they all asked for one.
Sigh...This thread is going in circles. Let's repeat again.
Was Garrus a mandatory squadmate in ME1? Was Tali in ME2?
Was Garrus necessary to advance the plot in ME1? Tali at least had a plot coupon, but both were not present in breifing that much.
Did Garrus/Tali recover Shepards body and thus made ME2 possible?
Did Garrus/Tali receive their own comics and DLC?
Did Garrus/Tali become probably the most powerful person in the Galaxy?
Nope. All that was Liara.
Liara is very close to being the second biggest Mary Sue of ME universe
I know it's all fits very well in her story arc, and I know that's how the story is written, but Wizz put it very well:
Cause and effect, get it?Wizz wrote...
Liara isn't essential because she is Shadow Broker, she is Shadow Broker because she is essential
Actually, I'm not quite thrilled about Garrus and Tali being permanent squadmates either. I all for equality of squadmates roles, so as much as I love Garrus (very, very much) I would be ok with him not being a permanent squadmate if others receive the same treatment. And as much as I dislike Tali, I would be ok with her being a squadmate if others were too (tell me honestly, what are the chances of Jack and Zaeed being permanent? And they are in my top 5. Is that fair?). But I understand hell will break loose if Garrus or Tali will not be included in ME3.
However, fanservice and favoritism are different things (neither is very good btw). Fanservice is at least created in response to fans, favoritism is inherently present in the story. That's were all the complaints about "forced role" come from.
Garrus/Tali squadmate and romance are fanservice, Liara's plot involvement is favoritism.
Modifié par Xalen, 10 juin 2011 - 04:50 .
#71
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 04:34
Barquiel
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Xalen wrote...
Was Garrus a mandatory squadmate in ME1? Was Tali in ME2?
Was Garrus necessary to advance the plot in ME1? Tali at least had a plot coupon, but both were not present in breifing that much.
Did Garrus/Tali recover Shepards body and thus made ME2 possible?
Did Garrus/Tali receive their own comics and DLC?
Did Garrus/Tali become probably the most powerful person in the Galaxy?
Nope. All that was Liara.
And who has more screentime + dialogue throughout the series (let alone litographs, t-shirts, etc.)? Tali/Garrus or Liara?
#72
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 04:36
PMC65
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Commander_Adept wrote...
Jack and Garrus are (all) my Shepard's best friends/lover depending on what gender that particular Shep is (I've done Tali and Thane, too. Don't care about any prize or Miranda), and in my games, they better have more screentime than ****ing Liara. God damn
With Garrus you shouldn't worry ...
He has had more screentime ability then Liara or the VS so your good. After all, he was a member in both ME1 & ME2 almost from the start, plus you can take him on all DLC's that members are allowed.
Follow that up with him being confirmed as an ME3 squadmate - BINGO!
Jack, on the other hand ... No word yet on her
#73
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 04:41
Xalen
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Barquiel wrote...
And who has more screentime + dialogue throughout the series (let alone litographs, t-shirts, etc.)? Tali/Garrus or Liara?
But this thread isn't about screentime and dialogue, is it? We are talking about her role in the story
(Alright, I see my mistake, shouldn't have mentioned the briefings, since it's screentime. But the rest is still valid)
#74
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 07:09
Neria Rose
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Mr.House wrote...
Nope, Liara will survive no matter what, but you will have to choose between Garrus and TaliNeria Rose wrote...
Menycet wrote...
Wishing for a character to die just because you don't like them is so mature. <_<
It's not about maturity. If you can kill the characters you don't like, then you don't have any risk of having to stomach them later (unless, of course, there are flashbacks). So it's a really effective way of making the game more enjoyable for yourself.
Suffice it to say, if I get the option to let Liara die, I will definitely be taking it. As it is, I'm not holding out too much hope for it. I'd be grateful to just be able tostick her in a crate on the Normandy and jettison her out into spaceignore her on the ship and not be required to interact with her for most of the game.
Sorry, Tali, bye! That was easy
(*hides* Don't kill me, Tali fans, please!)
#75
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 07:18
Neria Rose
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yorkj86 wrote...
Nah, it's about psychopathy/sociopathy. In real life, you have to deal with people who irritate you. If your response to this is, "It's not real life, it's a game," you're not role-playing, you're meta-gaming, in which case no one has to respect your opinion on the matter.
You also have the option to tell said people in real life to stuff a sock in it and buzz off. Wanting to get rid of a fictional character you don't like doesn't make you a sociopath. Nor does having your Shepard want to get rid of the one being he/she greatly dislikes make him/her a sociopath.
